Over 60 and Using Creatine

[Carl123]

No, he would just rather argue

Do you mean like you are doing with me! (what a joke, LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO).

[newmexico123]

Carl, you are taking your arguments too far by insulting everyone here, almost. Your logic relies only upon limited scientific studies that are usually inconclusive - versus actual positive results from experience. You would rather people wait 20 years for scientific proof that some product has some benefits, as opposed to trying a product. I am not talking about products that could cause harm, but products such as creatine, that if taken responsibly, with plenty of hydration throughout the day, MIGHT in fact be of benefit to some of us. How can you deny real results? Also, results from creatine are far from being psychological.

x2 - when all is said and done, folks try stuff - if it works, they continue to use it - if it doesn't - then they stop using it - very simple - very easy!

[Carl123]

x2 - when all is said and done, folks try stuff - if it works, they continue to use it - if it doesn't - then they stop using it - very simple - very easy!

Now that is one way to handle this matter but not everyone wishes to make decisions on the basis of trial and error. Intelligent consumers wish to purchase products, such as whey and casein proteins, that have been demonstrated to do what they purport to do. In short the primary responsibility to prove the efficacy of supplements such as creatine should be on the shoulders of the manufacturer NOT on the backs of the consumer in the role of guinea pig.

[Captain Ahab]

I thought the idea of an over 35 forum was to A) provide a relevant place for those of us that have lived over 34 years and 12 months to go looking for and discussing age pertinent information and B) get away from insults, flaming and general boorish behavior normally associated with people who have not lived longer than 35 years.
I have come in here late and do not know the history of all the parties involved regarding the ongoing negativity but even without knowing the players and the injuries they have sustained either real or imagined I would like to say that the insults and counter insults have no place here and if I feel that way I am sure that there are many others who are just as turned off by reading this crap and may even feel like leaving BB.com because of it.
In the interest of passing on pertinent information as well as showing maturity could all parties call a truce on this thread and just try to answer n4lb?s question regarding creatine and its use for persons over 60 and if any person does not have an answer or comment directly related to the question at hand then please could they keep their eager fingers away from the keyboard?
Maybe the powers that be could make a special place where people who like to insult others and those that like to respond to those insults could go to play by themselves. Just a thought.

[Carl123]

I thought the idea of an over 35 forum was to A) provide a relevant place for those of us that have lived over 34 years and 12 months to go looking for and discussing age pertinent information and B) get away from insults, flaming and general boorish behavior normally associated with people who have not lived longer than 35 years.
I have come in here late and do not know the history of all the parties involved regarding the ongoing negativity but even without knowing the players and the injuries they have sustained either real or imagined I would like to say that the insults and counter insults have no place here and if I feel that way I am sure that there are many others who are just as turned off by reading this crap and may even feel like leaving BB.com because of it.
In the interest of passing on pertinent information as well as showing maturity could all parties call a truce on this thread and just try to answer n4lb?s question regarding creatine and its use for persons over 60 and if any person does not have an answer or comment directly related to the question at hand then please could they keep their eager fingers away from the keyboard?
Maybe the powers that be could make a special place where people who like to insult others and those that like to respond to those insults could go to play by themselves. Just a thought.

Captain, your points are well taken. Unfortunately in this forum there are some posters who upon hearing that another poster is taking a position that is different from theirs reflexively take it personally, perceive it as an attack on their esteem resulting in their going on the offensive. For instance in this thread I presented studies that support research findings that purport that creatine has not been proven to be generally effective for men over 60. Whether these studies are accurate or not, I actually welcome an open and respectful discussion of this topic and disparate opinions. Instead an outpouring of anger comes forth based on one poster's alleged positive experiences with this supplement and another's belief that he has the absolute answer that the studies are irrevocably "flawed" admixed with demeaning and condescending remarks and intimations in an obvious attempt to undermine my credibility. Then out of the woodworks comes the trolls, individuals who do not very often contribute to this forum other than to foment and roil situations such as this.

In fact, this is an ongoing problem in a number of other threads with the unfortunate outcome that there can be no relevant and objective discussion and/or disagreement about a number of topics because some posters are so emotionally tied in with their opinions and anecdotal experiences which they generalize as fact resulting in their immediately going into attack mode whenever anyone requests substantiation of their claims. So I agree with your perspective and acknowledge my role in some of these vapid interactions. Unfortunately, my acknowlegement will not solve the problem. Thanks for your input. Carl

[chrisbute]

Carl - It was you that came on the attack. Two people (60 years old +) refuted your quoted medical reference from personal experience. I also agree with others - that study seems to be lacking in many areas.

From common sense, I would think Creatine is needed by those 60 years old and older to a greater extent.

In closing - please be more respectful to others. You have an attitude like you are right at everything and anyone that disagrees with you is a loser.

[Carl123]

chrisbute:Carl - It was you that came on the attack. Two people (60 years old +) refuted your quoted medical reference from personal experience. I also agree with others - that study seems to be lacking in many areas.

Carl: Thank you for proving my points made to Captain Ahab. Primarily, "Personal experience" does not constitute fact my friend but only one's opinion and anecdotal subjective experience, nothing more, nothing less UNLESS it is supported by objective hard data! In addition the two persons you are referring to did not REFUTE my "quoted medical references". In one case the poster reported their anecdotal positive experience with this supplement which does not refute the studies I presented based on objective evidence or fact. In the other the poster presented his perception that the studies presented were "CRAP" in their entirety based his conception and opinion as to how the studies should have been conducted but without one shred of OBJECTIVE evidence to support his opinion that creatine is an effective muscle and mass developer in men over 60! In fact, as I acknowledged a number of times in this thread, the studies presented have their limitations and are not the last word but at this time there is absolutely no other objective clinical data that does better in regard to men over 60! Of course if you have such data I will REFUTE the studies I presented in their entirety!

chrisbute: From common sense, I would think Creatine is needed by those 60 years old and older to a greater extent.

Carl: What you, Tom, Dick and Harry think based on "Common sense" is not how conclusions are drawn regarding the effectiveness of a supplement. Whether or not a nutritional supplement is effective is not based on "common sense", speculation or beliefs BUT on the scientific method resulting in objective research that either proves or disproves the efficacy of a supplement. Yes, common sense has a definite place in life BUT not in this regard.

chrisbute:In closing - please be more respectful to others. You have an attitude like you are right at everything and anyone that disagrees with you is a loser.

Carl: You mean like your aggressive comments above regarding my manner and your strong opinions about "common sense" implying "that you are right at everything"? Is that what you mean ?

[Roxie]

This has gone on long enough.

Carl, I can detect flame baits throughout all of your posts here, which is against the rules. Forge had warned you to stop, and you continued to give an all out elaborate explanation of why you are always right and everyone is always wrong when they do not agree with you with a hint of sarcasm which is considered a flame bait. This post here is a warning, and it isn't debatable, if you continue on with your ramblings in other posts, you will be on vacation. LAST WARNING!