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  1. #31
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    When you cycle carbs, you don't gain muscle WHILE you lose fat as you say. You alternate periods of fat loss and periods of muscle gain quickly. It's different.

    I do that from time to time too.. I cut during the morning with no carb and a lot of cardio, then work out and switch the diet to high cal/high carb until the end of the day.
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    Question

    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    JonM81,

    That is a question that can't be adequately answered without a LOT more info. But as a start, I consider 1.5 grams ofprotein per lb of bodyweight to be the minimal amount to be consumed by a serious trainee.

    Iron Addict
    Should I be using my lean body mass or my actual weight when figuring this out?
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  3. #33
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    I have approximately 50 trainees doing it at the moment. And yes, it works, that simple. As goal220 you need to be precise, and work on dialing the timing and macro nutrients. If you are not willing to pay close attention, or pay someone to work with you that knows how such as myself or other trainers that use this method you should just stick with bulking cutting as this allows you to be much looser with the diet.

    Iron Addict
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  4. #34
    Phoenix Nainoa's Avatar
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    As I agree with Much of what IA has said, I figured I'd chime in with my own experience on things I've gone through...

    In 16 months of training... Having to also work around 2 injuries, and starting out with "Weak leg work" from a knee dislocation, I've added 20-23 pounds of lean mass. I started out with a light "Cut" as I was at 16.8% body fat in the begining... By my 5th month I was at 10.6% body fat... And had some somewhat strange plateau issues in strength that I wrestled with... I went to a "Moderate Bulk" of around 200-300 cals over maintence, and I started putting on muscle like crazy, while putting on a titch more fat than I was comfortable with... Not a lot... As long as I stay "Active" my body damn near keeps itself lean.
    It's probably worth noting that my best gains came in the Span of Month 6-10, during which time I did HST, and a Homebrew workout I called DDC... Where 80% of the routine was Deads, Dips and chins.

    Overtime I found that I could drop the cals down to as low as 150 over maintence, and still make good gains, with out the excess fat gains.

    Then on Christmas I suffered my shoulder injury... So I went into a cut... I cut too hard (-600 under maintence at one point.) I got sick as a dog, and the atrophy of my right side, (The injured shoulder) went into over drive!

    I brought my cals back up, took some old glutamine I had laying around and got better almost instantly...

    Now my shoulder is healthy enough to let me work normal on everything except I'm still making a comeback with my right... And I can't "Push it" with over head work, Benching, and still can't do dips with out some serious discomfort...

    IA I'm curious if you can help me figure out what I should do as far as my nutritional plan... The plan had been to bulk until the start of March... Then cut into May-June... My "Emotional Goal" was to get that nice ripped six pack to show...

    Now though I'm in a state where I need to bulk to get back what I lost, and make the gains I'd like to see in other areas... And it's probably going to take me into May to really get back & ahead to where I want to be for a cut...

    Is there something you'd reccomend in the planning, or links you think would be key to read, to get that Six pack showing tight by say The 4th of July... Or should I just settle for getting there by Septemberish, and be happy with the "Abs covered by a thin vail of fat" look until then?

    Thanks
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  5. #35
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    Depends on what your current BF% is now.

    Iron Addict
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    Depends on what your current BF% is now.

    Iron Addict

    To give you a "Tight number" I would have to have my buddy with the calipers come over and test me again. (My electro scale thing says I'm at 28%! something is whack with that thing.) His calipers 2 weeks ago said 11.5%... And I haven't really changed... Actually I look more cut now, but I'm sure that's due to regaining muscle I lost to atrophy.
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  7. #37
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    How many abs are showing flexed and in good light?

    IA
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    How many abs are showing flexed and in good light?

    IA
    My serratus is rocking (I'm rather proud of those!) I've got a nice frame made by my obliques... My top two abs show rather well... In the right light, you can see a valley down the middle the rectus... If I put my hands behind my head and flex back you can see the "Notches" of the top two abs meeting the next two, and then the line of my rectus trails down into the frame made by my obliques...

    Looks like a truck grill turned sideways, being pushed up into a blanket.

    Does that make sense?
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  9. #39
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    Then getting there by June sounds very doable.

    IA
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    Then getting there by June sounds very doable.

    IA
    I just have one hell of a time getting under 10%... I've only been able to get under 10% (Non-Illness related) once in my life, and that took like 2 months of retarded intenisty, and proper dieting... Then like 6 weeks later, I bounced right back up to 11%...

    Seems like 11-16% is the zone my body loves to be in... (I was the fat kid in HS, then my body cut down on it's own and haven't hit 17% or higher since.)

    I've kind of set myself to the thinking that to get my body to that sub 10% range and keep it there that it has to take a longer duration to sort of "Convince" my body that this is it's new natural state.

    I suppose I should tackle one problem at a time, in getting the shoulder back to 110% first...

    Thanks for the encouragement!
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  11. #41
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    When you cycle carbs, you don't gain muscle WHILE you lose fat as you say. You alternate periods of fat loss and periods of muscle gain quickly. It's different.

    I do that from time to time too.. I cut during the morning with no carb and a lot of cardio, then work out and switch the diet to high cal/high carb until the end of the day.
    You really can though if you do it right.

    There is a key to low carb diets. The "induction" phase as Atkins calls it is EXTREMELY important. It is basically a period of 2 weeks at less than 20 grams per day.

    Normally human beings would produce enough enzymes to use fat for fuel (lipase). But because of our diets with a high supply of carbohydrates, the enzyme is hardly produced by most people anymore.

    When you "decarb" for 2 weeks, your body adapts and begins producing more of this enzyme, enabling you to digest fat more efficiently.

    The biggest mistake that people make doing these diets is they gradually reduce carbs. This makes you miserable as your brain is looking for the carbs for fuel (the brain GLADLY burns ketones for fuel, but has to be "enabled" to do this). You NEED the induction period to burn fat efficiently.

    You will need to eat a TON of fat (at least initially) because your body is not efficient at burning it for fuel.

    Regarding fat loss while gaining muscle, you can do it. Your perception may be that you are LOSING size because you lose water initially with low carb diets (each gram of carbs holds 4 grams of water), but this evens out as your hormones (aldosterone) return to normal.
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  12. #42
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    fantastic post IA
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  13. #43
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    I was reading your fat loss article on your website, very interesting as well.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    I have approximately 50 trainees doing it at the moment. And yes, it works, that simple. As goal220 you need to be precise, and work on dialing the timing and macro nutrients. If you are not willing to pay close attention, or pay someone to work with you that knows how such as myself or other trainers that use this method you should just stick with bulking cutting as this allows you to be much looser with the diet.

    Iron Addict
    As I said I don't disagree that it can work. My experience tells me that it can indeed work TO SOME EXTENT.

    But personaly I'd try to use these techniques more to train to gain muscle with as little fat as possible, or to lose fat and as little muscle as possible, rather than trying to really lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1
    You really can though if you do it right.

    There is a key to low carb diets. The "induction" phase as Atkins calls it is EXTREMELY important. It is basically a period of 2 weeks at less than 20 grams per day.

    Normally human beings would produce enough enzymes to use fat for fuel (lipase). But because of our diets with a high supply of carbohydrates, the enzyme is hardly produced by most people anymore.

    When you "decarb" for 2 weeks, your body adapts and begins producing more of this enzyme, enabling you to digest fat more efficiently.

    The biggest mistake that people make doing these diets is they gradually reduce carbs. This makes you miserable as your brain is looking for the carbs for fuel (the brain GLADLY burns ketones for fuel, but has to be "enabled" to do this). You NEED the induction period to burn fat efficiently.

    You will need to eat a TON of fat (at least initially) because your body is not efficient at burning it for fuel.



    The thing however is that your level of leptin is higher when you start a cut. This helps to lose fat. The more you wait the more you turn into starvation mode.

    The UD2 is interesting because it combines depletion workouts at the beginning of the cutting phase, which make the muscle cells more effective at burning fat - a little bit like you explained -, and cycles calories so that the metabolism and leptin are always high.


    Regarding fat loss while gaining muscle, you can do it. Your perception may be that you are LOSING size because you lose water initially with low carb diets (each gram of carbs holds 4 grams of water), but this evens out as your hormones (aldosterone) return to normal.
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. you're talking about losing fat and gaining muscle AT THE SAME TIME or losing fat during the low carb period and gain muscle during a high calory/carb period?
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  16. #46
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    The thing however is that your level of leptin is higher when you start a cut. This helps to lose fat. The more you wait the more you turn into starvation mode.

    The UD2 is interesting because it combines depletion workouts at the beginning of the cutting phase, which make the muscle cells more effective at burning fat - a little bit like you explained -, and cycles calories so that the metabolism and leptin are always high.




    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. you're talking about losing fat and gaining muscle AT THE SAME TIME or losing fat during the low carb period and gain muscle during a high calory/carb period?
    The reason you never go into starvation mode is because your calories are high as is your fat content. The body does not panic AS LONG AS THE CALORIES AND FAT REMAIN HIGH. Bodybuilders typically fail at low carb diets because they simply can't understand the need to keep fat high.

    Once you do this type of diet, you will understand that a "calorie is a calorie" is pure bull****.

    You can definately lose bodyfat while building muscle.

    As a matter of fact, I have done this diet and PUT ON muscle while not training. It's the protein content. It really is the way we are designed to eat, and it optimizes your metabolism. Without getting preachy, humans ARE NOT designed to eat grains (grasses). We are meat and vegetable eaters, with fruits in moderation only at certain times of the year.

    The only thing I can say, is to sincerely try this type of diet. It's the only way to understand the profound physical and emotional changes you go through while doing it. How does clear thinking sound? Even energy? It does take skill as a bodybuilder to avoid flattening out after the initial stages.

    Lest you think this is new, Vince Gironda used to recommend it to his students who needed to cut up. I used to read that by him and think he was crazy, until I gained too much bodyfat. The "tuna and water" diets put people in ketosis, but the fat was too low so the diets caused muscle loss.

    Do I do it all the time? Nope. It is just too difficult to do in this country. But as DIETS go, it is the best.
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  17. #47
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    These diets are not the easiest to do, but is the trainee will persavere, and KEEP THE FAT CONTENT high enough as Defiant stated they do allow muscle to be built while dropping body-fat. And again, NO it is not an optimal situation. But if you need to drop bodyfat anyway, why not optimize the time and build size and strength instead of hoping to maintain or not lose too much.

    Most people make the following mistakes when dieting and FAIL.

    Too many carbs while dieting. Carbs should be LOW to ZERO unless PWO or specific carb up periods.

    People get to agressive and end up catabolic. A person with a basal metabolic rate of 3000 kcals often goes on a 1500 kcal diet and loses muscle and strength and a fast pace and then wonders why.

    People implement HIIT cardio for the first time when dieting. Unless you already have a good CV base you should be doing low intensity cardio when dieting. Or start VERY conservatively and work up to higher levels as time goes by.

    People use the weight room to burn calories. What a horibly misguided approach. You should still be focusing on strength and mass when dieting and if anything volume should come down a notch, not up. Switching to a boatload of high rep isolation lifts when dieting is a great way to lose a ton of strength.

    These are the basics. There are more,but I gotta go eat

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  18. #48
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    These diets are not the easiest to do, Iron Addict
    I find them easy to do PHYSICALLY, it is SOCIALLY that trips me up (Beer, Pasta, Hoagies etc.)
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  19. #49
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    Hunger is not a problem, but some people get carb cravings and, yes, in a social environment there is often pressure to "eat some real food" or just have one beer--lol.

    IA
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  20. #50
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    Personaly I do ketogenic diets too, although I have to say that I don't like them at all. My brains is fuzzy and being depleted gets on my nerves. I do them because they work well, that's all.
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    Personaly I do ketogenic diets too, although I have to say that I don't like them at all. My brains is fuzzy and being depleted gets on my nerves. I do them because they work well, that's all.
    Do you ever do the "induction" period? I am using the Atkins term because it is most descriptive.

    Low carbing SUCKS if you just "reduce" them without an induction period.

    To make an analogy, doing the induction turns your gas burner (carbs) into a diesel (fat) burner.

    Without an induction period, you are a gas burner without enough gas. Your body is looking for the carbs and doesn't get the message that it has the fat to burn.
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  22. #52
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    Hunger is not a problem, but some people get carb cravings and, yes, in a social environment there is often pressure to "eat some real food" or just have one beer--lol.

    IA
    I don't know about you, but the problem for me is they work TOO well. I know if I get too heavy, I can bang the weight off no problem. So it's always "next week" LOL.
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  23. #53
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1
    Do you ever do the "induction" period? I am using the Atkins term because it is most descriptive.

    Low carbing SUCKS if you just "reduce" them without an induction period.

    To make an analogy, doing the induction turns your gas burner (carbs) into a diesel (fat) burner.

    Without an induction period, you are a gas burner without enough gas. Your body is looking for the carbs and doesn't get the message that it has the fat to burn.

    When I do a keto I start right away. I don't reduce carbs progressively.
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  24. #54
    [[[--------]]] Getsum's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    These diets are not the easiest to do, but is the trainee will persavere, and KEEP THE FAT CONTENT high enough as Defiant stated they do allow muscle to be built while dropping body-fat. And again, NO it is not an optimal situation. But if you need to drop bodyfat anyway, why not optimize the time and build size and strength instead of hoping to maintain or not lose too much.

    Most people make the following mistakes when dieting and FAIL.

    Too many carbs while dieting. Carbs should be LOW to ZERO unless PWO or specific carb up periods.

    People get to agressive and end up catabolic. A person with a basal metabolic rate of 3000 kcals often goes on a 1500 kcal diet and loses muscle and strength and a fast pace and then wonders why.

    People implement HIIT cardio for the first time when dieting. Unless you already have a good CV base you should be doing low intensity cardio when dieting. Or start VERY conservatively and work up to higher levels as time goes by.

    People use the weight room to burn calories. What a horibly misguided approach. You should still be focusing on strength and mass when dieting and if anything volume should come down a notch, not up. Switching to a boatload of high rep isolation lifts when dieting is a great way to lose a ton of strength.

    These are the basics. There are more,but I gotta go eat

    Iron Addict
    Hot damn that's a truthful post. I think I've finally gotten myself into a groove as far as my diet goes and I'd like your opinion on it. Here's what I've been doing recently:

    As a type 2 diabetic, the subject of diet is extremely important to me. Itís an area that Iíll probably by studying and refining for the rest of my life. Iíve tried Atkins, South Beach and a variety of other diets involving low fat, varying amounts carbohydrates and varying amounts of protein over the years. I think Iím finally getting a workable and doable diet, and I was hoping to get some opinions and suggestions.

    Right now Iím trying to keep my diet totals around 2000 - 2500 calories, with a ratio of 45p/30c/25f and this gives me a range of taking in 225 - 282 grams of protein, 150 Ė 188 grams of carbohydrates, and 125 to 156 grams of fat. Those are my cutting levels, maintenance levels would be between 2500 Ė 3000 calories.

    Here are some issues Iím wrestling with right now:

    1. Protein to weight ratio. Many say that you want to be consuming 1 gram of protein to for every pound of weight to prevent muscle loss while cutting. Then you would want to be consuming 1.5 grams or protein for every pound of weight to aid in muscle growth. My questions are should I be using my lean body mass of 166lbs with figuring this out, or should I be using my current body weight of 204lbs?

    If I use my LBM, then my daily protein consumption should be between 166 to 249 grams a day and using my current weight the range would be between 204 to 306. Currently, Iím trying to take in protein from low fat sources like tuna, baked skinless chicken, lean broiled beef, egg whites, whey protein. Iím currently taking in over 225 daily so Iím fine either way, I just want to know the correct answer.


    2. Carbohydrates. Because of my activity level and the amount a cardio Iím doing, I need carbohydrates for energy. Low carbohydrate diets with my current activity level would send me into a low blood sugar and Iíd end up in a coma. So I try to be smart about my carbohydrates. I take carbohydrates in before, during and after my cardio workouts. Then during the normal course of my day, I try to only take in complex carbohydrates that are high in fiber. Dietary fiber, being undigestable, can be excluded from my daily totals. Iím currently trying to get my carbohydrates and dietary fiber through natural sources like fruit and vegetables.

    3. Fats. Iím trying to avoid trans and saturated fats and get my fats from the good polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats. I consume these by taking fish oil supplements, using canola oil for cooking and from some foods like nuts and fish.

    4.Supplements. These are the supplements Iím currently taking:
    OneSource Multivitamin
    Optimun Nutrition 100% Whey
    Higher Power Creatine
    Higher Power Chromium Picolinate
    Lipo 6
    Meta Reg (Diabetic Supplement)
    Fish Oil (Omega 3 Fatty Acids)
    Fiber pills
    Green Tea

    So basically Iím asking for opinions and suggestions. Is there any areas I can be improving on?
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  25. #55
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    Originally Posted by Getsum
    Hot damn that's a truthful post. I think I've finally gotten myself into a groove as far as my diet goes and I'd like your opinion on it. Here's what I've been doing recently:

    As a type 2 diabetic, the subject of diet is extremely important to me. Itís an area that Iíll probably by studying and refining for the rest of my life. Iíve tried Atkins, South Beach and a variety of other diets involving low fat, varying amounts carbohydrates and varying amounts of protein over the years. I think Iím finally getting a workable and doable diet, and I was hoping to get some opinions and suggestions.

    2. Carbohydrates. Because of my activity level and the amount a cardio Iím doing, I need carbohydrates for energy. Low carbohydrate diets with my current activity level would send me into a low blood sugar and Iíd end up in a coma. So I try to be smart about my carbohydrates. I take carbohydrates in before, during and after my cardio workouts. Then during the normal course of my day, I try to only take in complex carbohydrates that are high in fiber. Dietary fiber, being undigestable, can be excluded from my daily totals. Iím currently trying to get my carbohydrates and dietary fiber through natural sources like fruit and vegetables.
    2. Low carb diets do not give you low blood sugar. Atkins is all about controlling blood sugar. High GI foods (i.e. sugar, juice, bread, rice etc. . .) cause your blood sugar to spike. This spike is followed by a strong insulin response which is what causes low blood sugar. You want to keep your blood sugar as stable as possible. Please explain how you think low carb diets give you low blood sugar. I`ve never read a single scientific study that showed that.

    Atkins induction is only 2 weeks. If you are type2 diabetic and don`t want to go low carb, you better make damn sure all your carbs are low GI. Particularly colourful veggies. Using vegetables as your carb source is the best of both worlds. You get your carbs, maintain stable blood sugar and get lots of fiber, vitamins and minerals.
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    Bumping this thread. This was extremely informative, and many people here will benefit from it. Should be on a hall of fame or stiky or something. Think about the 14 year old football player whanting to loose fat weight and gain 20 bls of muscle in 6-7 months. Too many trainees quit bodybuilding because they expect too big gains at the least amount of time. These are people who can really benefit from this post. Now...to get the truth slammed in the face like this may be a let-down, but it will be one of the most benefitial posts they'll ever read.

    Either way, im bookmarking this article and post the link to people expecting unrealistic goals. Good work Iron Addict, and good responses to
    Keep it simple. Allways Think positive. It workes really well. You'd be surprised how easy it is when you don't over analyze.
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  27. #57
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    Great post iron addict....you certanliy know your stuff.

    I am in the 21 months range and i can tell you, in order to gain anything while training this long you must have your diet spot on and eat heaps of clean foods. If you don't eat correctly and as you should, your gains and strength will basically stay the same.
    Now cutting, stomach not flat, me not like !

    Always do your best in the gym !
    Saying you can't do something is a no go zone !
    Being too tired and lazy to workout is unacceptable !
    Bench Press That Mother ****er !
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    Registered User Arete's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by the iron addict
    Well then go right ahead. But know that there is a better way. And BTW, 1 to 1 isn't all that bad, most guys do 2-3 to one.

    But to state that gaining muscle without gaining fat is virtually impossible is just showing your inexperiance. My trainees that come to me for fat loss all build muscle and strength while they cut--THAT SIMPLE.

    Iron Addict
    2-3 pounds of muscle and 1 pound of fat, what's the timetable for that?
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