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  1. #31
    Playboy Lifestyle JnJ23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rippd
    so the question is:

    does hydrolyzed whey isolate (because of speed of absorbtion) create a more anabolic environment as opposed to non hydrolyzed whey?

    yes, considering efficient digesting...
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  2. #32
    Registered User smeton_yea's Avatar
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    hydrolyzed whey and wpI hydrolyed whey are way better than whey. ..NICE=)
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  3. #33
    Chairman of the board Big Cat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    who is we? what pharmaceutcial company do you work for?
    Its not a company, its the university of brussels.
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  4. #34
    Chairman of the board Big Cat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smeton_yea
    If i Drink(ill pick a brand i drink now) Dymatize Elite(butter cream toffee mix) ; It'll sit in my stomach,and ill have to keep still or ill get an upset stomach.

    On the other hand,if i take ast's vp2 ,im fine.

    Im a student and im on the run in the morning,so i take vp2 in the mornings on schooldays.

    Point is vp2 doesnt just sit there.vp2 is better
    if you have a weak stomach, poor digestion, lots of stress or are lactose intolerant, yes. Otherwise just drink milk. Its cheap, its easy to get, doesn't take any preparation, mixing, shaking or stirring and goes well with most foods. It's 450-650 calories per liter, well-balanced (48g of carbs, 32g of protein, 15g of fat) meal, low insulin response, high in calcium.
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  5. #35
    Chairman of the board Big Cat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JnJ23
    yes, considering efficient digesting...
    Yes, but protein loss is also greater, which leaves the question up in the air which is more anabolic over time. With casein there is a net protein gain, with whey there is a net protein loss... (Boirie et al, 1997)
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Big Cat
    Yes, but protein loss is also greater, which leaves the question up in the air which is more anabolic over time. With casein there is a net protein gain, with whey there is a net protein loss... (Boirie et al, 1997)
    So what you would really want is hydrolyzed casein protein, right?
    I'm planing on using hydrolized casein(50% hydralysed) mixed with microfiltered whey.
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  7. #37
    Registered User Rippd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Big Cat
    Yes, but protein loss is also greater, which leaves the question up in the air which is more anabolic over time. With casein there is a net protein gain, with whey there is a net protein loss... (Boirie et al, 1997)
    For post workout I do a scoop of VP2, 35 grms. dextrose but then I follow it up with a food meal within 30 minutes so would that counter the protein loss?
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  8. #38
    Playboy Lifestyle JnJ23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Big Cat
    Yes, but protein loss is also greater, which leaves the question up in the air which is more anabolic over time. With casein there is a net protein gain, with whey there is a net protein loss... (Boirie et al, 1997)
    at the right time, it's all useful...

    for other times, you would want casein blend, or even hydrolyzed casein which has many benefits.
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  9. #39
    Banned Patrick Arnold's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smeton_yea
    If i Drink(ill pick a brand i drink now) Dymatize Elite(butter cream toffee mix) ; It'll sit in my stomach,and ill have to keep still or ill get an upset stomach.

    On the other hand,if i take ast's vp2 ,im fine.

    Im a student and im on the run in the morning,so i take vp2 in the mornings on schooldays.

    Point is vp2 doesnt just sit there.vp2 is better

    then your problem may be a protein allergy to whey. maybe the pre-hydrolysis of the whey destroys the allergenic proteins.
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  10. #40
    Registered User smeton_yea's Avatar
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    Im Just going to stick WORKS FOR ME BETTER.


    BTW the guy who made th comment that takes thirty five grams of protein postraining with d4extose then has a meal thirty minutes later...yes thats fine...your following the ast method,which im also following,Its Working.

    Casein is Good before bed.(*ex.cottege cheese)

    Its really very simple,Stick to the basics and you wont go wrong.
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  11. #41
    Chairman of the board Big Cat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wicked2night
    So what you would really want is hydrolyzed casein protein, right?
    I'm planing on using hydrolized casein(50% hydralysed) mixed with microfiltered whey.
    No, the whole point of casein is that it digests slowly and slows gastric emptying to give you a time release effect and long term positive nitrogen balance. If you hydrolyze it you lose that, then its just the same thing as hydrolyzed whey, cept the amino make up is different. Hydrolyzed stuff is utter crap. As long as you can digest, you don't need predigested protein, simple as that.
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  12. #42
    Chairman of the board Big Cat's Avatar
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    Big Cat is offline
    Originally Posted by Rippd
    For post workout I do a scoop of VP2, 35 grms. dextrose but then I follow it up with a food meal within 30 minutes so would that counter the protein loss?
    If its sufficiently high in various proteins, of course.
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  13. #43
    Banned Patrick Arnold's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Big Cat
    No, the whole point of casein is that it digests slowly and slows gastric emptying to give you a time release effect and long term positive nitrogen balance. If you hydrolyze it you lose that, then its just the same thing as hydrolyzed whey, cept the amino make up is different. Hydrolyzed stuff is utter crap. As long as you can digest, you don't need predigested protein, simple as that.

    yeah thats what my intuition tells me too but I do still want to look at this with an open mind. If there is research showing the hydrolyzed stuff has unexpected benefits than i am interested in seeing it

    i am always running into research which turns everything i thought i knew upside down, so I am not going to completely write off this stuff quite yet
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by Big Cat
    No, the whole point of casein is that it digests slowly and slows gastric emptying to give you a time release effect and long term positive nitrogen balance. If you hydrolyze it you lose that, then its just the same thing as hydrolyzed whey, cept the amino make up is different. Hydrolyzed stuff is utter crap. As long as you can digest, you don't need predigested protein, simple as that.
    Well the casein is 50% hydrolyzed that means that from one scoop you would get 15g of hydrolyzed-fast absorbing protein and 15g of casein wich releses through time. And with that i'll be adding whey for an absorbtion rate in between.
    So your first two sentence doesen't make sense to me.
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  15. #45
    Banned Patrick Arnold's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wicked2night
    Well the casein is 50% hydrolyzed that means that from one scoop you would get 15g of hydrolyzed-fast absorbing protein and 15g of casein wich releses through time. And with that i'll be adding whey for an absorbtion rate in between.
    So your first two sentence doesen't make sense to me.


    that is not what 50% hydrolyzed means

    It basically means that you have reduced the (average) size of the protein molecules by 50% through enzymatic hydrolysis. I say average because some molecules may be very hydrolyzed while some may be just a little. Most would fall in between that though

    100% hydrolyzed would mean that you reduced the casein completely down to their constituent amino acids
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  16. #46
    Registered User JWangSDC's Avatar
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    QUestion for Big Cat.


    Does that mean you wouldn't recommend ingesting hydrolyzed whey protein RIGHT AFTER A WORKOUT? I would imagine in that situation only, or immediately after you wake up, it might be of some benefit?
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    Erotic Politician BiggJohn's Avatar
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    So what's everybody overall consensus? Is WPC just as good as WPI if your diet can absorb the extra fat and carbs?
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    Originally Posted by JnJ23
    wpi hydrolyzed high grade does have more beneftis than your ordinary isolate/concentrate etc... as a matter a fact it is one of the best protein you can have. when protein is hydrolyzed it is split up into smaller chain peptides and amino acids, and that makes it more biologically accessible to the user. it's the most digestible type of protein, and most of it is absorbed through the small intestine, making it that much better...

    true protein, offers the best quality of proteins, and this is one they reccommend to all who use whey as a protein source in their diet, not to mention the best prices around.
    Yeah your right about the Biological value but a high quality protein isnt just BV you have to se with the PDCAAS.
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    Originally Posted by BiggJohn
    So what's everybody overall consensus? Is WPC just as good as WPI if your diet can absorb the extra fat and carbs?
    i would have to say i have truly seen better results using wpi over wpc, albeit they might not be hugely better, but they are still better. as far as wpi products i would have to say gf pro rasb lemonade (which is what im using right now and almost out of) is on the top of my list, but i just ordered some vpx zero carb protein, cytostport cytopro, ast vp2, and some nectar. the nectar i had in the past was not nearly as good as the gf pro, and i think all the nectar lovers should give gf pro a try because imo it is much better, but i did just buy some nectar-everyone needs to change things up now and then.
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    Registered User Doctorx79's Avatar
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    You should try the Substance WPI from Primaforce.
    Taste awesome and a high quality protein.
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    Originally Posted by Doctorx79
    You should try the Substance WPI from Primaforce.
    Taste awesome and a high quality protein.
    lol, i agree, it is good, good enough that i have a little bit of grape sitting in my pantry right now. haha
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    Originally Posted by BiggJohn
    So what's everybody overall consensus? Is WPC just as good as WPI if your diet can absorb the extra fat and carbs?
    Provided the overall amount is similar, I doubt whether anyone would see any huge difference in gains.
    Of course Im sure someone will disagree
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    yeah, i do, read my post above
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    little gains over time add up to alot and have an advantage over the one who didnt come across a bunch a little gains

    and yes big gains are the best
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    Question for Patrick Arnold

    Hello Sir,

    Would you endorse a post workout mix of...

    1 scoop GF Pro
    5 to 10 grams of Giant Nutrition WPH
    10 grams of Nutragammax (in addition to the serum in GF Pro)

    If not, how would you tweak this?

    Thanks for your time,

    Zendo
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    There are different grades of WPH as some have stated. If you are still interested in WPH then you should look for a grade of any where from 15-20% hydrolyzed. VPX's WPH is only around 4% if you call and ask them. That is why it tastes so good. Anything-above 25% hydrolysis tastes like vomit and smells like ammonia. As far as I know no one makes a 100% hydrolyzed WPH. I personally use a 20% WPH and can actually feel the speed of absorption. However I need to take it with carbs or else my blood sugar drops below 80 30 minuets after ingestion. WPH is the fastest absorbing form of the Whey family [1]. It delivers the full amino acid profile in 80 minutes and is the least allergenic form of whey protein, as it has already gone through an enzyme bath and is partially pre-digested. WPH also contains virtually no fat, lactose, and cholesterol.

    [1] Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.

    Bellow is a small amount of information from David L. Barr.

    "Back when it first came out, whey protein was pretty kick ass because it was discovered to be very high quality. Then research came out that made it even more kick ass, because we could classify it as a "fast" digesting protein compared to casein (Boirie et al., 1997).

    You know what? This research stands today, because compared to casein, whey protein really is fast! Then again, a tortoise is also fast compared to a snail, but that doesn?t mean we want to take a tortoise to a greyhound park. In other words, we?ve been considering whey a "fast" protein only because we?ve been comparing it to something incredibly slow. When we compare the digestibility of whey to the gold standard of amino acids, on which we base nearly all of our post workout nutritional data, whey flat out sucks.

    This is incredibly frustrating because all of the ways to maximize protein synthesis we?ve been discussing have used amino acids. So we need to either use pure amino acids or use something that closely resembles their absorptive properties. This is where whey protein hydrolysate comes in. The protein is already broken up into large peptides, so we get a rapid absorption with peak levels reaching the blood at around 80 minutes (Calbet and MacLean, 2002), compared to 60 minutes for pharmaceutical grade amino acids (Borsheim et al., 2002).

    Unfortunately, even the highly touted whey isolate is completely useless for our timing purposes here, because it just takes too long to get taken up by the gut (Dangin et al., 2002).

    In light of these data and the growing body of literature contradicting the versatility and usefulness of whey protein, it should henceforth be classified as "moderate" or "intermediate" speed protein, with only whey hydrolysate and amino acids existing as truly "fast."

    It may be difficult to adjust our thinking, but this is simply more dogma that needs to be destroyed in order to bring us up to date with the proper application of research.

    The main competitor for the title of best protein is whey isolate, but after reading the following you'll see that it comes in a distant second to hydrolysate. Although you wouldn't have to worry about a catabolic decline in blood aminos with whey isolate, it has its own problems.

    Even though it used to be considered very high quality, whey isolate takes more than two full hours to elevate blood amino acid levels so that they reach desired levels (Dangin et al., 2002). Having an absorption time one third longer than hydrolysate, whey isolate will give a smaller peak in amino acid levels and reduced protein synthesis stimulation as shown in Figure 2. In other words, we can have a peak twice as high or one that lasts twice as long for a given quantity of protein ingestion, but we can't have it both ways.

    It's been shown that consuming amino acids in two separate doses after a workout will give two distinct but equally high spikes in protein synthesis (Borsheim et al., 2002). Either a pre or post-workout serving of WPH followed by another 80 minutes later should give the desired doubling effect. This concept is illustrated in Figure 3 with whey hydrolysate consumption.



    Figure 3. Extrapolated protein synthesis levels following consumption of whey hydrolysate at time 0 and again 80 minutes later.*

    Again, trying this with whey isolate is useless, because it just doesn't have the optimal absorption qualities we need.

    Here's another valuable tip: the post-workout nutrient window for muscle protein synthesis will last at least 24 hours (Tipton et al., 2003), so another serving when you're fasted (i.e. the first meal of the day) will most likely elicit the same exaggerated effect of stimulating protein synthesis!"


    You can find WPH here:
    http://search.bodybuilding.com/searc...ption&oe=UTF-8
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    I forgot that there is one company that makes a high percentage WPH, but it is around 45-50 dollars a pound unflavored.
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    WPH VS Casein

    Originally Posted by Big Cat View Post
    Yes, but protein loss is also greater, which leaves the question up in the air which is more anabolic over time. With casein there is a net protein gain, with whey there is a net protein loss... (Boirie et al, 1997)
    You might find the following study interesting in that the researchers used experienced male bodybuilders and not college freshmen who like to collect stamps:

    The International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, examined the effects of supplementation with different proteins, namely hydrolyzed whey protein and casein, on muscle strength and body composition during a 10 week, supervised resistance training program Importantly, this study was conducted on experienced male bodybuilders. In a double-blind protocol, these guys supplemented their normal diet with either whey hydrolysate or casein (1.5 grams per kilogram of body mass/day). What happened? Well, this well-controlled study indicated that:
    1. The whey hydrolysate group achieved a significantly greater gain in lean body mass than the casein group (5.0 vs. 0.8 kilograms). Also, the whey hydrolysate group lost significantly body fat while the casein group gained body fat (-1.5 vs. +0.2 kilograms).

    2. The whey hydrolysate group also achieved significantly greater improvements in muscle strength (measured by barbell bench press, squat and cable pull-down) compared to the casein group in each assessment of strength. Furthermore, when the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the whey group still achieved significantly greater improvements in strength compared to the casein group.

    In conclusion, it is becoming increasingly clear that high-quality whey protein hydrolysate is the best source of protein for serious strengh-power athletes. The lean body mass gains observed in the whey hydrolysate group of 5 KILOGRAMS is truly nothing short of phenomenal in a trained athlete. Indeed, the superiority of whey protein hydrolysate may have something to do with its insulin boosting actions and its extremely rapid absorption and uptake.2 Interestingly enough, this study also demonstrated whey hydrolysate ingestion promoted fat loss; high-quality whey has ACE-inhibitory activy, which leads to inhibition of storage fat synthesis in fat tissue. This new research clearly helps to shed some light on why athletes using WPH products are achieving such rapid and significant muscle growth.

    1. Cribb PJ et al. Int J Sports Nutr Exerc Metab 2006;16(5).
    2. Manninen AH. Br J Sports Med. 2006 Sep 1; [Epub ahead of print].
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    Someone Posted This at Our Sister Publication.

    A recent study at the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center was implemented to determine the effects different protein-containing solutions have on insulin response and amino acid availability in healthy humans. Four different solutions of 600 milliliters were used in this study. The glucose solution (control) contained only glucose, and the three additional solutions contained the same quantity of glucose and protein, but proteins were derived from different sources. This study indicated that:

    1. Ingestion of glucose and protein hydrolysate results in synergistic and fast increases in blood insulin. In fact, protein hydrolysates stimulated an increase in blood insulin that was two and four times greater than that produced by the intact (non-hydrolyzed) milk protein solution and glucose solution, respectively.

    2. Protein hydrolysates are absorbed at a faster rate from the small intestine than are intact milk proteins, as reflected by the rapid increase in the blood concentration of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) in peripheral blood.

    3. Whey protein hydrolysate elicited the greatest availability of amino acids during the three-hour postprandial (occurring after a meal) period. This difference was attributed to the rapid increase in blood amino acids evoked during the first 40 minutes of the digestive period, during which the increase was about 37% greater after the ingestion of whey protein hydrolysate solution than that after ingestion of the intact milk protein solution. The authors suggested that the association of high levels of blood amino acids and insulin might explain a superiority of protein hydrolysates over intact proteins in promoting better nitrogen utilization (i.e., greater anabolism), especially when administered in combination with high glycemic carbohydrates.

    Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagons and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J. Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.
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    How many lifters were used in the studies, please?
    For all we know, 2 lifters were used.
    If the control "group" consists of one guy, and the hydrolyzed whey group consists of one guy,
    then the outcome of the study could be due to any number of variables.
    If both groups had 30 subjects, then that'll confirm it for me.



    1. Cribb PJ et al. Int J Sports Nutr Exerc Metab 2006;16(5).
    2. Manninen AH. Br J Sports Med. 2006 Sep 1; [Epub ahead of print].
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