Over 60 and Using Creatine

**jgreystoke** · 08-24-2007, 06:04 AM

Hi Carl.

I'm not telling you to take creatine.

The studies quoted are too flawed for the reasons given(which you don't seem to understand) to tell us if creatine is beneficial or not to over 60s.

No matter what the medical or pharmological qualifications of those involved, the strength and mass gaining protocols were ridiculous, and destined to fail, even for much younger subjects.

**emf** · 08-24-2007, 06:46 AM

when i was about 30 yrs. old my dr. asked me what supps. i was taking and told me to stop taking creatine as it would increase my chances of having a heart attack.

**Blacksmith** · 08-24-2007, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by emf

when i was about 30 yrs. old my dr. asked me what supps. i was taking and told me to stop taking creatine as it would increase my chances of having a heart attack.

Don't take advice from your foot doctor.

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 08:10 AM

jgreystoke: Hi Carl.I'm not telling you to take creatine.

Carl: Of course not. You are to busy attempting to undermine another poster with who you disagree, with your patronizing and hostile comments. STICK TO THE ISSUES!

jgreystoke: The studies quoted are too flawed for the reasons given(which you don't seem to understand) to tell us if creatine is beneficial or not to over 60s.

Carl: Once again STICK TO THE ISSUES and cease your condescending and undermining editoralizing such as telling another poster that they don't understand because the obvious problem is that you are the only who is having a problem understanding!

In fact I have acknowledged in several posts on this thread that there are limitations in the studies presented and they are not the last word. Hopefully future research will do a better job of clarifying the bottomline. However, so far they have'nt and according to the research scientists from the Natural Medicine Comprehensive Database ((sorry jgreystoke, I have just a little, little, little more faith in the research capabilities and conclusions drawn by these scientists than I do with the "scholarly" achievements you have displayed on this forum) who reviewed the available research literature relating to the effectiveness of creatine for individuals of ALL ages "Due to the variety of study methodologies and some conflicting findings, it has yet to be determined exactly who can benefit from creatine supplements and what dosing schedule is most effective. All studies have been limited by small size; all have involved fewer than 40 subjects and most fewer than 25." SO the limitations (as you call it, "flaws") exist in ALL (do you see this my myopic friend) currently available studies pertaining to creatine, NOT solely those involving older adults!

jgreystoke: No matter what the medical or pharmological qualifications of those involved, the strength and mass gaining protocols were ridiculous, and destined to fail, even for much younger subjects.

Carl: Besides your hyper-critical and grandiose posturing and attacking other posters personally rather than sticking to the issues you have led this thread astray by failing to provide ANY data, evidence or study, other than attacking peer reviewed studies, that answers the initial question raised by a poster regarding the effectiveness of creatine for BBs over 60! In fact because you claim to have the answers to this problem, why don't you design a study protocol and methodology and conduct a viable study rather than sitting on the sidelines critiquing other researcher's work. Then we will be able to review and critique your study to discern if there are any "flaws", which I am certain it will.

In the meantime, while waiting for jgreystoke's study of studies, based on currently available data and in spite of the limitations noted, creatine has not yet been demonstrated to be effective for purposes of developing greater strength or body composition for older adults. END OF STORY!

**lukamar** · 08-24-2007, 08:53 AM

Jeez Carl. I can't believe you are still arguing about the same thing 4 days after the OP. You are not going to change your views and it looks like the other side is not going to change theirs. Sometimes you just have to realize that not everyone is going to agree with you and leave it at that and walk away rather than having to have the last word.

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by lukamar

Jeez Carl. I can't believe you are still arguing about the same thing 4 days after the OP. You are not going to change your views and it looks like the other side is not going to change theirs. Sometimes you just have to realize that not everyone is going to agree with you and leave it at that and walk away rather than having to have the last word.

Hey Lukamar. There is one thing grossly wrong with your assessment of this situation. It is one-sided and obviously biased! In fact, I had no intention to go any further with this matter UNTIL jgreystoke continued to debate the matter resulting in my response. So, if you really wish to be objective, fair or honest place the onus on where it belongs, jgreystoke, or on both participants rather than on selectively focusing on one of the posters with whom you disagree!

**jgreystoke** · 08-24-2007, 09:40 AM

Sorry, Carl.

No name calling, and nothing personal at this end.

If you don't understand why the massive flaws of the studies preclude them from answering the question about creatine, I can't help you.

Have you ever lifted weights yourself, for either mass or strength gains? Do you really think the training protocols in the studies could be effective?

Don't bother replying unless you have something positive to contribute.

**newmexico123** · 08-24-2007, 09:43 AM

Here are some other great web sites dealing with creatine:

http://www.absolute-creatine.com/1.htm
http://www.creatinefacts.com

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 10:25 AM

[QUOTE=jgreystoke;72219603]Sorry, Carl.

No name calling, and nothing personal at this end. If you don't understand why the massive flaws of the studies preclude them from answering the question about creatine, I can't help you.

Carl: Lukamar, demonstrate your integrity, objectivity and fairness and relate to jgreystoke what you advised me. We're waiting!

jreystoke, I understand very well the limitations of the current studies but it is apparent that you did not "hear" me when I acknowledged (do you know what the word means?) these limitations in a minimum of four posts! In fact what you are stating is not revelatory. Regardless of the questions and issues with these studies ("flaws") there is absolutely no other credible, reliable or valid studies available that demonstrate ANY degree of effectiveness of this supplement for individuals over 60 and in fact do not adequately clarify the level of their effectiveness and dosaging with other age groups either, as I noted in my previous post! So at this juncture, we are left with the available research data, with all their limitations and "flaws", UNTIL additional research is conducted that incorporates more comprehensive protocols that will hopefully lead to a more comprehesive understanding of the actual effectiveness of this supplement.

jgreysoke: Have you ever lifted weights yourself, for either mass or strength gains? Do you really think the training protocols in the studies could be effective?

Carl: For the seventh and last time, you are being condescending and coming across as if you are a strength athlete or supreme BB. Without desiring to wound your ego or being too graphic, an examination of your accompanying photos and details of the weights you lift, it is clear that you are not in a position of authority to speak about lifting weights for strength or mass or to pose such questions to another poster as if you are accomplished in these areas! However since you asked, going on 61 I am able to handle just a little, little, little more weight than you indicate as well as being in just a little, little, little better shape and just a little, little, little better conditioned (such as running four miles at paces up to 7.3 miles an hour on a treadmill prior to lifting a pair of 100 pound dumbells for full range of motion sets and reps in the benchpress along with a number of other exercises)! My best benchpress was approximately 390 pounds (approximate age 21), squat (full, not halfs my friend) with approximately 430, incline presses with a pair of 100 pound dumbells, standing presses with a pair of eighty pound dumbells, and strict curls with a 160 pound barbell with my back against a wall for approximately six repetitions. Any other questions to determine my competence to speak with you regarding developing strength and mass?

Oh, I forgot to answer your question completely. I also obtained a 1-2 dan black belt in akikjujitsu at age 55 that necessitated my sparring with partners who were often half my age ( I know, you are a grand master in an esoteric form of Kung Fu)

jgreystoke: Don't bother replying unless you have something positive to contribute.

Carl: Still condescending are'nt you. It is either your way or the highway and this my friend is unacceptable when debating another poster in a cyberspace forum such as this. So far, you have demonstrated an inability to listen, grandiosity as evidenced by your posing as an authority in the bodybuilding arena when you are obviously not, as well as representing yourself as mathematical whiz. Unfortunately so far you have only demonstrated an ability to demean those who do not see eye to eye with your positions.

So if you cannot provide anything of subtance that proves the value of creatine for the purposes of this discussion I would suggest that you critique your self in a mirror tonight with the same degree of "objectivity" as you did with the studies I presented, along with your strength attainments, and work on improving your shape, condition and strength prior to playing an authority on this board demanding of others that they put up or shut up! To do otherwise is resulting in serious questions regarding the credibility of your assertions.

**jgreystoke** · 08-24-2007, 12:03 PM

Still no name calling or personal attacks from this end, Carl.

Amazed no pics or lifts in your profile. Post them so we can compare if that stuff is so important to you. It doesn't bother me at all. Even more amazed you could think the protocols could possible promote strength or mass gains, creatine supplementation or not......you being a lifter for decades an' all. Even a novice lifter like me can see that.

Actually do a lot of math in an armchair, lol. But my degree is math, and all my professional qualifications are math related. Since I get paid to tutor up to degree level, I guess I really am a professional, tho' I consider myself an amateur.....half in jest. Not relevant to the links you posted, but relevant to the other link from Chuck I was referring to.

You seem very angry that the links you gave are worthless for the purpose of helping the op. That's not my fault.

Carl, you are the one presenting as an authority. No one is attacking you personally, not even in response to tenor of your posts.

**Captain Ahab** · 08-24-2007, 04:21 PM

I am almost 60 (58 and ?) and have been using Beverly International?s supplements including creatine for a while now with excellent results. I find that I am able to recover a little quicker than before I started taking it and although it may have only increased my strength by a small amount the recovery part is well worth it to me.
Beverly International has a great website where they feature a lot of over 50 and over 60 NATURAL bodybuilders of both sexes and you can check out their website at www.bodybuildingworld.com and see for yourself.

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=jgreystoke;72258523]Still no name calling or personal attacks from this end, Carl.

Carl: How long have you been experiencing this delusion

?

jgreystoke: Amazed no pics or lifts in your profile. Post them so we can compare if that stuff is so important to you. It doesn't bother me at all.

Carl: Why so amazed? There are significant numbers of posters on this forum who do not care to provide their photos. And by the way I have absolutely no desire or motivation to "compare" anything with you because quite frankly there is no basis for a comparison! If you do not wish to accept this that is fine. However after reviewing your photos and stats what is there really to say. Its analagous to being challenged by some neophyte gunslinger who somehow believes he is something which he is not and there is no point engaging his challenge.

jgreystoke: Even more amazed you could think the protocols could possible promote strength or mass gains, creatine supplementation or not......you being a lifter for decades an' all.

Carl: Were you ever told you sound like a broken record! You're beating a dead horse. You have made your point over and over and are now talking to yourself. Get a grip, take some l-tryptophan and get a good nights sleep.

jgreystoke: Even a novice lifter like me can see that.

Carl: Based on your photos and lifting stats we at least agree on your BB status as a novice.

jgreystoke: You seem very angry that the links you gave are worthless for the purpose of helping the op. That's not my fault.

Carl: In addition to being a "novice", you also lack insight! your posts are inundated with anger and demeaning intimations when others do not agree with your position. As noted above, take a deep breath, take some l-tryptophan or niacin, and get a good night sleep my novice friend.

jgreystoke: Carl, you are the one presenting as an authority. No one is attacking you personally, not even in response to tenor of your posts.

Carl: In addition to being a BB novice and having no insight into how you are coming across in your posts you are also very defensive. Furthermore, you are very annoying because of your repeated attempts to prove that your points regarding the research studies are so significant when in the large picture of what is really important in life it is a trite contribution.

**joed** · 08-24-2007, 08:16 PM

I've said this before: the best way to get rid of someone who craves attention is to ignore him. And, young man, if you come back at me with a snide comment and your surly attitude I'll neg rep you so hard you'll be looking up at your feet. Fair warning.

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 08:42 PM

[QUOTE=joed;72375553]I've said this before: the best way to get rid of someone who craves attention is to ignore him.

And, young man, if you come back at me with a snide comment and your surly attitude I'll neg rep you so hard you'll be looking up at your feet. Fair warning.

Carl: Moderators, this poster is out of control. He is making hostile, provocative and flaming remarks as well as overt threats. I would appreciate your intervention to deal with this matter as soon as possible. Thanks, Carl

**lukamar** · 08-24-2007, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Carl123

I would appreciate your intervention to deal with this matter as soon as possible.

I'd be careful what you ask for. Joed is a long time well known and well respected member of the over 35 forum. He also hasn't been arguing on this thread for 4 days like some other people.

**joed** · 08-24-2007, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Carl123

...this poster is out of control. He is making hostile, provocative and flaming remarks...

In psychiatry, this is called projection. Negged.

**Carl123** · 08-24-2007, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by lukamar

I'd be careful what you ask for. Joed is a long time well known and well respected member of the over 35 forum. He also hasn't been arguing on this thread for 4 days like some other people.

Of course you have had no role in this 4 day "argument"! LMAO

Regardless, when any poster makes threatening remarks to another poster it goes beyond merely having a heated exchange. It is grossly inappropriate and unacceptable regardless of the fact that we are in cyberspace and anonymous and needs to be dealt with appropriately.

**Blacksmith** · 08-25-2007, 07:28 AM

I can't believe this thread keeps making the front page.

Crap...guess I just bumped it to the top.

**Carl123** · 08-25-2007, 07:57 AM

Blacksmith: Crap...guess I just bumped it to the top.

Carl: Based on your unbelievable perspicacious contribution to this thread as noted above, I would say that you are 100% correct

.

**Forge3** · 08-25-2007, 09:14 AM

The debate about the efficacy of creatine continues.

The flaming and getting personal needs to end.

**Hibiscus09** · 08-25-2007, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dutchman

Don't pay any attention to the bunko reviews which say you can't do this or that. It' all recirculated bullbleep. My basic stack is creatine EE/L-Arginine/Beta-Alanine taken @ approx. 5gms/5gms/2.4gms about one hour after my pre-workout meal and a half hour to 45 mins before I workout. Yeah I know that the Beta-Alanine gives you the tingles within 20 mins of taking it but dang, it soon goes away and then works phenomenally well with the Creatine and Arginine to give me great recovery, strength increases and some size (about 3 lbs). Don't forget also that Creatine has finally been recognized as the best natural supplement to delay and/or stave off Parkinson's disease, a bane of us old farts. In fact, it is now in widespread testing under the National Institute of Health. So fear not, find the type of Creatine that works for you eg Monohydrate with its pre-loading, Ethyl Ester (my fav) etc and get cranking. Age is only a deterrent if you want it/let be so.

I like the term bullbleep.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Make sure your creatine is powder variety.
Take it with a 50:50 mixture of grapejuice/grapefruit juice.
Check the label to be sure your creatine has the creapure label.

Mine has dextrose. Is that fine? I don't know about the creapure label.....I need to check. I use ISS Effervescent creatine.

Originally Posted by StartinOver-68

It is simply what works for some will not work for others regardless of what some studies say.

I think this is true.

Originally Posted by lukamar

Jeez Carl. I can't believe you are still arguing about the same thing 4 days after the OP. You are not going to change your views and it looks like the other side is not going to change theirs. Sometimes you just have to realize that not everyone is going to agree with you and leave it at that and walk away rather than having to have the last word.

You're a wise man, lukamar.

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab

I am almost 60 (58 and ?) and have been using Beverly International?s supplements including creatine for a while now with excellent results. I find that I am able to recover a little quicker than before I started taking it and although it may have only increased my strength by a small amount the recovery part is well worth it to me.
Beverly International has a great website where they feature a lot of over 50 and over 60 NATURAL bodybuilders of both sexes and you can check out their website at www.bodybuildingworld.com and see for yourself.

I love Beverly's supps also. I regularly take their MASS, Glutamine with BCAAs (also) and their Joint Care.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

I can't believe this thread keeps making the front page.

Crap...guess I just bumped it to the top.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Forge3

The debate about the efficacy of creatine continues.

The flaming and getting personal needs to end.

Hi Forge!

I am a responder to creatine and like to take it -- especially when I'm cutting. It does appear to keep my strength up. I don't notice the bloating too much, but did cut it out about a month before my contests just in case. I've never thought about there being an age limit on it's effectiveness, so I guess I'll that to those over 60 as experience speaks best. I do know it's very important for me to have lots of water with it or I get cramps. I shoot for a gallon a day.

**Carl123** · 08-25-2007, 10:26 AM

Hibiscus09:You're a wise man, lukamar.

Carl: Based on the accompanying photo in your post it is obvious that he is not as "wise" as you

. LMAO.

Hibiscus: Hi Forge!

I am a responder to creatine and like to take it -- especially when I'm cutting. It does appear to keep my strength up. I don't notice the bloating too much, but did cut it out about a month before my contests just in case. I've never thought about there being an age limit on it's effectiveness, so I guess I'll that to those over 60 as experience speaks best. I do know it's very important for me to have lots of water with it or I get cramps. I shoot for a gallon a day.

Carl: I hate to disturb your rantings but Forge was not interested in continuing/pursuing this discussion BUT in concluding it peacefully! It is obvious from some of your provocative comments above that you have not processed Forge's message asking us to bring closure to this topic and not fuel the flames.

**Hibiscus09** · 08-25-2007, 10:42 AM

I haven't flamed or been personal and certainly was not ranting or being provocative (although at times it is fun to be provocative

). I believe Forge requested us not to get personal or flame one another and I have done neither. I won't respond to you again in this thread.

**dbx** · 08-25-2007, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Carl123

Carl: I hate to disturb your rantings but Forge was not interested in continuing/pursuing this discussion BUT in concluding it peacefully! It is obvious from some of your provocative comments above that you have not processed Forge's message asking us to bring closure to this topic and not fuel the flames.

Yeah, that's ^ not provocative. I'll take my chances with the MODS

. Carl, you're a dick. Period.

**Mark1T** · 08-25-2007, 11:35 AM

Carl, you are taking your arguments too far by insulting everyone here, almost. Your logic relies only upon limited scientific studies that are usually inconclusive - versus actual positive results from experience. You would rather people wait 20 years for scientific proof that some product has some benefits, as opposed to trying a product. I am not talking about products that could cause harm, but products such as creatine, that if taken responsibly, with plenty of hydration throughout the day, MIGHT in fact be of benefit to some of us. How can you deny real results? Also, results from creatine are far from being psychological.

**Carl123** · 08-25-2007, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by dbx

Yeah, that's ^ not provocative. I'll take my chances with the MODS

. Carl, you're a dick. Period.

Well as it is said, it takes one to know one (

).

**dbx** · 08-25-2007, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mark1T

..You would rather people wait 20 years for scientific proof that some product has some benefits,....

No, he would just rather argue

**dbx** · 08-25-2007, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Carl123

Well as it is said, it takes one to know one (

).

I'll agree with you. Now, will you promise not to post in this thread if I promise not to post in this thread?

I'm out

**Carl123** · 08-25-2007, 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=Mark1T;72497063]Carl, you are taking your arguments too far by insulting everyone here, almost.

Carl: A review of the postings on this thread will prove otherwise, a fact that somehow escapes you! If you wish we will review each posting and it will be very clear that my strong responses emanated from certain provocative folks who came on like a ton of bricks due to their not liking my perspective. Is this the way folks over 35 deal with disagreement?

Mark 1T: Your logic relies only upon limited scientific studies that are usually inconclusive - versus actual positive results from experience.

Carl: My friend, our "actual positive results from experience" are good to hear BUT do not constitute fact because they are not actual! They are anecdotal and many times do not apply to many other posters. In addition, how are we to know that the positive results some posters report from a supplement such as creatine actually comes about due to this supplement but not from the soy protein they are taking or CLA, vitamin E, a new exercise regimen, more intense exercise, and so forth and so on. So unless you have some scientific data to substantiate your "actual positive results from experience" and have clearly separated the actual variables that may have contributed to the positive outcomes with creatine, it remains in the realm of possiblities, not fact. And this is an ongoing issue on this forum whereby because someone experiences a positive effect from a supplement (if in fact it emanated from that supplement not some other unidentified factor) they extol the virtues of the supplement to other posters as if it is a generalized established fact, which it obviously is'nt.

Mark1T: You would rather people wait 20 years for scientific proof that some product has some benefits, as opposed to trying a product. I am not talking about products that could cause harm, but products such as creatine, that if taken responsibly, with plenty of hydration throughout the day, MIGHT in fact be of benefit to some of us. How can you deny real results?

Carl: I understand and respect your position but have the perspective that any supplement I take should be demonstrated to do what it is claimed to do. In the case of such a product as creatine this has not been the case with significant numbers of individuals. Although it works very well for some and well for others there are others for whom it does'nt work! In addition there is still a major gap in the research literature pertaining to its actual effects and dosages required due to a number of limitations in the extant studies (ie, insufficient subjects, variety of study methodologies, conflicting findings of the studies, etc).

In addition, this supplement is not entirely free of potential adverse effects, although perhaps not a major problem for many, unless one of us is unlucky enough to experience it. There are quite a few cases of gastrointestinal pain and discomfort, naseau and diarrhea (25% of collegiate athletes experience muscle cramping), as well as reported cases of cardiac afibrilation and kidney disease.

If I come across as being too cautious, in fact I am! There are too many supplements being marketed to the public that have not been adequately tested with human subjects in well designed clinical studies that substantiate their effectiveness and long term safety. All these manufacturers have to do is claim that their product results in hugh gains in muscle mass and strength, package it in green or red bottles and many BBs will impulsively jump the gun and purchase the latest unproven supplement. A definite monetary windfall for the manufacturer based on the naivete of many consumers.

Mark1T: Also, results from creatine are far from being psychological.

Carl: Apart from any placebo effects, the fact is that creatine may have very strong benefits for some bodybuilders and good outcomes for others but definitely not for all! Anyone who makes such a claim is not being honest. In spite of its purported and extolled anecdotal benefits, there is a lack of clear cut research that supports its efficacy in doing what it is claimed to do for many BBs!

**Carl123** · 08-25-2007, 12:38 PM

[QUOTE=dbx;72500453]I'll agree with you. Now, will you promise not to post in this thread if I promise not to post in this thread?

NO! I like you too much to cease doing so now

(LLLLLLLLLLMAO).

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