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  1. #7591
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    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row, but it got me thinking. What if on the days I don't row, I do IF. Since I workout later, I would probably follow the 2 pre-workout meal protocol. My reasoning on this is I could have a 400-500 meal at 2:30pm, another 400-500 at 5:30pm, train from 6:30-8ish, then have 800-1000 post-workout around 8:30-9:00pm. Then, I'd be rowing early next morning, so while I sleep my body would have all night to store the food as energy. When I wake up, have a pre-workout, row, then eat the rest of day. So essentially the idea there is to shift my calories on non-rowing days into an IF pattern to (hopefully) improve performance. Thoughts? Sorry about formatting/spelling, on my phone.

  2. #7592
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    Originally Posted by mkal View Post
    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row, but it got me thinking. What if on the days I don't row, I do IF. Since I workout later, I would probably follow the 2 pre-workout meal protocol. My reasoning on this is I could have a 400-500 meal at 2:30pm, another 400-500 at 5:30pm, train from 6:30-8ish, then have 800-1000 post-workout around 8:30-9:00pm. Then, I'd be rowing early next morning, so while I sleep my body would have all night to store the food as energy. When I wake up, have a pre-workout, row, then eat the rest of day. So essentially the idea there is to shift my calories on non-rowing days into an IF pattern to (hopefully) improve performance. Thoughts? Sorry about formatting/spelling, on my phone.
    That sounds great to me man!

  3. #7593
    1100 total wuwu joelash302's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mkal View Post
    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row, but it got me thinking. What if on the days I don't row, I do IF. Since I workout later, I would probably follow the 2 pre-workout meal protocol. My reasoning on this is I could have a 400-500 meal at 2:30pm, another 400-500 at 5:30pm, train from 6:30-8ish, then have 800-1000 post-workout around 8:30-9:00pm. Then, I'd be rowing early next morning, so while I sleep my body would have all night to store the food as energy. When I wake up, have a pre-workout, row, then eat the rest of day. So essentially the idea there is to shift my calories on non-rowing days into an IF pattern to (hopefully) improve performance. Thoughts? Sorry about formatting/spelling, on my phone.
    Sounds like an interesting plan, keep us posted and good luck! I am always a fan of self-guinea pigging .

  4. #7594
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    Originally Posted by mkal View Post
    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row, but it got me thinking. What if on the days I don't row, I do IF. Since I workout later, I would probably follow the 2 pre-workout meal protocol. My reasoning on this is I could have a 400-500 meal at 2:30pm, another 400-500 at 5:30pm, train from 6:30-8ish, then have 800-1000 post-workout around 8:30-9:00pm. Then, I'd be rowing early next morning, so while I sleep my body would have all night to store the food as energy. When I wake up, have a pre-workout, row, then eat the rest of day. So essentially the idea there is to shift my calories on non-rowing days into an IF pattern to (hopefully) improve performance. Thoughts? Sorry about formatting/spelling, on my phone.
    Sounds good man, you'll get the benefits of fasting regardless. Over time if you stick with it your body will become more efficient. Good luck.
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  5. #7595
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    Originally Posted by makemonie View Post

    At least 160g of protein and the rest can be whatever.
    Theres your problem, and make sure you add in refeed days. Being in a caloric deficit for a long period of time will slow down your metabolism.
    Vegetarians? All animals have the right to be tasty.

  6. #7596
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    Originally Posted by makemonie View Post
    I've been IF for about 3 weeks now. I don't seem to be losing any more fat despite being at a 500cal deficit.

    I am 170lbs @ 10% and I feel like I've stalled. I workout fasted 4 times a week with only BCAA's before and after workout then I eat at 6pm and sleep at 9pm to 7am.

    I eat 1500-1700 cals a day no more.

    At least 160g of protein and the rest can be whatever.

    At this deficit I should be losing weight, right? I'm not. What should I change?
    Cycle macros - have low carb days and be below maintenance on your offdays and high carb days and above maintenance on your workout days.

    It will take some time to lose weight but will also repair your metabolism by the use of the above maintenance days.

  7. #7597
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    Thanks guys I'm going to try starting today. I have a date of November 20 I need to look my especially best so I'm trying to lean out as much as possibl until then.

    Question. If I fast and eat AFTER my workouts should I still save high carb days for days I'm in the gym?

  8. #7598
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by apace View Post
    Regarding coffee as martin said its ok to drink up as much as you like ,Whats
    the limit one can take ( black coffee no sugar no milk no creamers)? as i read many articles against coffee especially , that it drains your energy and makes you feel lathergic , increase cortisol levels , over stimulates your cns
    I don't know why coffee gets so much negative feedback for something that has been around for 1000 of years how can it be bad ?
    I have 2-4 cups a day with no ill effects. I used to even have some directly pre-wo to give me a boost (better than any pre-wo supp you'll buy) I don't think coffee is bad at all.

    Originally Posted by makemonie View Post
    I've been IF for about 3 weeks now. I don't seem to be losing any more fat despite being at a 500cal deficit.

    I am 170lbs @ 10% and I feel like I've stalled. I workout fasted 4 times a week with only BCAA's before and after workout then I eat at 6pm and sleep at 9pm to 7am.

    I eat 1500-1700 cals a day no more.

    At least 160g of protein and the rest can be whatever.

    At this deficit I should be losing weight, right? I'm not. What should I change?
    I don't believe that you're eating 1500-1700 cals and not losing unless you're only like 100lbs. Plus a 500 cal deficit for 3 weeks would only yeild about a 3lb loss which can easily be masked by your scale weight.

    IF isn't magic, if you're in an actual deficit you'll lose weight.

    Originally Posted by mkal View Post
    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row
    You could just keep your eating window always in the morning and just have your "non IF days" as the days you workout since it looks like you only have 2 days you don't row.
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    You do that every single day, and soon you'll have a wall.

  9. #7599
    Registered User makemonie's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't quote the reply but I do in fact weigh ever single thing that I ingest, with a food scale and add with a calculator I feel pretty confident that I do actually not eat above 1700 cals. My waist has slimmed a lot I can tell from my jeans not fitting but I don't feel my bf has changed at all.

    I weigh 170lbs after eating and 165 on a completely 12-18 hr fasted stomach. Idk what to say...

  10. #7600
    Registered User Martin Berkhan's Avatar
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    Having some fun with Skip La Cour in this thread:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post551249253

    Feel free to join in.
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  11. #7601
    Rejected Stone sunngodd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mkal View Post
    So based on previously replies and some more articles I found, IF is not suited for when I row, but it got me thinking. What if on the days I don't row, I do IF. Since I workout later, I would probably follow the 2 pre-workout meal protocol. My reasoning on this is I could have a 400-500 meal at 2:30pm, another 400-500 at 5:30pm, train from 6:30-8ish, then have 800-1000 post-workout around 8:30-9:00pm. Then, I'd be rowing early next morning, so while I sleep my body would have all night to store the food as energy. When I wake up, have a pre-workout, row, then eat the rest of day. So essentially the idea there is to shift my calories on non-rowing days into an IF pattern to (hopefully) improve performance. Thoughts? Sorry about formatting/spelling, on my phone.
    I tried something like that before, didn't work to well. With IF your body gets used to eating at a certain time (because of the hormone ghrelin). Not keeping a consistent feeding window may make your fasts hell, I know it did for me.
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  12. #7602
    Registered User apace's Avatar
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    anyone tried L-tyrosine with coffee ?
    Any good effects or did not make any difference
    i will be trying it out 500 mg a day and see how it goes .
    drinu

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    Originally Posted by apace View Post
    anyone tried L-tyrosine with coffee ?
    Any good effects or did not make any difference
    i will be trying it out 500 mg a day and see how it goes .
    I remember Lyle McDonald prescribing 1-3 gram before fasted cardio in his stubborn fat protocol

    http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/...ead.php?t=2407

    never "felt" anything from it (never took it 2 hours before cardio though), but it probably won't hurt either.

  14. #7604
    ∆--Be the Change--∆ The Big Sleep's Avatar
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    Anybody here eat only 2 or 1 meals in their windows? Ive been trying 2 meals in a 5-6 hour window and am a little concerned about some GI issues from eating 100+ grams of protein in a meal on top of 30+ grams of fat and 100grams of carbs (trying to eat 2500 cals/day with 225g pro/250g carb/65 fat). For some reason my bowel movements are down to maybe once every other or even third day since starting IF a week ago. Just wondering if anyone else takes this approach and has any tips on how to get it all down without too much discomfort. I eat around 25g of fiber/day, is this too little? Im starting to think I should divvy meals up into "courses" and eat them over a good 30-45 minutes.
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  15. #7605
    Registered User bejetah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The Big Sleep View Post
    Anybody here eat only 2 or 1 meals in their windows? Ive been trying 2 meals in a 5-6 hour window and am a little concerned about some GI issues from eating 100+ grams of protein in a meal on top of 30+ grams of fat and 100grams of carbs (trying to eat 2500 cals/day with 225g pro/250g carb/65 fat). For some reason my bowel movements are down to maybe once every other or even third day since starting IF a week ago. Just wondering if anyone else takes this approach and has any tips on how to get it all down without too much discomfort. I eat around 25g of fiber/day, is this too little? Im starting to think I should divvy meals up into "courses" and eat them over a good 30-45 minutes.
    I eat 2 meals / day. But as you named it, it's more like courses. I try to eat slowly, different foods, different flavors, and take a few walks around during the meal. It makes you more aware of the food you're eating and gives a much better sense of fullness.
    The problem it when i'm like ravenously hungry , eating slowly just isn't something easy

  16. #7606
    Registered User bejetah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Having some fun with Skip La Cour in this thread:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post551249253

    Feel free to join in.
    The only intelligent respond i found to your post

    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    The topic of meal frequency affecting metabolism can be approached from a couple of angles: anecdotal or scientific. Martin wins if we're talking about the science/research of it. If we're just sharing anecdotes & personal experiences, then heck, it's all subjective & there really is no argument since nothing can be objectively confirmed or refuted with unbiased data.

    Now here's the problem: people tend to be pretty clueless about the difference between science & anecdote. Therefore, they push anecdote-based claims as if science has solidly supported them. Another problem is that people tend to get emotional when their beliefs are challenged.

  17. #7607
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Having some fun with Skip La Cour in this thread:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post551249253

    Feel free to join in.
    I find it amusing that you still believe scientific research and fact will prevail over steroids and habit.

  18. #7608
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    Here's an article by Anthony Colpo about IF:

    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=551
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  19. #7609
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Having some fun with Skip La Cour in this thread:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post551249253

    Feel free to join in.
    **** like this makes me angry.
    "Why would I trust in science, I got juice and anectotal "evidence", so screw you; you're younger than me, you know nothing."

    Grr. I'm gonna strangle people with the sleeves of my labcoat as soon as I have earned it.

  20. #7610
    Registered User Martin Berkhan's Avatar
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    Regarding Colpo's article, I wrote this in response to a commentator this morning:

    "JMT,

    I will address that soon but I'm baffled by Colpo's sloppiness and dishonesty.

    1. He does not mention that DEHYDRATION is a major ****ing issue and negatively affects performance during Ramadan when he cites those studies.

    2. The rest of the studies are cherry-picked to show only negative effects. For example, he does not mention those numerous studies that show no decrease in REE after ADF/IF or fasting. Nah, he picks the ONE AND ONLY study that shows a decrease.

    He even refers to Alan's review at the end. Alan changed his stance long ago:

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/ala...t-fasting.html

    I find his behavior really bizarre and out of character. His articles are usually good and well researched and I suspect he's just after some extra traffic because he knows IF is a hot topic.

    Nothing wrong with a little link baiting but it does not excuse his sloppy and misleading article.

    How convenient that he's turned off comments on his blog."
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  21. #7611
    Registered User hankst's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter what you wrote, lol.

    Comments are closed.
    From the article.

    It's funny to see how childish and defensive people get when you start throwing facts at them. It's a bit like religion.

  22. #7612
    Vegetarian Animal Rage Zelda55's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Regarding Colpo's article, I wrote this in response to a commentator this morning:

    "JMT,

    I will address that soon but I'm baffled by Colpo's sloppiness and dishonesty.

    1. He does not mention that DEHYDRATION is a major ****ing issue and negatively affects performance during Ramadan when he cites those studies.

    2. The rest of the studies are cherry-picked to show only negative effects. For example, he does not mention those numerous studies that show no decrease in REE after ADF/IF or fasting. Nah, he picks the ONE AND ONLY study that shows a decrease.

    He even refers to Alan's review at the end. Alan changed his stance long ago:

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/ala...t-fasting.html

    I find his behavior really bizarre and out of character. His articles are usually good and well researched and I suspect he's just after some extra traffic because he knows IF is a hot topic.

    Nothing wrong with a little link baiting but it does not excuse his sloppy and misleading article.

    How convenient that he's turned off comments on his blog."
    glad you responded promptly. honestly, all these snipe shots at unconventional dietary timing practices are not only baseless, but misguided. if there's one thing in the nutrition world that allows for enormous flexibility and variability in results, it's meal timing.

    i practice something similar to and influenced by the leangains approach: i train fasted on 5g leucine + caffeine after 16 hours around 1 PM and my PWO meal is not even my biggest...i keep it to 500-600 cals of mostly protein, have some whey/casein 3 hours later to get in most of my protein needs for the day, and then lastly feast w/1700 or so cals about 6 hours later. even this far apart from my PWO window, my approach hasn't had a detrimental effect on my body composition. there's just a lot to be taken from the philosophy to "just hit your macros at the end of the day." i do this because i'm in a transitional period in my life when i'm spending most of my time studying for a grad school exam at home. being at home, it's just most convenient to unwind and have a huge, satisfying meal at night. people forget that wave_length had also been practicing a sort of IF for a long time and shocked people on these forums before, but his methods were also quite unique from warrior diet and leangains (and he advocated far less protein, which i agree with aside from the standpoint of satiety and TEF).

  23. #7613
    Registered User Jorge0886's Avatar
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    Smile

    Originally Posted by Zelda55 View Post
    glad you responded promptly. honestly, all these snipe shots at unconventional dietary timing practices are not only baseless, but misguided. if there's one thing in the nutrition world that allows for enormous flexibility and variability in results, it's meal timing.

    i practice something similar to and influenced by the leangains approach: i train fasted on 5g leucine + caffeine after 16 hours around 1 PM and my PWO meal is not even my biggest...i keep it to 500-600 cals of mostly protein, have some whey/casein 3 hours later to get in most of my protein needs for the day, and then lastly feast w/1700 or so cals about 6 hours later. even this far apart from my PWO window, my approach hasn't had a detrimental effect on my body composition. there's just a lot to be taken from the philosophy to "just hit your macros at the end of the day." i do this because i'm in a transitional period in my life when i'm spending most of my time studying for a grad school exam at home. being at home, it's just most convenient to unwind and have a huge, satisfying meal at night. people forget that wave_length had also been practicing a sort of IF for a long time and shocked people on these forums before, but his methods were also quite unique from warrior diet and leangains (and he advocated far less protein, which i agree with aside from the standpoint of satiety and TEF).
    Great response.

    I also do a method of the Warrior/IF diets. The only thing I ingest throughout the day is water, a multi vitamin, CLA and Sesamin. I lift in a fasted state but I do take xtend for BCAA's before and after my workout. Then I eat one huge meal that hits my macros for calories, making sure I eat at least 1lb but up to 1.5lbs of protein per lbs of LBM I have.

    I have no complaints so far, only a satisfying feeling at the end of each day.

  24. #7614
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Having some fun with Skip La Cour in this thread:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post551249253

    Feel free to join in.
    Entertaining like a tragic comedy.

    The only thing people people set in their "anecdote over science" ways really have going for them is at least they're willing to try to take care of their bodies (however masochistic their ways are) rather than just be another obese human.

    But both are equally as clueless when it comes to nutrition though lol
    You don't try to build a wall.
    You don't set out to build a wall.
    You don't say, "I'm going to build the biggest, baddest, greatest wall that's ever been built!".
    You don't start there.

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    You do that every single day, and soon you'll have a wall.

  25. #7615
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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Regarding Colpo's article, I wrote this in response to a commentator this morning:

    "JMT,

    I will address that soon but I'm baffled by Colpo's sloppiness and dishonesty.

    1. He does not mention that DEHYDRATION is a major ****ing issue and negatively affects performance during Ramadan when he cites those studies.

    2. The rest of the studies are cherry-picked to show only negative effects. For example, he does not mention those numerous studies that show no decrease in REE after ADF/IF or fasting. Nah, he picks the ONE AND ONLY study that shows a decrease.

    He even refers to Alan's review at the end. Alan changed his stance long ago:

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/ala...t-fasting.html

    I find his behavior really bizarre and out of character. His articles are usually good and well researched and I suspect he's just after some extra traffic because he knows IF is a hot topic.

    Nothing wrong with a little link baiting but it does not excuse his sloppy and misleading article.

    How convenient that he's turned off comments on his blog."


    Good stuff. I would be interested to see his reply. But if he does, look out, he gets defensive as hell and will more then likely name call.
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  26. #7616
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    Originally Posted by bejetah View Post
    I eat 2 meals / day. But as you named it, it's more like courses. I try to eat slowly, different foods, different flavors, and take a few walks around during the meal. It makes you more aware of the food you're eating and gives a much better sense of fullness.
    The problem it when i'm like ravenously hungry , eating slowly just isn't something easy
    Well Im actually having issues not eating enough so I don't want to feel full in reality. Im still adapting to IF and just assume my body isnt quite on par with my new eating schedule so Ill just stick it out and hopefully things will normalize. I think Ill try that tactic you said about taking a few breaks when Im eating too walk around and come back for the next course of that meal.
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  27. #7617
    LIVING determined4000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bejetah View Post
    personally i think this was i lifesaver for my past problems with an ED. The worries and thoughts about food are almost completely gone
    ???
    Not according to recent post history
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  28. #7618
    Registered User bejetah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    ???
    Not according to recent post history
    yeah got me right there :S I give up
    Perhaps it's what i wish to believe to be true. Ahh damn it

  29. #7619
    Registered User Ashdrey's Avatar
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    Arrow IF worked for me

    From experience, intermittent fasting worked pretty well for me. Also doing a little cardio here and there helped too. I also tried the whole 6 meal a day plan, with cutting the carbs and upping the protein, I tried it all. With all those spread out meals I was never satisfied; I was always hungry and irritable, craving a lot of food. They did work, but it was more difficult throughout my day. With the IF, I felt much better because I didn't tease my appetite. It was all or nothing, and on the days when I did eat, I ate not only the protein, carbs, and the fruits and vegetables, but I also ate saturated and the healthy fats as well, including sometimes ice cream, and I still got leaner.
    Basically it's all about cutting calories and the re-filling back up again. Create a calorie deficit through whatever means you like, and then another time re-fill your body. That's when I got the most lean: right after reloading up on the calories. I don't have the best genetics for fat loss because I have skinny-fat genetics, and so IF is a testament to how my metabolism did not slow down at all, but rather actually increased.

  30. #7620
    Registered User Simonn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ashdrey View Post
    From experience, intermittent fasting worked pretty well for me. Also doing a little cardio here and there helped too. I also tried the whole 6 meal a day plan, with cutting the carbs and upping the protein, I tried it all. With all those spread out meals I was never satisfied; I was always hungry and irritable, craving a lot of food. They did work, but it was more difficult throughout my day. With the IF, I felt much better because I didn't tease my appetite. It was all or nothing, and on the days when I did eat, I ate not only the protein, carbs, and the fruits and vegetables, but I also ate saturated and the healthy fats as well, including sometimes ice cream, and I still got leaner.
    Basically it's all about cutting calories and the re-filling back up again. Create a calorie deficit through whatever means you like, and then another time re-fill your body. That's when I got the most lean: right after reloading up on the calories. I don't have the best genetics for fat loss because I have skinny-fat genetics, and so IF is a testament to how my metabolism did not slow down at all, but rather actually increased.
    I have the same problem regarding metabolism and "genetics" .. skinny-fat. When i did a 5-6 meal plan I went no carbs and had re-feeds every third day. This worked really well for me but I've been doing that the past 3 years, Its really annoying having to prep and spend your days cooking. I started IF two weeks ago and have gained 5lbs since starting it, even in a caloric deficit. Dont really know whats up, but we'll see what happens. But I do know that i definitely dont look any fatter.
    Last edited by Simonn; 09-24-2010 at 08:46 AM.
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