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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    source? or just opinion mixed with bs?

    Good debate skills.

    x2

    Hell yeah!

    lol, arnold never drank milk

    great post.
    I never said arnold drank milk.. i said he reccomended a 20g of whey+caesin mix.. maybe u need some glasses?
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  3. #33
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    Milk PWO FTW
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  4. #34
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    Clearing Up Casein's Misunderstood Role in Workout Nutrition

    By Alan Aragon


    Dairy Protein Primer

    God bless the dairy industry. Who would have known that pitchfork-toting guys in straw hats and overalls would play a tremendous role in bodybuilding nutrition? In the dawn of the sport, cow's milk has been regarded as a staple bodybuilding food. The reasons milk works so well for size and strength gains have only recently been investigated. By now it's pretty common knowledge that milk protein consists of a combination of whey and casein. Casein is the dominant fraction of milk protein (82 percent) with whey rounding out the remainder (18 percent). Minor but commercially significant milk proteins are lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase. It's well known that casein and whey are among the most biologically available proteins in the food supply.

    Primary Differences Between Whey and Casein

    Whey and casein have distinctly different composition and physiological effect. Whey is higher than casein in leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and the sulfur-containing amino acids. In contrast, casein has more phenylalanine, tyrosine, and aromatic amino acids. Casein has a more intimate link with IGF-1 binding capacity, while whey has been noted for its ability to suppress oxidation. Casein is the slowly absorbed fraction, and whey is the quick one. As a result, whey has a greater effect on protein synthesis, while casein has a greater effect on nitrogen retention and the prevention of protein breakdown. Casein holds the less glorious position of keeping the floor from crashing into the basement, while whey has been in the spotlight raising the roof.

    The Obsession with Speed

    Traditional thinking about postworkout nutrition has been all about speed. It all began with the rate of appearance of plasma glucose directly affecting the rate of glycogen synthesis. Higher glycemic response equals quicker glycogenesis (glycogen synthesis), and presumably, quicker recovery. That objective is just perfect if you're an ultra-endurance athlete with multiple sessions in a single day. Ironically, all of the nutrient timing principles bodybuilders have adopted are derived from research geared toward endurance sports, where the athlete's structure and function is nearly the opposite of the bodybuilder.

    So, are there crossover lessons to be applied? Yes and no. From a cellular hydration standpoint, it certainly can't hurt bodybuilders to follow suit and maximize the rate of glycogenesis. But in most cases, the glycogen you used up during training is easily restocked by the same time the next day, regardless of whether you consume "fast" or "slow" proteins and carbs after working out. In addition, all the research indicating the anabolic benefit of quick postworkout substrates was done on subjects in an overnight fasted state, in the absence of a preworkout meal or shake - not exactly the real-world workout conditions of typical bodybuilders.

    Whey Became the Dextrose of the Protein World

    Dextrose was recognized for quite some time as the quickest carb, and thus best for postworkout recovery. Naturally, a whey plus dextrose combination became the standard for postworkout nutrition due to the quickly absorbed nature of each substrate. But again, the postworkout nutrition objectives were all based upon unrealistic conditions in a nearly irrelevant population (fasted endurance trainees). People around the world spouted off familiar advice: "You shouldn't have casein postworkout because it will hinder the absorption of the whey and dextrose." And hence the whey-only era continued. Some folks have latched onto the speed of absorption idea and swear (without evidence) that whey hydrolysate is better than whey isolate or whey concentrate. Still others will take the concept even further and trade out their steak for a bowl of free-form aminos, which are more quickly absorbed. Naturally, milk was supposed to be avoided postworkout, because it formed viscous clumps of gel in your gut that scared off the whey, rendering it useless. Well, at least that's how a lot of people made it sound. Meanwhile, research began to trickle in and change the way we viewed the situation.

    [continued on next post]
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  5. #35
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    Is Faster Better?

    About a decade ago, Boirie's team compared the absorption rate and leucine kinetics of 30 grams casein to 30 grams whey, and their results were very interesting. Casein elevated blood amino acid levels for up to 300 minutes post-ingestion [1]. Whey, on the other hand, caused higher amino acid levels at the 100 minute point, and returned levels to baseline at 300 minutes. Casein caused a smaller increase in protein synthesis, but unlike whey, casein also inhibited protein breakdown.

    The striking aspect about this study was the casein group achieved a better leucine balance than the whey group, indicating better nitrogen retention, thus better protein utilization. Casein caused a greater net positive protein balance than whey. This was a big win for casein, because all we really care about is remaining in a trend of positive protein balance amidst continual protein turnover.

    In a later similar study, it was found that aside from known factors (including quantity of calories, amino acid composition, and micronutrition), the speed of digestion is an independent regulator of protein balance [2]. In other words, slower actually was observed to be better. Now let's see what happens when the rubber meets the road in comparison trials measuring the relevant endpoints.

    The True Test: Comparative Effects On Body Composition and Strength

    Seven years ago, Demling and Desanti compared the effect of a casein-dominant meal replacement product with a whey supplement. Overweight healthy police officers underwent a structured exercise program that included resistance training, under slightly hypocaloric conditions [3]. The dosing of each treatment was twice daily, once postworkout, and again 8-10 hours separately. The results? Whey got whooped by the casein-based meal replacement for strength gain, lean body mass gain and fat loss. Can we blame the superiority of the casein blend's results all on the 20 grams of carbohydrate it contained? Overall carbohydrate intake was controlled between the groups, however carbohydrate timing was not controlled, so carb timing could have made a minor impact. About a year after that study, Wojcik and colleagues compared an all-carbohydrate drink with a milk-based carb/protein recovery drink [4]. Each drink was dosed immediately postworkout and again two hours later. The results? No significant difference in rate of glycogen resynthesis.

    More recently, Kerksick's team compared the strength and body composition effects of three treatments on resistance-trained men. One group received 40 grams of whey plus eight grams of casein. Another received 40 grams of whey plus three grams of BCAA plus five grams of glutamine. The last group received 48 grams of carbohydrate [5]. The supplements were ingested postworkout and on the mornings of non-exercise days. The casein/whey group had the greatest increase in lean mass, the carbohydrate group came in second without any gain, and the whey/BCAA/glutamine group actually lost lean mass. Calories were poorly controlled in this trial, But still, fast-absorbing whey and BCAA didn't shine as the be all and end all of protein and amino acid supplements.

    The latest dairy protein fight as of this writing was performed by Cribb's team, who saw high-dose whey beat high-dose casein for strength gain, lean mass gain, and fat loss [6]. But once again, calories weren't controlled as tightly as necessary to level the playing field and allow us to draw any firm conclusions.

    So Where Does This Leave Us?

    The research comparing casein and whey is split almost right down the middle. Where it's headed from this point is really anyone's guess. Undoubtedly, funding source will play a big role in the direction of the research results. As the evidence stands, it certainly wouldn't hurt, and might actually be optimal to have a blend of the two and reap the best of both worlds. A popular practice is to have casein pre-bed, and whey near the training bout. But the reality is, the training bout is the most acutely catabolic point in your day, even though it's a necessary trigger for anabolism. Think about it, sleep ain't got NOTHING on the immediate muscle damage caused by battling the iron. So, why not have both of the best tools for each job present in circulation at the most critical point? Let's look at things logically. By saying that casein might get in the way of whey, we might as well say that the carbohydrate might get in the way of the protein, so let's separate them? Wrong. Protein and carbs act synergistically to increase muscle protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown. The same synergy can be achieved by having a combination of whey and casein near the workout. Maybe Mother Nature was right all along.

    References

    1. Boirie Y, et al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997;94(26):14930-5.
    2. Dangin M, et al. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
    3. Demling RH, DeSanti L. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers. Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(1):21-9.
    4. Wojcik JR, et al. Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11(4):406-19.
    5. Kerksick, et al. The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training. J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.
    6. Cribb, et al. The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006;16:494-509
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post

    [continued on next post]
    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    ...
    Wow! Brilliant lol. I've been doing 14 oz of skim milk and 24grams of whey post workout, along with my carb source.
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  7. #37
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    Hmm...maybe someone should drink 40 oz of skim milk post workout with a carb source and log their gains...if they could old it in their stomach
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  8. #38
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    Thanks alan, I was hoping you'd chime in here .
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  9. #39
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    Bump. There is a thread on a similiar subject.
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  10. #40
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    so its skim milk pwo right? what about skim supreme? its go like carrageenan or something like that in it. what is that?
    Last edited by djansen; 07-21-2007 at 06:44 PM.
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  11. #41
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    i think people are a little overreacting about the whole "ZOMG MILK SLOWS DOWN PROTEIN DIGESTION I"LL LOSE MY GAINZZZ"

    i always mix my protein powder with 2 cups (16 fl oz) of 1% milk.
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  12. #42
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    Hmm........

    So having my shakes with milk pre and post workout, as well as cottage cheese +whey before bed wasn't such a bad idea after all.

    Alan, I like the common sense approach here. I've never gotten bent out of shape about speed of digestion of nutrients. Like you said, have some whey and some casein, get the best of both worlds.

    I drink whey shakes, but I've always thought about back in the day before whey. They just had whole food and milk How did they ever grow

    I'd be curious to see future research on this topic.
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    Originally Posted by jked4life View Post
    Hmm........

    So having my shakes with milk pre and post workout, as well as cottage cheese +whey before bed wasn't such a bad idea after all.

    Alan, I like the common sense approach here. I've never gotten bent out of shape about speed of digestion of nutrients. Like you said, have some whey and some casein, get the best of both worlds.

    I drink whey shakes, but I've always thought about back in the day before whey. They just had whole food and milk How did they ever grow

    I'd be curious to see future research on this topic.
    A lot grew from anabolic steroids

    I think Arnold would go out and just eat meat post workout.

    Personally, I have milk with every meal, that counts pre workout and post workout as well.
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    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    A lot grew from anabolic steroids

    I think Arnold would go out and just eat meat post workout.

    Personally, I have milk with every meal, that counts pre workout and post workout as well.
    Yeah, but far lower dosages than today. The gear Arnold did in a Year wouldn't last these guys now more than a couple weeks.

    I think the importance of the Pre and post workout whey shakes are overrated. Getting the nutrition is important, but I question the necessity of shakes at all. I do it, but if I come home and dinner is ready, I'll just eat and forget the shakes. Never hurt my gains any
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    Originally Posted by jked4life View Post
    Yeah, but far lower dosages than today. The gear Arnold did in a Year wouldn't last these guys now more than a couple weeks.

    I think the importance of the Pre and post workout whey shakes are overrated. Getting the nutrition is important, but I question the necessity of shakes at all. I do it, but if I come home and dinner is ready, I'll just eat and forget the shakes. Never hurt my gains any
    A lot of studies support whey in post workout for gains in lean body mass.

    I don't know about pre workout, though.
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    Is Faster Better?

    About a decade ago, Boirie's team compared the absorption rate and leucine kinetics of 30 grams casein to 30 grams whey, and their results were very interesting. Casein elevated blood amino acid levels for up to 300 minutes post-ingestion [1]. Whey, on the other hand, caused higher amino acid levels at the 100 minute point, and returned levels to baseline at 300 minutes. Casein caused a smaller increase in protein synthesis, but unlike whey, casein also inhibited protein breakdown.

    The striking aspect about this study was the casein group achieved a better leucine balance than the whey group, indicating better nitrogen retention, thus better protein utilization. Casein caused a greater net positive protein balance than whey. This was a big win for casein, because all we really care about is remaining in a trend of positive protein balance amidst continual protein turnover.

    In a later similar study, it was found that aside from known factors (including quantity of calories, amino acid composition, and micronutrition), the speed of digestion is an independent regulator of protein balance [2]. In other words, slower actually was observed to be better. Now let's see what happens when the rubber meets the road in comparison trials measuring the relevant endpoints.

    The True Test: Comparative Effects On Body Composition and Strength

    Seven years ago, Demling and Desanti compared the effect of a casein-dominant meal replacement product with a whey supplement. Overweight healthy police officers underwent a structured exercise program that included resistance training, under slightly hypocaloric conditions [3]. The dosing of each treatment was twice daily, once postworkout, and again 8-10 hours separately. The results? Whey got whooped by the casein-based meal replacement for strength gain, lean body mass gain and fat loss. Can we blame the superiority of the casein blend's results all on the 20 grams of carbohydrate it contained? Overall carbohydrate intake was controlled between the groups, however carbohydrate timing was not controlled, so carb timing could have made a minor impact. About a year after that study, Wojcik and colleagues compared an all-carbohydrate drink with a milk-based carb/protein recovery drink [4]. Each drink was dosed immediately postworkout and again two hours later. The results? No significant difference in rate of glycogen resynthesis.

    More recently, Kerksick's team compared the strength and body composition effects of three treatments on resistance-trained men. One group received 40 grams of whey plus eight grams of casein. Another received 40 grams of whey plus three grams of BCAA plus five grams of glutamine. The last group received 48 grams of carbohydrate [5]. The supplements were ingested postworkout and on the mornings of non-exercise days. The casein/whey group had the greatest increase in lean mass, the carbohydrate group came in second without any gain, and the whey/BCAA/glutamine group actually lost lean mass. Calories were poorly controlled in this trial, But still, fast-absorbing whey and BCAA didn't shine as the be all and end all of protein and amino acid supplements.

    The latest dairy protein fight as of this writing was performed by Cribb's team, who saw high-dose whey beat high-dose casein for strength gain, lean mass gain, and fat loss [6]. But once again, calories weren't controlled as tightly as necessary to level the playing field and allow us to draw any firm conclusions.

    So Where Does This Leave Us?

    The research comparing casein and whey is split almost right down the middle. Where it's headed from this point is really anyone's guess. Undoubtedly, funding source will play a big role in the direction of the research results. As the evidence stands, it certainly wouldn't hurt, and might actually be optimal to have a blend of the two and reap the best of both worlds. A popular practice is to have casein pre-bed, and whey near the training bout. But the reality is, the training bout is the most acutely catabolic point in your day, even though it's a necessary trigger for anabolism. Think about it, sleep ain't got NOTHING on the immediate muscle damage caused by battling the iron. So, why not have both of the best tools for each job present in circulation at the most critical point? Let's look at things logically. By saying that casein might get in the way of whey, we might as well say that the carbohydrate might get in the way of the protein, so let's separate them? Wrong. Protein and carbs act synergistically to increase muscle protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown. The same synergy can be achieved by having a combination of whey and casein near the workout. Maybe Mother Nature was right all along.

    References

    1. Boirie Y, et al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997;94(26):14930-5.
    2. Dangin M, et al. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
    3. Demling RH, DeSanti L. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers. Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(1):21-9.
    4. Wojcik JR, et al. Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11(4):406-19.
    5. Kerksick, et al. The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training. J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.
    6. Cribb, et al. The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006;16:494-509
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    Question

    studies show that casein amino acid profile is in the blood circulating for 300 min(5hr) without coming down(slow).whey amino acids were up like for 100 (1hr 40min) min(fast) then did a nose dive next 200 min to a total of 300min (5hrs).

    it show that also if one is drinking whey shake that the next meal should be in to 1-2hrs to keep the pos nitrogen in balance.does that sound right?

    if you have the casein/whey post workout then when should you eat your next meal 4-5 hrs later?just curious.alan?
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    bada bing! tonutzda2@veriz's Avatar
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    there does seem to be strenght gains in lean mass from many of the studies with the use of casein.that is what i think i understand from what i've read,but then the last study done by cribbs show the opposite where whey performed better than casein.
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    Casein has been shown to coagulate in the stomach, which WILL slow down whey absorption. That being said, casein + whey is an anabolic combination worth looking into. I'd say the number one factor in deciding whether or not to have milk is if it fits in your daily caloric intake/macros. I'd most likely drop the milk on a cut because liquid calories are less than ideal when trying to shed weight. On a bulk, try some skim and see how it goes.
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    Mr.Cooper69, did you bother reading the posts in this thread, especially the two-parter by Alan Aragon, before bumping this thread after more than a year? You've added nothing substantial worth bumping.

    Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69 View Post
    I'd most likely drop the milk on a cut because liquid calories are less than ideal when trying to shed weight. On a bulk, try some skim and see how it goes.
    Dumb.
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    Awesome read.
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    water all day over milk, its free lol
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    Originally Posted by million3g View Post
    water all day over milk, its free lol
    It also depends on your goals.
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    Slow absorbtion? idk..

    It seems to me that even if you use milk it wont matter because even though the milk does have casein protein in it... its not like it is going to form some unbreakable bond with with the whey. your body will absorb the whey and casein at their respective rates. Milk all the way. no reason to use water...
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    Originally Posted by InclineVet View Post
    I always go with water because it carries the whey into my muscles quicker post-workout. I also feel sick and bloated when I drink milk after training
    Try using a better protein
    Whey protein isolate has less lactose than whey protein concentrate or use hydrolyzed protein

    I had to to switch proteins and use lactose free milk
    Last edited by JPeezy1; 01-07-2011 at 05:36 PM.
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