I gotta bitch! - Take a good look

[legalgear]

Guys, I gotta complain a bit about our industry. We go out of our way to make sure that every ingredient in our products are 100% in the bottle you buy. We source all of our ingredients our selves to make sure that when we release a product, you get what you pay for. It seems that the a lot of other companies don't hold themselves to the same standards and I am frustrated. I am not talking about the reputable people that come on the board and obviously care about their products, I am talking about so many of the competitors that just don't give a ****. I was talking to one supplement owner about the price of M1T. He tells me what he is paying per bottle for a finnished bottle of M1T from a certain manufacturer. I do the math and it is IMPOSSIBLE to make the product for what he buys it for... Oh well right?

I really wish Mike's supplement testing site took off. As one person who actually pays a lot of money to make sure his stuff contains what it says, I am just bothered by the whole thing. I for one look forward to government standardization as much as I am opposed to government intervention, it is unfair that other people get away with making products that don't contain what is on the label... Thanks for listening!

E

[CanadaBBOY]

I agree. It's scary to think what you might be getting from a lot of companies. Things that they don't put on their labels.

As a natural athelete if i ever got a product and it had illegal substances in it, i would be screwed.

I think it's good to figure out companies such as yours, the good companies, and stick to them.

Unfortunatly i never see any of your stuff in Canada, and due to boarder issues i usually avoid ordering from the states. But for what it's worth i'm a supporter of your company and your cause.

It would be nice to some how get mikes label claims site going more.

[American Hunk]

As much as i wish there was some agency reponsible for the claims and contents of nutritional supplements, i would rather do without such an agency than to hand that power to a branch of our government.

[onshow]

perhaps you, as well as the other reputable coy's can put in some cash to set up an independant testing board. it is in all your best interests. think of it as an elite group of supplement coy's. it wont be a test to see how good they are, but basically to check label ingredients. As long as its kept independant id be more inclined to purchase only from these companies than other ones.

it is hard for you to force all companies to agree with your ideology, so the best thing to do is differentiate yourselves from the others.

my 2 cents.

[legalgear]

Not a bad idea. The only problem is that you only touch a select few with something like that. Maybe this post was out of line and maybe not, but I want you to know that it is frustrating when you actually do spend the money to make a quality product and others do not. I know most of the companies that come on this site are reputable. I would look at companies like *****, Ergopharm, Syntrax, Molecular, Designer, MAN, Diesel, Therachem and many others on this board as people that care about quality and ingredients. Please pass the word on to people that we are not all the same and there are some of us that really do make quality products to the best of our abilities.

E

[RBEliminator]

Originally posted by legalgear
I was talking to one supplement owner about the price of M1T. E

I've found it on an anonymous website at $9.99 bottle. Companies are acting like the **** is candy, and at 9 a bottle is it pure M1 is my question.

[legalgear]

I wouldn't say price is an indicator. Mike and BB.com obviously sell good product, just a story of what goes on in the industry very often...

[American Hunk]

Originally posted by onshow
perhaps you, as well as the other reputable coy's can put in some cash to set up an independant testing board. it is in all your best interests. think of it as an elite group of supplement coy's. it wont be a test to see how good they are, but basically to check label ingredients.

mike did that and got his azz sued. i don't think many individuals or co's will risk it for the sake of the people. you need some kind of a large, independent organization that can test many supplements and be able to withstand the monetary loss due to lawsuits. the question is who will fund this noble enterprise?

[Skorpius]

If Mike got sued, then that brings the question to my mind as to how Consumer Reports is able to do their testing. They do not have advertisements in their magazine so as to not be held accountable and just print the results of their tests and comparisons. How is that different than subjecting supps to the same kind of treatment? As long as he was not breaking down all the ingriedients and printing the recipe, I don't see how legal action can be used for just printing test results. That only means that they have something to hide in my book.

[American Hunk]

Originally posted by Skorpius
If Mike got sued, then that brings the question to my mind as to how Consumer Reports is able to do their testing. .

CR makes a ton of money from their subscriptions( i've been a CR subscriber for 10 years!) and from private donations. besides, they are non-profit, so they are basically non-biased in their testing because they have no asses to kizz. further, they can withstand lawsuits because they have a ton of money. they had to fight a costly lawsuit brought on by that junk suv(forget name?) that failed their safety "flip" test.

[thickjerk]

thats why i buy from bb.com, you or sledge only. you get what you pay for. like midas says you can pay a little now or a lot later. reputable companies would have no problem with someone coming in and testing their products.

[chefmatth]

I like legal gear I just feel the m4ohn was underdosed big time, so I traded it off. 2mgs is not enough, really to see a pronoced effect you would need 15 to 20 pills a day. Thats a lot of $$ e dog. But over all I would agree with your statement. The supplement industry is way out of hand. Really If youre an educated body builder you will avoid most of the crap companies are selling and stick to the basics, protien, creatine, pro hormones and or steriods(depending on your own preferences). Unfortunately a lot of bodybuilders are kids or novices and buy based on ads and usless and untested information. Buy the way cold fusion was really a good supplement IMO. Might have to try the Pm next.

[Big_Spaz]

EDog,

I know what your saying. But you just have to keep doing what your doing and not worry about what other people are doing. I know you want everyone to be honest and reputable like you guys are, but the cold hard facts is that they aren't. And it's just up to us as consumers to know who we trust and who we don't. And that will then be the deciding factor on what we purchase.


I love your products and hope you continue to put out quality products. Then worry about the price later.



-Spaz

[bigpump23]

yo E don't sweat it man, those of us here know that real you are brother and don't worry we hold you down

[Your Ad Here]

Originally posted by Skorpius
If Mike got sued, then that brings the question to my mind as to how Consumer Reports is able to do their testing. They do not have advertisements in their magazine so as to not be held accountable and just print the results of their tests and comparisons. How is that different than subjecting supps to the same kind of treatment? As long as he was not breaking down all the ingriedients and printing the recipe, I don't see how legal action can be used for just printing test results. That only means that they have something to hide in my book.

Consumer Reports doesn't sell what they're testing. Someone who sells supplements to test other supplements can't be objective, or at least won't be seen as being objective. You can't have Chevrolet doing reports on Fords. It must be an unbias organization. The question is; who should that be? The FDA?

Enough people subscribe to CR to make it worthwhile. There's no way an independant company testing supplements could profit.

[CPizzle]

If quality, reputable manufactures want to further differentiate and distance themselves from the firms that are able to pedal inferior products due to price, marketing, whatever, the smaller firms will need to band together. The fact is that for many people, price heavily influences their supp purchasing habits. Some firms are tempted to reduce costs by any means necessary to capture this market segment, even if it means using inferior ingredients. There is nothing wrong with this as long as (1) the products are not harmful and (2) consumers are aware of variations of the same supplement.

Ethical supp companies need to get together, form an alliance, and go from there. Together, you should encourage the formation of an independent organization responsible for ethical, quality, and other standards - something similar to an ISO for nutrition products.

If you need some help, shoot me a line as I firmly believe in this and enjoy tossing ideas back and forth with like minded people.

[Bufford]

EDog,

What M1T product are you talking about? I only know of 2, M1T products that are cheap (at least money wise). That is Mike product and Higher Powers product. I thought these two prducts were pretty reputable, am I wrong in that I thought that?

[Dan V]

Maybe the problem isn't so much with the companies, but with the legal system itself. A guy tries to make sure that these companies aren't lying to people and sets up a product testing operation... then gets sued. Is that justice? The fact that someone could even get sued for that is basically the legal system saying it's OK for corporations to lie and rip people off. What a kick in the face.

[Your Ad Here]

CPizzle...Dan...again, there's a bigger picture. MANY companies see themselves as honest. Who's to say who's ethical? As a matter of fact, it would make sense for an UNethical company to ally with those who are. Who's watching the watchdogs?

Another thing to realize is, some companies may be genuinely honest but are dealing with manufacturers who underdose, unbeknownst to the distributors. It isn't so simple. If you put out a product that you thought was good and someone claimed it didn't meet standards, and that hurt your business, what would you do? You'd sue! That's the way it works. Anyone can make any claim about anything and anyone can make a counter claim it's bullsh*it. It isn't a cut and dry procedure and the belief that it is, is naive.

I'm fully aware that some companies are disreputable. Hell, i think even some of the biggest, most reputable companies like Twin Labs sell total crap. It may meet standards, but what are the standards for worthless junk like Methoxy and Myostatin? It may have what the label claims but it's still garbage. It's up to the customer to do his homework.

[Dan V]

Good point about the manufacturers, Your Ad, I hadn't thought of that. I guess there are just too many unknowns.

I think that the sports sup industry is still just in its infant stage, and its sadly true that there's a lot of garbage out there. Hopefully in years to come a lot of it will be phased out, but I guess it will just be replaced with new garbage anyways. It always comes down to caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware."

[1fast400]

I've spent over 40,000 dollars defending LabelClaimsTesting.com. I won every lawsuit that was ever put against me. One just got thrown out and sadly didn't go far enough for an antislap motion, which would have had them pay for my legal expenses. Oh well.

I did testing on a lot of products in which results weren't released because I was going to be sued the day they hit the site. Granted the products were purchased from a neutral site, by the lab and there were no chain of custody issues. Sadly, I still have to defend myself if dragged into court, which cost you a min of about 10k.

[wardog]

Originally posted by Your Ad Here

Another thing to realize is, some companies may be genuinely honest but are dealing with manufacturers who underdose, unbeknownst to the distributors. It isn't so simple. If you put out a product that you thought was good and someone claimed it didn't meet standards, and that hurt your business, what would you do? You'd sue! That's the way it works. Anyone can make any claim about anything and anyone can make a counter claim it's bullsh*it. It isn't a cut and dry procedure and the belief that it is, is naive.

.

It is NOT a cut and dry procedure, however as a supplement manufacturer you CAN take as many precautions as possible.

I am the guy who "makes it happen" for Legalgear in terms of getting products made, etc. I can tell you there are many bottlers/cappers out there who will not do business with you if you provide your own ingredients. They insist on sourcing everything. Those are companies I refuse to deal with, because I cannot assure ANYTHING then.

What I can do is purchase my raws from reputable companies, that I KNOW do product testing, and then have those raws shipped to my bottler who WILL work with customer supplied raws. Now, I cannot assue 100% that said manufacturer would not keep a kilo and sell it out the back door, but the odds are MUCH slimmer of that happening, especially if you have a good relationship and have visited your manufacturers.

It requires micromanaging on a level that most people on these boards have NO idea of. I didn't before I got into this field myself. It has left me with a great amount of respect for people like Pat A, and Bill L and others, because believe it or not, if you do not micromanage everything YOURSELF, something screws up. From formulation to sourcing to manufacturing to shipping, each and every step requires tremendous oversite.

It also requires common sense. If I get pricing on a raw material, and everybody is around $45-$65 a kilo, and one comes in at $20 a kilo, something just isnt right there. I will say everybody will make a mistake here and there, but on the other hand, common sense tells me "when it is too good to be true" it typically is. Unfortunatly, it seems quite a few companies out there do not feel the same way.

[Number 5]

here's an idea: mike, legalgear, bb.com and other retailers willing to cooperate could include a $1-2 donation option with the order form for the purpose of label claims testing. i am sure a lot of people would not mind dishing out an extra dollar per order for a good cause.

each time these donations added up to $10,000, mike could then publish one of the tests from labelclaimstesting. if no lawsuit came forth he could publish another and so forth until one of the companies sued in which case the money would be used for the lawsuit. just an idea, do you think this would be feasible?

-5

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by onshow
perhaps you, as well as the other reputable coy's can put in some cash to set up an independant testing board. it is in all your best interests. think of it as an elite group of supplement coy's. it wont be a test to see how good they are, but basically to check label ingredients. As long as its kept independant id be more inclined to purchase only from these companies than other ones.

it is hard for you to force all companies to agree with your ideology, so the best thing to do is differentiate yourselves from the others.

my 2 cents.

if a bunch of companies put the money in then it is no longer independent. other companies will sue you. they will show that the testing board was funded by competitors and the judge will slam his gavel

I have pondered this situation endlessly and discussed it with attorneys and other business folks etc. the only solution is government intervention.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Skorpius
If Mike got sued, then that brings the question to my mind as to how Consumer Reports is able to do their testing. They do not have advertisements in their magazine so as to not be held accountable and just print the results of their tests and comparisons. How is that different than subjecting supps to the same kind of treatment? As long as he was not breaking down all the ingriedients and printing the recipe, I don't see how legal action can be used for just printing test results. That only means that they have something to hide in my book.

Consumer Reports is a truly independent organization. There is no conflict of interest issues with them. They have nothing at stake in regards to the results of their studies

Mike sells products so he immediately has conflict of interest problems. Depending on the results, Mike might serve to benefit from them.

yes, i believe his intentions are good but in court mike would be ruled against

[American Hunk]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
the only solution is government intervention.

that's not a solution, but another problem. the pharms will essentially control this government agency to help ban as many supplements especially herbal supplements they seem competitive. remember ephedra?

[Number 5]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
if a bunch of companies put the money in then it is no longer independent. other companies will sue you. they will show that the testing board was funded by competitors and the judge will slam his gavel

I have pondered this situation endlessly and discussed it with attorneys and other business folks etc. the only solution is government intervention.

Patrick, Mike just wrote that the way he set up the testing there were no chain of custody issues and each time someone sued him, he could beat it, but the problem was that each lawsuit cost about $10,000 in legal fees. so as i see it, the problem is coming up with the funding to fend of lawsuits, but maybe this could be done with donations from retailers and customers?

also, big kudos to mike for using his time and money to do the testing. i hope he still keeps the project alive.

-5

[wardog]

Originally posted by Number 5
Patrick, Mike just wrote that the way he set up the testing there were no chain of custody issues and each time someone sued him, he could beat it, but the problem was that each lawsuit cost about $10,000 in legal fees. so as i see it, the problem is coming up with the funding to fend of lawsuits, but maybe this could be done with donations from retailers and customers?


-5

Have you ever been sued? Even if he won every case, it is still the process, the depositions, the worrying that will eat a man alive. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and can tell you, no matter HOW confident you are of victory, it still tears you apart. There is always the chance of illogical happening, no matter how you slice it.

Do you think the execs at McDonalds didn't laugh their asses off when they were sued by some lady for burning herself with hot coffee? How unbelievably stupid does THAT sound? Well, the execs certainly didnt laugh when they had to pay out millions. Now every coffee cup you see has "Caution, contents HOT" all because of one stupid uneducated woman with a damn good lawyer. Unfortunatly, thats America for you

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by wardog
It is NOT a cut and dry procedure, however as a supplement manufacturer you CAN take as many precautions as possible.

I am the guy who "makes it happen" for Legalgear in terms of getting products made, etc. I can tell you there are many bottlers/cappers out there who will not do business with you if you provide your own ingredients. They insist on sourcing everything. Those are companies I refuse to deal with, because I cannot assure ANYTHING then.

What I can do is purchase my raws from reputable companies, that I KNOW do product testing, and then have those raws shipped to my bottler who WILL work with customer supplied raws. Now, I cannot assue 100% that said manufacturer would not keep a kilo and sell it out the back door, but the odds are MUCH slimmer of that happening, especially if you have a good relationship and have visited your manufacturers.

you should be testing the product from the supplier before it goes to the manufacturer and then testing the finished product that comes back from the manufacturer. Your description of how you run things here sounds like it involves alot of "trust" but not much verification.

sorry to bust on ya, but hey

[wardog]

No offense taken Pat, I learn each and every day. As I have posted previously, I WISH I had half the knowledge of this process you have, but I am getting there .

FYI I do require testing or certs for EVERY raw I use. On certain products, I also test the finished product as well. Testing a glutamine peptide product once it is completed seems a bit far fetched, IMO, except of course testing that net weight, etc is correct, but on other products I agree with you completely, and do test.

Always willing to learn more tho