Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[Own3r]

thats bs, alot of people have to go below that to see anything happen, also look into PSMF's which drop well below 12cal/lb but keep protein much higher. Your metabolism will go down on any diet also, as long as you program in refeeds and diet breaks you'll be fine

although i agree that her cal levels are ridiculous and could do with being bumped up

Those people are impatient

[Ms.PersianDoll]

Thanks for the responses all. And yes I understand and agree my cals and macros are a bit low right now but I am working with a trainer, our goal right now is to lean me out as much as possible and see what we are really working with as far as my proportions, where we need to focus and build and so forth. This has only been my diet since Sept. 16th (I was 117lbs at 22% bf) and tomorrow morning we are doing another body fat analysis, which will include changing up my diet a bit (thank God lol). Wish me luck tomorrow! haha I know there is no luck involved but hoping I dropped down a few more points, I really want to be ready to compete by April!

[determined4000]

Thanks for the responses all. And yes I understand and agree my cals and macros are a bit low right now but I am working with a trainer, our goal right now is to lean me out as much as possible and see what we are really working with as far as my proportions, where we need to focus and build and so forth. This has only been my diet since Sept. 16th (I was 117lbs at 22% bf) and tomorrow morning we are doing another body fat analysis, which will include changing up my diet a bit (thank God lol). Wish me luck tomorrow! haha I know there is no luck involved but hoping I dropped down a few more points, I really want to be ready to compete by April!

No offense, but many personal trainers don't know a lot about nutrition. And some that do will put their clients on starvation calorie levels so that they drop weight and it looks as if their workout /diet program is working. Of course you will have lost weight eating that much, but that doesnt mean your health and body composition is benefiting.

[xtreem69]

Thanks for the responses all. And yes I understand and agree my cals and macros are a bit low right now but I am working with a trainer, our goal right now is to lean me out as much as possible and see what we are really working with as far as my proportions, where we need to focus and build and so forth. This has only been my diet since Sept. 16th (I was 117lbs at 22% bf) and tomorrow morning we are doing another body fat analysis, which will include changing up my diet a bit (thank God lol). Wish me luck tomorrow! haha I know there is no luck involved but hoping I dropped down a few more points, I really want to be ready to compete by April!

For how long do you planning on doing an PSMF?
This types of diet really works "BUT" you have to be extreme carreful when ending it.
Because its a Yo-Yo Diet so if you just come back to the typical american eating with only unhealthy and hypercaloric food, you will get a lot more fattier than you were before.

I have done a PSMF but with Lyle mcdonald recomendations (The Rapid FatLoss Diet) and thanks to that i didnt get the fat back because i followed the recomendations.

[Martin Berkhan]

PSMF is a good way to approach rapid fat loss, if that's what you're after.

There's a review on my site where I uncover some of the pros and cons of the diet if anyone is interested.

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2008/0...-mcdonald.html

Fifth book from the top.

[Ms.PersianDoll]

PSMF? I'm still learning! lol I will never go back to the unhealthy American diet I had before, it has definitely been a lifestyle change and I love eating clean. He is working with a nutritionist so its not just a diet he pulled out of thin air :P I believe he based it off a bmr of about 1200 cals for me since I have an office job and am sitting most of the day, my activity, besides weight days is only 40min of running. I started at 117lbs 22%bf and am now 116lbs 18%bf (dropped 4% in 4 weeks). I totally understand the thought process behind not feeding my muscles enough but I have been increasing in strength every week in all body parts. Also my energy level has not suffered, if anything this past week I have felt better than ever! Anywho thoughts/suggestions/your 2 cents are appreciated

[Ms.PersianDoll]

also rapid fat loss is our current goal, we want to get me down to about 12-13% body fat to see what we are working with and want will be needing improvement/building up in order to compete in figure. thanks guys, I love this site!

[Ted Nugent]

This diet is good for someone w/ a very high metabolism, as thyroid output will be lowered via daily fasting...Ori even told a hyperthyroid guy this on his radio show.

just saw this i was always under the impression the metabolism stayed the same if not slightly increased during the fast?

[L.1.3]

just saw this i was always under the impression the metabolism stayed the same if not slightly increased during the fast?

Huh? Whats that dude talking about?

[determined4000]

just saw this i was always under the impression the metabolism stayed the same if not slightly increased during the fast?

um, no.
Calories increase metabolic rate (the more you eat, the higher the rate).
Take your body temp 14-15hrs into a fast and a few hours into feeding window. I am sure it will be higher in the feeding window.
Maybe you confused this with increased secretion of certain hormones?

[L.1.3]

um, no.
Calories increase metabolic rate (the more you eat, the higher the rate).
Take your body temp 14-15hrs into a fast and a few hours into feeding window. I am sure it will be higher in the feeding window.
Maybe you confused this with increased secretion of certain hormones?

Is this completely different than saying more meals per day increases your metabolism which it has been proven to not make much of a difference when eating 3 vs 6 meals given everything is the same?

[xtreem69]

um, no.
Calories increase metabolic rate (the more you eat, the higher the rate).
Take your body temp 14-15hrs into a fast and a few hours into feeding window. I am sure it will be higher in the feeding window.
Maybe you confused this with increased secretion of certain hormones?

I lose fat eating EXACTLY the same calories as i did before when eating the six meals
So the thing about the metabolism its slower when someone its fasting its just wrong, its the opposite actually.
Studies show that resting metabolism increases in fasting (again, quite contrary to popular belief), mediated by increases in catecholamines like noradrenalin.
This was written by Martin Berkham itself and i know its true but its not a great deal.

[Ivankannan]

Does this work if I want to bulk? I am going home in Dec and I want to get bigger. Also I have exams coming around. Preparing and eating six meals a day consumes most of my time.

[determined4000]

Is this completely different than saying more meals per day increases your metabolism which it has been proven to not make much of a difference when eating 3 vs 6 meals given everything is the same?

Yes
# of meals does not matter
Total intake is the determinant

[determined4000]

I lose fat eating EXACTLY the same calories as i did before when eating the six meals
So the thing about the metabolism its slower when someone its fasting its just wrong, its the opposite actually.
Studies show that resting metabolism increases in fasting (again, quite contrary to popular belief), mediated by increases in catecholamines like noradrenalin.
This was written by Martin Berkham itself and i know its true but its not a great deal.

you are correct and misunderstood what I said
Your metabolci rate determining your calorie needs does not change depending on meal freqency (1,3,6,10 meals does not matter)
What I meant meant was body systems will be realtively slower during the fast (slow down) and higher during feeding (sped up) but the overall effect does not change over the course of a day.

[The Solution]

Does this work if I want to bulk? I am going home in Dec and I want to get bigger. Also I have exams coming around. Preparing and eating six meals a day consumes most of my time.

Exactly why i dont want to be packing tupperware and junk with this upcoming, adapt to the lifestyle and you will never change, makes life easy, and its nice to have larger meals and be satisfied IMO.

[Ivankannan]

It seems that for bulking about 3600 kcalories works for me. Given that I am 136lbs now, you might think this is high. But I have been following Vince Delmonte's for sometime now and I have been seeing consistent gains in doing 3600 per day.

Keeping that aside, I am wondering how I am going to consume that much in an 8hr window? I am planning to eat Subway chicken footlong to break the fast before the workout. Just before, during and after the workout all put together I will be taking 75gm of protein with some dextrose and skim milk (not sure about the quantity of dextrose till now). So that accounts to about 600 kcals from subway + 320 kcal from whey + about 90x3=270kcal from milk making a total of about 1200 kcals. After that I need to eat 2400 kcals. I am just throwing these numbers so that somebody could tell me whether there is something wrong.

If I overeat, I am prone to gastrointestinal problems. How does one cope with these? Thanks

[Ted Nugent]

um, no.
Calories increase metabolic rate (the more you eat, the higher the rate).
Take your body temp 14-15hrs into a fast and a few hours into feeding window. I am sure it will be higher in the feeding window.
Maybe you confused this with increased secretion of certain hormones?

def true about the increased body temp during the feeding window. i have also bumped up my carb intake to about 150-200g a day and notice if i wake up at night im sweating and just really hot when i wake up in the morning too. could this be explained by maybe the increased carbs increasing metabolism or thermogenisis or something?...or is it prob my roomate secretly cranking the heat at night lol.

[iDrive]

just saw this i was always under the impression the metabolism stayed the same if not slightly increased during the fast?

I don't think you need to worry.

What I meant meant was body systems will be realtively slower during the fast (slow down) and higher during feeding (sped up) but the overall effect does not change over the course of a day.

This makes sense since the definition of metabolism is just chemical reactions in the body so if your body has nothing to react to then it will slow down(during fast) and when you have the sudden influx of food(eating window) it speeds up because it has something to do.

Also makes sense as to why metabolism is slowed during cutting (less calories to break down/work to do) and increases during bulking (more calories/work)

Metabolism is the set of chemical reactions that occur in living organisms to maintain life. These processes allow organisms to grow and reproduce, maintain their structures, and respond to their environments. Metabolism is usually divided into two categories. Catabolism breaks down organic matter, for example to harvest energy in cellular respiration. Anabolism, on the other hand, uses energy to construct components of cells such as proteins and nucleic acids.

[xtreem69]

It seems that for bulking about 3600 kcalories works for me. Given that I am 136lbs now, you might think this is high. But I have been following Vince Delmonte's for sometime now and I have been seeing consistent gains in doing 3600 per day.

Keeping that aside, I am wondering how I am going to consume that much in an 8hr window? I am planning to eat Subway chicken footlong to break the fast before the workout. Just before, during and after the workout all put together I will be taking 75gm of protein with some dextrose and skim milk (not sure about the quantity of dextrose till now). So that accounts to about 600 kcals from subway + 320 kcal from whey + about 90x3=270kcal from milk making a total of about 1200 kcals. After that I need to eat 2400 kcals. I am just throwing these numbers so that somebody could tell me whether there is something wrong.

If I overeat, I am prone to gastrointestinal problems. How does one cope with these? Thanks

You seems a little underweight to me, i dont think you have to follow I.F, you just have to eat a lot whenever you can,
And if you cant eat that big, because you said that you have gastrointestinal problems, then I HIGHLY DONT RECOMMEND I.F.

I.F its for people who can eat big, if you cant, it will dont work for you.
Why? because you will be starving because you are not eating enough food, so your metabolic rate will go down then a chain of problem will occur in your body, hormones, etc.

I had seen some people who said that I.F werent working for them, they said it was just a fad diet, and the reason was the same i explained here.
Not enough calories and/or bad Macronutrients elections or just eating CRAP without care about the macros=Metabolism down=Hormones Problems=Muscle Loss=Low energy=Hunger,etc...

[L.1.3]

You seems a little underweight to me, i dont think you have to follow I.F, you just have to eat a lot whenever you can,
And if you cant eat that big, because you said that you have gastrointestinal problems, then I HIGHLY DONT RECOMMEND I.F.

I.F its for people who can eat big, if you cant, it will dont work for you.
Why? because you will be starving because you are not eating enough food, so your metabolic rate will go down then a chain of problem will occur in your body, hormones, etc.

I had seen some people who said that I.F werent working for them, they said it was just a fad diet, and the reason was the same i explained here.
Not enough calories and/or bad Macronutrients elections or just eating CRAP without care about the macros=Metabolism down=Hormones Problems=Muscle Loss=Low energy=Hunger,etc...

Instead of a daily I.F try out Eat Stop Eat method which is 1-2x 24 hour fasts per week you really eating everyday but lower calories in total by the end of the week without much thought but technically you doing an 24 hour fast which works. Especially great for bulking and can't consume over 1000 calorie meals in 8 hours or so. Keep the stress down and just follow your instinct in avoiding too much junk but dont starve yourself and when it comes to fasting time dont think about it.

[Martin Berkhan]

just saw this i was always under the impression the metabolism stayed the same if not slightly increased during the fast?

Bull****. But I wasn't expecting anything else from Ori. Just sad he keeps spreading this **** around.

I've written about this before in this very thread, but here we go again. Short term fasting (<36 hrs) boosts metabolism in the rested state slightly (+2-5%) due to increased catecholamine (norepinephrine) output. Long term fasting (>72 hrs) impairs metabolism by the reverse effect.

[rokr99]

So lets say this is my set up?

12am-4pm = fasting
4pm-12am = feeding + workout

Now the issue here is that I workout 5 days a week

Monday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Tuesday: Workout At night (Around 7-8pm)
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Workout At night (Around 7-8pm)
Friday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Saturday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Sunday: Off

My problem that only 2 of my workout days have me lifting during the feeding phase. That means i have to do a fasted workout for 3 of the days? Is this ok or should my schedule be changed???

[xtreem69]

So lets say this is my set up?

12am-4pm = fasting
4pm-12am = feeding + workout

Now the issue here is that I workout 5 days a week

Monday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Tuesday: Workout At night (Around 7-8pm)
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Workout At night (Around 7-8pm)
Friday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Saturday: Workout In the morning (Around 11am-12pm)
Sunday: Off

My problem that only 2 of my workout days have me lifting during the feeding phase. That means i have to do a fasted workout for 3 of the days? Is this ok or should my schedule be changed???

For you i think its better this type of I.F, the 24H-Fasting-24Hours eating, or EOD if i recall

Monday eat until 18H(or whatever time you think its best)-Begin fast for a 24 hours period
Tuesday break the fast after 18H and eat for a 24h window
Wednesday eat until 18H-Begin fast for a 24 window
Thursday Break the fast after 18H and eat for a 24h window
Friday eat until 18H
Saturday, just normal normal eating patterns or you could fast from the 18h of friday till saturday, and thats will be aprox 14h-15h of fasting if you begin to eat at 8 or 9 am, then you could eat until 18h of saturday, begin fast for 24h window
Sunday break the fast after 18H and eat until 18h of monday

A few warnings about this, first you should go to a doctor to realize some blood analysis.
You should never eat to low on calories, or else you will have hormonal problems, muscle loss, etc...
A lot of people who have used I.F, said that this didnt worked for them and they lose muscle, had hormonal problems, low energy, etc... and i always see a common factor with that persons, the ATE TOO FEW CALORIES OR THEIR WERE EATING ONLY CRAP FOOD WITHOUT CARING ABOUT THE MACROS.
One last thing, you dont have to follow exactly as i said above, you could just fast only a few days per week, and if you are going to start I.F, start with precaution and slowly.

[rokr99]

Ive decided to do an EOD type thing. Im gonna change my routine up basically gonna be working out tuesday, thursday, and saturday. The issue still remains is saturday i have to workout during the fasting period. Is there any way around this?

My feeding period is 4pm-12am. If i finish working out saturday morning at like 11-12 is it ok to have a pwo meal during the fasting period and not eat again till 4 o clock? would this ruin the program. After all im eating 1 meal in 1 fasting period once a week.

Or is it possible to change my fasting window for one day of the week? Example friday night stop feeding at like 8-9 (assuming i can get my days calories in from 4-9). Saturday i can eat at like 12-1 pwo and finish eating 8-9. The issue would be switching back to my normal schedule of feeding at 4 i would be fasting for 20hrs.

Idk heres my workout schedule. Tuesday, thursday 7pm-8:30pm Saturday 11am-12noon

Im basically going to be doing a recomp. 500 calories over on workout days. As for the off days i read in an earlier post that 1200-1500 calories is recommended for the off days and only 100g of carbs. Is this too little? Should i follow this or just go with a 500 deficit?

Im trying to avoid a 24 hour fast i like the 16/8 setup.

Anyways i started it today. i cant eat for another 3 hours. Im quite hungry right now. Hoping the hunger will go away as i get used to the program!

[cheimon]

Hi!
I have been following the IF method for 1 month with good results.
I would like to know what is your opinion on taking fiber supplements (like psyllium husk) during the fasting period.
Thanks!

[SuffolkPunch]

Hi!
I have been following the IF method for 1 month with good results.
I would like to know what is your opinion on taking fiber supplements (like psyllium husk) during the fasting period.
Thanks!

None I would have said. You should be getting enough from your diet without resorting to supplments. Taking an excessive amount is great if you enjoy diarreah, I don't know of any other benefits.

[cheimon]

None I would have said. You should be getting enough from your diet without resorting to supplments. Taking an excessive amount is great if you enjoy diarreah, I don't know of any other benefits.

I'm following a low carb diet (only eat carbs from veggies) in combination with IF, so I take some fiber from psyllium husk to complete the amount that I get from veggies. But taking psyllium husk with food is a bad idea because it interacts with nutrient absortion; so I would like to know if it affects in any way the physiollogic effect of the fasting period (can it still be considered a fast if I take fiber?).

thanks!

[determined4000]

But taking psyllium husk with food is a bad idea because it interacts with nutrient absortion;

thanks!

so does dietary fiber (what do you think the reason psyllium husk interacted w/ absorption was?)

[dimasso69]

I'm following a low carb diet (only eat carbs from veggies) in combination with IF, so I take some fiber from psyllium husk to complete the amount that I get from veggies. But taking psyllium husk with food is a bad idea because it interacts with nutrient absortion; so I would like to know if it affects in any way the physiollogic effect of the fasting period (can it still be considered a fast if I take fiber?).

thanks!

I've never heard of Psyllium husk or fiber for that matter absorbing nutrients, the only thing ive heard of absorbing nutrients from you that your body could not use is Olean which is found in fat free chips, and the reason being it has fatty acids attached to it, so fat soluable vitamins are attracted to it, but your body cannot abosorb it due to the shape of it, no enzyme can utilize it. Now could you explain how and why fiber or specifically psyllium husk would take nutrients from your body? Honestly curious.