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  1. #31
    Registered User youi09's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI
    I don't think what Nick said was foolish of all, in fact, it is entirely relevant to such discussions: doggcrapp obviously has a lot of great ideas, as so many of us internet readers have discovered, and a lot of hard work and dedication does go into such a couple of years HOWEVER: the involvment of steroids in the mix, absolutely colors the results....

    if someone chooses NOT to use steroids, then he must take such results as this with discretion.

    this is not to take away from Dog's methods or dedication in any way, however, I personally would NEVER take responsiblity for any such results with someone without also mentioning a drug regimen along with the training.


    I have overseen my youngest son to gain 30 pounds in 3 years time without increasing his waist measurement......this was totally natural, HOWEVER: he was very thin and a rank beginner. for me to make him gain 30 more at this point is another story altogether.

    For a person as dense as Henry was in the first photo, to gain an additional solid 30 pounds of muscle is extremely difficult by training methods and diet alone....just the way it is.......

    for some people, this is an issue and a dig, but for me, it is simply the way it is if you want to compete at that level.
    Great you had your son gain 30 lbs in 3 years that's not bad but like you mentioned, almost all newbie gains.. I have gained over 25 lbs of none newbie gains the last 8 months doing DC training natural.

    You act as if the drugs are the answer even though you don't mention it and try to drift away from it by saying you don't want to take anything away from his methods when you obviously are. Steroids are always the excuse for anyone who makes excellent gains beyond the newbie gains beginners get.

    DC has trainees gain just as much as Henry and even more naturally.
    Last edited by youi09; 03-12-2005 at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #32
    Registered User DOGGCRAPP's Avatar
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    I dont get your point John---I gained 60lbs my first 2 years of lifting (clean as a whistle) or 30lbs more than your son in 2/3 of the time-- I could probably teach your son how to double his gains in half the time if I was so inclined ---newbie gains are pretty easy---taking an elite long lifting person (clean or enhanced) and putting bigtime muscle on him is hard as freaking hell. There are 400 pro bodybuilders with the majority using "help", how many of those guys do you see gaining 30lbs over 2 years? I count maybe two to four---King Kamali got his pro card at 225 and now competes at 255 or so and Ronnie trains so damn heavy it scares forklifts and competes at 300 now. Has Ruhl gotten 30lbs bigger the last 5 years? Nasser? Priest? Im sorry its not as simple as you insinuate. This is about meticulous eating and back breaking weights, with cardio, carb cuttoffs done as neccesary. I see 400 pro bodybuilders with most of them looking the same as they did 3-5 years ago sizewise. The scary part of elite bodybuilding is the weights you have to use to get even larger when you are already freaky large. Dorian and Ronnie both knew this and both went to the limits and turned themselves into the biggest freaks of their era's. Ronnie has gone injury free. Dorian suffered some inuries/consequences that come with taking that risk to be the largest MFer onstage. He has been quoted as saying "he wishes that he didnt lift as heavy while he was severely depleted going for a contest because thats when his injuires happened"--he felt he could of been safer with his training at that time and wouldnt of lost any muscle. Thats what i did with Dave and the other guys I train come prep time--I raise their reps into a rest pause range i feel can keep them injury free. I would venture to guess that 85% of pro bodybuilder injuries happened with said pro was dieting down for a contest or very shortly after he competed. Oh yea watch out for youi09, this guy inquired to me about training him a short time back but when i saw his pics he had gained so much muscle mass i told him "Bro you dont need me, just keep doing what your doing--it sure aint broke so lets not fix it".....I dont say that to many people (thats a bigtime compliment to him because he is doing everything right in my book)
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  3. #33
    Registered User South Side Stev's Avatar
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    there are some ignorant people in this thread.

    Of course he isn't natural, but you cant just stick a needle in your ass and blow up. Dante and Dave both worked hard for those gains. Drugs can't replace training and diet, retards.


    To put it simply:

    Training = motor
    Diet = Fuel
    Sauce = Nitrous
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  4. #34
    Self-Taught Gynecologist TheAustrianOak's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jotun
    Yes, because we all know steroids are a cure-all.
    Seriously, shut the hell up already. Go do your HST and stand on your natural soapbox somewhere else. You're like the ignorant 15 year old kid who thinks creatine will turn his fat into muscle. "OMG, my friend Billy used creatine and gained 20lbs so don't say it doesn't work, if you use creatine you'll gain 20lbs without doing anything and you can eat whatever you want because it'll all get turned to muscle!! But when you stop using creatine you shrink and get fat again!! Everyone using creatine is cheating and should be locked up, including Arnold, Bonds, and Coleman!!"
    Try being constructive for once. All I ever see you do on these boards is tout HST like Haycock is Jesus reborn and liken people to the devil if they even consider using juice.
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  5. #35
    Registered User Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    I'm sure that there are many guys out there who use steroids as an excuse, who think that they're a substitute for perfect eating and training.

    But I'm also sure that there are equally many, if not more, who are just tired of seeing juiced-up bodies that they can't have for themselves.

    Motivation, the deep inner thing that makes being bodybuilders so easy for just about everyone else, is very difficult for me. The last thing I need is some smug monster waving his 20"+ arms in my face - it's depressing.

    Face it, because of steroids, the playing field isn't level, and that pisses a lot of people off. If superior dedication and effort was all any bodybuilder could have going for him, then nobody would have an issue with someone being bigger than them, because the bigger man would have had no advantages over them.

    I'd be willing to bet that a lot of natural guys would take steroids if they had access to them; but since they don't, they are resentful of those that do.

    To huge guys who take steroids: I'm impressed by your bodies and I admire what you have on the inside that allowed you to do what it took to get them, but don't expect me to think as highly of you as I would if you were natural.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 03-12-2005 at 05:53 PM.
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  6. #36
    bbjeff86 bbjeff86's Avatar
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    two ?'s

    #1 I am going to school for exercise science, and am going to either be a strenght coach or personal trainer, maybe both. Anyway, were could i read and learn about doggcrapp's training? I have never heard of this guy, or his training. Thanks in advance for any info.

    #2 didn't Henry used to be in the Military?
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  7. #37
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    To answer your question, bbjeff86, Dave did used to be in the military. I believe he still is.

    Dave's one of my favorites because firstly, I think he looks great and second... HE USED TO TRAIN AT MY GYM! (when he was stationed here at least.)

    Sorry. That's just very exciting to me. lol.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by bbjeff86
    two ?'s

    #1 I am going to school for exercise science, and am going to either be a strenght coach or personal trainer, maybe both. Anyway, were could i read and learn about doggcrapp's training? I have never heard of this guy, or his training. Thanks in advance for any info.

    #2 didn't Henry used to be in the Military?
    http://www.ironmag.com/articles/training/
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  9. #39
    Registered User youi09's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blood&Iron
    I'm sure that there are many guys out there who use steroids as an excuse, who think that they're a substitute for perfect eating and training.

    But I'm also sure that there are equally many, if not more, who are just tired of seeing juiced-up bodies that they can't have for themselves.

    Motivation, the deep inner thing that makes being bodybuilders so easy for just about everyone else, is very difficult for me. The last thing I need is some smug monster waving his 20"+ arms in my face - it's depressing.

    Face it, because of steroids, the playing field isn't level, and that pisses a lot of people off. If superior dedication and effort was all any bodybuilder could have going for him, then nobody would have an issue with someone being bigger than them, because the bigger man would have had no advantages over them.

    I'd be willing to bet that a lot of natural guys would take steroids if they had access to them; but since they don't, they are resentful of those that do.

    To huge guys who take steroids: I'm impressed by your bodies and I admire what you have on the inside that allowed you to do what it took to get them, but don't expect me to think as highly of you as I would if you were natural.
    Oh man you got it wrong. He is a pro, how is he not going to juice? Every pro juices, that makes the competition EVEN, there is no one who has more advantage than anyone else, from there on its who trains the hardest , has the best genetics, and manages to become the largest most aesthetic bodybuilder. HOW CAN YOU NOT RESPECT THEM? They work just as hard as any other natural if not harder but use the JUICE to advance themselves in the sport because every other person is using the juice as well. You cannot compete competatively if you don't juice and if you think otherwise you are wrong.

    What playing field isn't even?! When you get advanced enough IT SURE IS, its not an advantage because everyone is doing it.

    If as a natural you really wanted to take steroids you could get access to them eventually. You say first you respect naturals more but then you say you bet they would take the steroids if they had access to them? DO you see the irony in your post? You're basically saying you respect them more because they have no access to juice and you would respect the "big juice" guys more if they didnt juice, how do you think they got to the final level they are at?

    Good one bro...
    Last edited by youi09; 03-12-2005 at 06:09 PM.
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  10. #40
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DOGG
    I gained 60lbs my first 2 years of lifting (clean as a whistle) or 30lbs more than your son in 2/3 of the time-- I could probably teach your son how to double his gains in half the time if I was so inclined ---

    Dogg: someone as intelligent as you shouldn't even be using such an example, as you know the difference in genetics between different people. You know nothing of the training methods or diet that I have my son on, it is impossible for you to make such a claim......

    if you re-read my post, I did NOT say in any way that is was easy for Mr. Henry to do what he did, and unless I am reading my own post very wrong, I believe I gave you a lot of credit within the post.

    so just answer a point blank question: during this 30 pound gain, did or did not your client take steroids? Yes or no.......we don't need specifics , just yes or no.....

    I am not making a moral judgement here, as you have missed my point: all I am saying is that results and advice in regards to bodybuilding diet and training have to be viewed with discretion by the reader when steroids were involved.....not for wrong or right judgement issues, but for clarity issues.

    steroids are a caveat, whether you like that idea or not....they are part and parcel of the equation......for years, in the bodybuilding mags, this was never stressed......

    please remember, I go back a long way......I still have the original Muscle builder issues from the golden age.......

    That is one of the reasons that I respect MD magazine: they are straightforward about steroid use. Whether I agree with their use or not is irrelevant, I appreciate their honesty......Joe Weiders publication of yesteryear, was terribly dishonest, as they had young men scrambling to do 40 to 60 set workouts, emulating their stars.....when the stars were on steroids, not working a regular job and eating like horses all day long.

    I have read all about your methods, and they are excellently thought out, but as you and I so painfully know, it is HOW someone does any method that is what will make it work.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by DOGGCRAPP
    2 years of lifting (clean as a whistle)
    here..
    "OBSESSED" is the word lazy people use to describe the "DEDICATED."
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  12. #42
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    AiK: Dogg is referring to HIMSELF in that quote, NOT his client.......
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  13. #43
    Registered User DOGGCRAPP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI
    Dogg: someone as intelligent as you shouldn't even be using such an example, as you know the difference in genetics between different people. You know nothing of the training methods or diet that I have my son on, it is impossible for you to make such a claim.......
    True but it looked like you were insinuating genetics and since i was 6 foot tall and 137lbs at 20 without an abdominal showing when i started--I wouldnt say that was elite genetics

    If I stated Dave's business I think you and a majority of this forum would yell bull**** and be in disbelief, denial and shock, Im so freaking tempted because it would embarrass the hell out of a huge amount of people on this board that dont even look like they lift, but the bottom line is Dave's business is Dave's business. My answer for you is go down to AZ and lift eat and learn life as Dave Henry, because Dave got to where he is by using extremely heavy poundages and eating like a robot (bottom line)
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  14. #44
    Bearmode Gr8Ape's Avatar
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    I think the musculature you start with has NO link with your ability to put on muscle.
    ~460/~320/510 pr's

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  15. #45
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    exactly GRape!!!!!

    Dogg: we are not talking what you look like when you start, but your POTENTIAL!

    as you know very well: many will not even reach this potential due to faulty training methods, diet, etc.....

    look at what Larry Scott looked like when he started training!

    I respect your decision to be vague about my question regarding your client, and truthfully, I should not have challenged you in such a way on this public forum due to the legal implications.

    Keep in mind, that despite my personal loathing of steroids, I am nonetheless a big fan of professional bodybuilding and I go to many live events. I know all too well the amount of work and dedication that goes into building a championship body regardless of "natural" or not....

    I started out with 12 inch arms and built them to 18 and a half pumped at my peak, natural, at 5 feet 7 inches height and 180 pounds...I was proud of that achievement.....my best "pupil",was a cousin of my wife, who started out very similar to you: 6 feet 1 inch tall and weighing somewhere in the 140s.....in 5 years time, I had him up to 220 pounds and he finally pumped to 20 inches in his arm, again, totally natural......also, keep in mind that back then, our choices of supplements were just terrible! ( I am talking in the '70s)....sadly, when he moved away from my "tutelage", he gradually ceased and today he doesn't lift at all!!!!
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  16. #46
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    Originally Posted by Gr8Ape
    I think the musculature you start with has NO link with your ability to put on muscle.
    Well then let me take someone like "50 cent" who is a mesomorph and you take someone like Jim Carrey (ecto/endo) and lets put one million dollars on who makes the best bodybuilder the quickest. Now I dont look at 15 year old kids pics like Jay Cutlers, or Paul Dilletts and think they should be 240 shredded at that age like a whole slew of these other guys, who continually use bodybuilders teenage pics as examples to prove their point. HAS ANYONE SEEN A JACKED TO THE HILT 15 YEAR OLD KID? I sure as hell havent. But you get someone to 20 years old there is alot of natural development that has gone on and thats pretty much the peice of clay to work with. Do you think Vic Richards would of been a stick at 20 years old? Ive been training alot of people for a long period of time.....trust me its alot easier putting massive amounts of muscle mass on someone who is out of a pro football players mold than it is from someone who looks like pee wee herman. Why do you think my job is so damn hard? A large part of the people who need me and hire me to train them are people with awful genetics that after 5-10 years of lifting, nobody on the street ever comes up to them and asks them lifting questions or comments on their size. Im the guy turning them into bodybuilders and its hard as hell! Now you put someone with awesome genetics in front of me then you see some amazing things happen and my job gets alot easier
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  17. #47
    Registered User sixpack_69's Avatar
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    i like him when he was 167 ilbs.....a lot nice to look at but he still looks pretty good at the heavier weight
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by TheAustrianOak
    big ass bump

    The Austrian Ass.. huh oak..
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  19. #49
    Registered User Nick666's Avatar
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    Steroids are for ****ing losers.. noone who takes steroids deserves his gains.

    IS IT ****ING CLEAR???
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  20. #50
    Registered User RACKITUP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    Steroids are for ****ing losers.. noone who takes steroids deserves his gains.

    IS IT ****ING CLEAR???
    Controversy... Id actually have to agree, unless they are by-product of medicinal reasons.

    I am consistant everyday, WANT to be the biggest I can be, REALLY WANT to be 220lbs + natural, and there are people out their who can get results quicker with less than ideal diet and training....envy, terrible thing
    RACKITUP's Training logg, http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=464176



    <--Sea here?

    NEWSFLASH
    **Fat guys eat too many carbs
    Muscley guys eat alot of protein
    Skinny guys argue that you dont need protein**
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  21. #51
    Registered User Nick666's Avatar
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    Good to see there are still some naturals out there!
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  22. #52
    The G O A T izzm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    Steroids are for ****ing losers.. noone who takes steroids deserves his gains.

    IS IT ****ING CLEAR???
    Not only are you a moron, you refuse to follow the rules. All steroid talk goes in the "Steroid" section.
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  23. #53
    Bearmode Gr8Ape's Avatar
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    Well we cant base ourselves on 15 old kids then, and neither would you train them DC
    ~460/~320/510 pr's

    fun pr's
    deadlift 340 x 15
    squats 245 x 45

    6' ~220
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  24. #54
    War against genetics chan_ho_nam's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    Steroids are for ****ing losers.. noone who takes steroids deserves his gains.

    IS IT ****ING CLEAR???
    Who are you to say if someone deserves their gains or not? You think simply injecting yourself with whatever and sitting on your ass will get you anywhere? It still takes training, dedication, nutrition etc. You gain more, true, but is the work any less?
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  25. #55
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    People who take steroids are cheaters! Look at it this way.. if a guy takes steroids, he grows, if he doesn't he doesn't grow.. So what's the conclusion??? Huh???
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  26. #56
    War against genetics chan_ho_nam's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    People who take steroids are cheaters! Look at it this way.. if a guy takes steroids, he grows, if he doesn't he doesn't grow.. So what's the conclusion??? Huh???

    OMG how can you be so ignorant? Lets put it THIS way. A pro natural bber will put on 10 maybe 12 lbs of solid muscle a year, if is diet and training are top notch. If that same bber uses some AAS, he may end up with 20,30, or even 40 in that same amount of time. AAS is just one tool in the sport of bbing, along with GH, IGF1 and Insulin. Its there to make these guys go beyond what their bodies are naturally limited to.
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  27. #57
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    pfff.. you're just trying to find them excuses.. without all the steroids they take you'd have 50lbs less of muscle!

    You know what the problem is? The problem is that you're ADDICTED to that kind of physique. THEY are addicted to steroids, and YOU are addicted to them.

    Steroids are banned by just about every sport association on the face of the planet! Because taking steroids IS CHEATING! ONLY A FANATIC OF SCHWARZENEGGER CANNOT SEE THAT!
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  28. #58
    Eat, Drink and be Merry.. jayvee's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    pfff.. you're just trying to find them excuses.. without all the steroids they take you'd have 50lbs less of muscle!

    You know what the problem is? The problem is that you're ADDICTED to that kind of physique. THEY are addicted to steroids, and YOU are addicted to them.

    Steroids are banned by just about every sport association on the face of the planet! Because taking steroids IS CHEATING! ONLY A FANATIC OF SCHWARZENEGGER CANNOT SEE THAT!
    how is it cheating? if every bodybuilder takes them and has access to them, then the playing field is level and everyone is equal. they may be bigger, but at the end of the day, if they are all taking them (which they quite obviously do), then it comes back to diet, training, dedication etc - they will just be able to be taken to their maximum potential..

    you go on about naturals, but bieng involved in competitions for years now, both 'natural' and non tested, i can tell you many so called natural athletes are nowhere near natural - and i dont say this just from what i think - i know for a fact that some have failed drug tests, and what some have done to get around tests. now that my friend IS cheating - not having a level playing field. but with pro bodybuilding, that is just not the case as again, they are equal..

    with many other sports, drug use is much more prevalent than many believe. id say every person in the olympic 100meter final were on performance enhancers - again, if they all take them, the playing field is level...these athletes would still be genetically predispositioned to sprinting - but, like bodybuilders, they want to see thier maximum potential, and people want to see records broken. the word you may be looking for is ILLEGAL. yes, steroids are illegal, but no matter what sport, if everyone is on them, it comes down to genetic potential - i cant fathom how it can be cheating..
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  29. #59
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    People who take steroids are cheaters! Look at it this way.. if a guy takes steroids, he grows, if he doesn't he doesn't grow.. So what's the conclusion??? Huh???
    And if a runner doesn't run, he doesn't get any faster. And if he wears Nikes over sandals, he runs a lot faster. And if he wears spandex instead of jeans, he runs a lot faster. Does that make him a cheater than?
    "It's no fun if you're not freaky!" -KhanPaulsen
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  30. #60
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    Originally Posted by Nick666
    Steroids are for ****ing losers.. noone who takes steroids deserves his gains.

    IS IT ****ING CLEAR???
    Every college student that i know at my college that uses steroids are all smaller, pound for pound than me. I eat better, train harder, train smarter, and because of this i have better gains, and am stronger on most lifts than everyone that i personally know that uses juice. Therefor i would conclude that steroids are not a cheat, and only help a lot if you are doing everything else right. Why do people always blame steroids? Because they are jelous. I don't use but i'll give the guys credit, who knows when i'm older and know more about the stuff i might do some cycles but not until i hit 240-250 natural.
    -Jeff-
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    -You are only a failure if you stop trying-
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