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  1. #1
    Norse Force Berserker-Power's Avatar
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    Post Creatine and Glutamine together ???

    Most supplement stack articals i have read the person is taking a form of Creatine and a form of Glutamine however these 2 supplements both fight for the same substrate carriers and co-transporters meaning that one has to lose out.

    what do you guys think ? do you take both ?
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    i take both, but at least a half hour apart. paul delia sez they compete but paul cribb thinks they dont. no1 really knows. but to be sure of optimal uptake of either supplement, i recommend taking them apart from each other.
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    Getswole Guru DAMBIGlsu's Avatar
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    Stop reading articles buddy, start reading medical journals thats where you'll find the truth. But i take my creatine 1 hour prior to trainning and then glutamine 15 mins before. Take both with a good electrolyte blend.
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    Originally posted by DAMBIGlsu
    Stop reading articles buddy, start reading medical journals thats where you'll find the truth. But i take my creatine 1 hour prior to trainning and then glutamine 15 mins before. Take both with a good electrolyte blend.
    read what medical journals "buddy"? no1 really knows for sure, theres alot of factors that are involved, 1 being that they are both sodium dependent. dont tell me to look at medical journals unless u have some? got any?
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    heres one answer from Paul Cribb which states that it is possible ............



    Q: I've heard that creatine & glutamine taken together are not a problem. But I read on your site that since sodium is a carrier of both, we should take them at least 1-2 hrs apart. But recently I read on your Q&A section that it's ok to take them together as they don't compete for absorption. Can you clear this up for me?



    A: This is an aspect a lot of athletes are confused about, and it gives you an idea how rapid the field of sport science nutrition is advancing. About 4 years ago Paul Delia advised that because both glutamine and creatine are driven into muscle cells by sodium dependant (Na+) transfer, it would be best to consume each supplement independent of each other. Sodium is one element used to power a pump-like mechanism that "drives" nutrients into cells, the other element that works with sodium is potassium (K+). This mechanism of transport scientists call the "sodium-potassium pump".

    Paul's recommendation made sense. Taken separately, each nutrient would have an optimal chance of being up taken by muscle cells and this would maximize their affect on muscle growth. At this time, the fact that some one was even considering how to maximize the uptake and cellular transportation of these sport supplements was revolutionary. I guarantee you no one in sport science was even considering these aspects. It shows you how far head Paul is from the competition in the sports supplement industry.

    However, just last year, a number of reports were published that confirmed specific creatine and glutamine transporter receptors had been isolated. These studies demonstrated that on the outer layer of the cell (the cell membrane), existed highly specific "entrance sites" or transporters for both creatine and glutamine. Yet both transporters work against concentration gradients, therefore they are powered by the sodium-potassium "pump".

    This information was a big break through. It provided a greater understanding of how to manipulate supplementation to optimize muscle growth. It appears that because both creatine and glutamine possess such different, highly specific transportation entrances into muscles, there is no fear of one of these nutients inhibiting the uptake of the other.

    In fact, I suspect if taken at around the same time, these nutrients will form a powerful "cell volumizing" effect. Increasing the muscle cell content of these nutrients actually draws water inside the cell, increasing its volume. Research shows this volumizing effect is a powerful trigger of muscle protein synthesis (anabolism).

    Some of our readers have been confused regarding our recommendations on the supplementation of creatine and glutamine. Although recommendations appear "conflicting", it is merely a case of constantly updating information on the latest in cutting edge sports nutrition. This is what AST specializes in and we make no apologies for staying right on top of sports science research and providing it to you as it happens.
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    and heres one from Paul Delia that sez theres really no studies saying it does or doesnt, so as i sed, i guess no1 really knows..................


    Q: I read one of your articles on your web site which explains that you should never take creatine and glutamine together because they compete for absorption. However, I asked other companies about it and they basically said that it is a complete false statement and that you can take them together all day long. I think that you should provide some scientific evidence and studies to prove your point.



    A: First off, read the article again. As you should have gathered from the article - "Creatine and Glutamine - Two of the best supplements you can take, but you need to know how!" - we have no scientific study that specifically looks at taking creatine and glutamine together. Never claimed to. We do however, have tons of data that clearly shows that creatine and glutamine use the same transporters, are both sodium dependant, and both scramble to get inside the intracellular amino acid pool. This clearly indicates a competitive nature between the two.

    When you have two things going down the same narrow path and trying to get through the same narrow doorway at the same time, you are going to have a problem. What we are telling you is it's much better to send them down the same narrow pathway and through the same narrow doorway one at a time. Please tell me what part of this confuses you.

    Other companies tell you it is a "false statement" because they probably have a voodoo product they are trying to sell that contains both creatine and glutamine together. You would be much better off asking them to provide you with studies that show creatine and glutamine work well together and that they do not compete for the same transporters. Have you done that? I can save you a little time. There are no studies confirming this. None.

    If it were only that easy to design superior products. Just throw all the "hottest" supplements in a mix together and "presto". I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it just doesn't work like that.

    Look, take whatever supplement you want to take. Believe whoever you want to believe. It's completely up to you. We provide you with tons of very valuable and, most of all, useful information here, but it's really up to you if you choose to use it.

    From what it looks like you are willing to take a supplement at face value with no questions asked if it tells you what you want to hear, but when someone refutes the promises of the supplement then, and only then, you want scientific evidence to back up the contradiction. Correct me if I wrong, but this seems a little ass-backwards to me.

    I've found that people get real emotional over the supplements they take. It's like, "How dare you tell me that the supplements I take don't work." This I have yet to figure out.
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    Thanks a ton for the helpful replys goth 666 rather then being a smart arse like some other person.
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    no problem, the guy above did make a good post about taking them with an electrolyte blend, due to the sodium and potassium pump. but ya to be 100% sure, i would take them seperately, it will only help either way.
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    What about this part of the Paul Cribb artical though?

    "It appears that because both creatine and glutamine possess such different, highly specific transportation entrances into muscles, there is no fear of one of these nutients inhibiting the uptake of the other.

    In fact, I suspect if taken at around the same time, these nutrients will form a powerful "cell volumizing" effect."

    from what is said wouldnt it be better to take both at the same time ?
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
    And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
    They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
    The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"

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    goth666 is offline
    Originally posted by Berserker-Power
    What about this part of the Paul Cribb artical though?

    "It appears that because both creatine and glutamine possess such different, highly specific transportation entrances into muscles, there is no fear of one of these nutients inhibiting the uptake of the other.

    In fact, I suspect if taken at around the same time, these nutrients will form a powerful "cell volumizing" effect."

    from what is said wouldnt it be better to take both at the same time ?
    well i dunno if he means at the same exact time, he probably does tho. jeff willet and skip la cour both bracket their workouts with 1 scoop vp2, 1 scoop creatine HSC, and 10 grams of GL3 glutamine. personally i dont take them together just so there is no confusion. but what i think paul means is like, take ur whey and creatine postworkout, then take a 5-10 gram does of glutamine about a half hour later, or something along the lines of that, being that post workout is a chance for increased nutrient uptake.

    when im on creatine, i take 1 scoop vp2 and one scoop creatine with 35 grams of DGC pre/post workout.

    when im cycling off creatine i do the same thing only with 5-10 grams of glutamine.
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    i forgot to mention, pre-workout i take 15 grams of DGC, not 35. i only take 35 post workout.
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    Registered User Valorien's Avatar
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    They do work together, but...

    Glutamine and Creatine are great together, but if you're taking any Nitric Oxide (NO) product, you are wasting your money BIG TIME. Please refer to the following article off PubMed.com:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=9103529

    If you have trouble accessing the link, go to PubMed.com and copy and paste the following in the search bar:

    J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1997 Apr;281(1):448-53.
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    Thumbs down

    if ur taking any NO product ur wasting ur money neways
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    when im cycling off creatine i do the same thing only with 5-10 grams of glutamine. [/B][/QUOTE]
    I remember reading somewhere that carbs and Protein compeat with glutamine, I've been taking them seprate what do you think?
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    ya ive heard that 2, this should hopefully clear it up. ill post more if i find anything.



    Q: If the body is ravenous in its need for L-Glutamine then why does it compete poorly for absorption in the presence of other amino acids and protein such as VP2?



    A: A while ago I documented literature that demonstrated glutamine did not appear to be absorbed effectively when ingested with other amino acids. The scientists behind this research commented "free form glutamine appears to compete poorly with other amino acids for intestinal absorption" (Keohane PP, et al. Gut.26:907-913. 1985; Grimble GK et al. Clin.Sci.71:65-69, 1986).

    Based on this, I cautioned athletes to ensure they obtain the most from their GL3 L-Glutamine supplement by consuming their serving 15-minutes before a protein meal.

    This research is in fact 15 years old and I now suspect due to the inferior tracer techniques used to "follow" amino acids back then, the scientists could not accurately take into account the splenic extraction of glutamine from the intestinal tract. This may have produced a "false" reading in terms of what was happening to the glutamine.

    More recent work has demonstrated that when glutamine is taken with other proteins such as VP2 Whey Isolate, a greater improvement in cellular anabolism occurs. This research was performed on rats, so it's results need to be interpreted with caution. However, so far all current research points toward the fact glutamine absorption is not affected by other proteins. Therefore, based on the limited research available on the subject, it seems okay to take free form glutamine supplements such as GL3 with other proteins.

    AST will always provide you with the most accurate information available, so I'll continue to keep a close eye on the research on this subject.
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    also, no, carbs do not compete with nething. actually when carbs are added to glutamine, whole body glycogen levels are increased better then with glutamine or carbs alone. carbs MAY also help the glutamine get into the bloodstream better.
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for the info, I used to take aminos and glut right after I finish my last set then cool down then mix a shake. Now I will up the glut and cut the other aminos. Thanks AST.
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    Looks like ill take Syntrax Nitrous off my supplement list while using glutamine then Dammit i really wanted to try it

    I think ill just take the creatine and glutamine as they suggest you normally take them, no ones really sure what it does and Paul Cribb thinks they actually work better if taken together, so ill give it a shot and let you know
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
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    What do u guys think, Syntrax Nitrous or Glutamine :\
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
    And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
    They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
    The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"

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    glutamine, nitrous and any other NO product is crap, even if u do get a better pump, big deal. why shell out that much cash to get a good pump? why not shell out cash for scientifically proven supplements that ACTUALLY build muscle. (im not flaming u by the way) heres a few research articles on NO supplements and such...............


    Nitric Oxide Supplements- Big Claims - Zero Science: NO 2 ways about it.

    by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
    AST Director of Research

    Supplements that reportedly increase nitric oxide levels within the body are currently being marketed as powerful muscle builders. The marketers of these supplements claim they increase nitric oxide levels within muscle tissue and a dramatic increase in muscle size, strength is experienced. Other claims also include an increase in fast-twitch muscle fiber strength, endurance, power output, and load capacity from taking these supplements. These reported benefits are quite specific, so I decided to scan the literature for the scientific evidence that supports these claims.

    Nitric Oxide – what is it?

    Nitric oxide is a colorless, free radical gas commonly found in tissues of all mammals (it’s also prepared commercially by passing air through an electric arc). Biologically, nitric oxide has been shown to be an important neuro-messenger in a number of vertebrate signal transduction processes. Nitric oxide is used in medical treatment; for example, nitroglycerin ameliorates the pain of angina by supplying nitric oxide to the blood vessels that supply the heart. The popular drug Viagra controls erection by regulating nitric oxide in the penile cartilage chamber.

    The Research and the Claims

    I don’t know where the marketers obtained their literature on nitric oxide. It looks like they are using the same journals as the companies selling Myostatin inhibitors – Alice in Wonderland. Although nitric oxide acts as a cell-to-cell communicator for certain metabolic functions, muscle growth is not one of them. After a review of the available literature I cannot find any research that remotely indicates increasing nitric oxide levels plays a part in increasing protein synthesis, contractile strength or any other biochemical pathway that may lead to increases in muscle mass.

    For a company to claim their supplement increases “fast-twitch” muscle strength, the promoters must have instigated or funded some kind of research that involved biopsy procedures and histochemical analyses to extract, assesses and identify these particular muscle fibers from animals or humans, before and after supplementation. However, I could find no documentation (either on their web sites or via a literature scan) that details these findings, only the marketing claims. As far as I’m aware, there is zero scientific evidence supporting the notion that nitric oxide supplements increase “fast-twitch” muscle strength.

    There also appears to be no evidence whatsoever that shows increasing nitric oxide levels enhances endurance, power output, and load capacity.

    Arginine alpha-ketogluterate is the “active” ingredient reported by one company that sells this type of supplement. It is claimed that this compound increases and maintains a constantly high level of nitric oxide in muscle. Nitric oxide is synthesized within the body using the amino acid arginine, the energy cyclic substrate NADPH, and oxygen. Nitric oxide diffuses freely across membranes but it is a transient signaling molecule. Nitric oxide is by nature, a highly reactive gas that has an extremely short life – less than a few seconds. While there is a lot of research on the effects of nitric oxide, there is no research that shows supplementation with arginine alpha-ketogluterate increases or sustains nitric oxide levels in any human or animal organs.

    Can you imagine, a supplement that “creates dramatic increases in muscle size, strength, endurance, power output, and load capacity”, but not a single study to support these claims. Nothing new here. Unfortunately, this is typical sports nutrition marketing bull****. It's sad, misleading, and shows you just what these companies think of the intelligence level of their target market.

    When new products burst onto the market, you the consumer can cut through the advertising hype quite easily. Simply ask the supplement company making the claims to "show you the research". A reference is a start, but the actual research study is particularly what your after. You want to see the study, the protocol, the outcome and the University at which the study was conducted. In the present case, you want to see a study showing were this supplement actually increased nitric oxide above a control group, and you want to see the data that demonstrates an increase in lean muscle mass, significantly more than the group without elevated nitric oxide levels.

    The fact is, there is no science supporting any of the claims made for so-called nitric oxide supplements. There is no science showing they have any effect on nitric oxide levels and certainly no science showing in effects on muscle growth or increased performance.

    Ask yourself why there is no research to support these companies’ wild claims. The simple answer is that research is expensive, make believe products are not. Research provides evidence, fraudulent supplement marketing only delivers hype. It’s far more financially rewarding to sell hype than to produce effective supplements backed by science.

    One promoter of a nitric oxide supplement claims to have “brought creatine supplementation to the market” and that their supplement is “the perfected version of creatine”. I’m not sure which market is being referred to but creatine has been used as a supplement for over 40 years. And in NO way are nitric oxide supplements a “perfected version of creatine”. They are nothing like creatine. While creatine is backed by a wealth of research, nitric oxide supplements do not have a shred of scientific evidence that justifies their effectiveness as a bodybuilding supplements.

    Bottom line, money spent on these products is money flushed down the toilet.



    Read the Real Science
    1. Nathan C. Nitric oxide as a secretory product of mammalian cells. FASEB J 1992 6(12):3051-64.

    2. Mayer B; Hemmens B. Biosynthesis and action of nitric oxide in mammalian cells. Trends Biochem Sci 1997 22(12):477-81.

    3. Janabi N; Chabrier S; Tardieu M. Endogenous nitric oxide activates prostaglandin F2 alpha production in human microglial cells but not in astrocytes: a study of interactions between eicosanoids, nitric oxide, and superoxide anion (O2-) regulatory pathways. J Immunol 1996 1;157(5):2129-35.

    4. Esposito C; Cozzolino A; Porta R; Mariniello L; Buommino E; Morelli F; Metafora V; Metafora S. Protein SV-IV promotes nitric oxide production not associated with apoptosis in murine macrophages. Eur J Cell Biol 2002 81(4):185-96.

    5. Eckmann L; Laurent F; Langford TD; Hetsko ML; Smith JR; Kagnoff MF; Gillin FD. Nitric oxide production by human intestinal epithelial cells and competition for arginine as potential determinants of host defense against the lumen-dwelling pathogen Giardia lamblia. J Immunol 2000 1;164(3):1478-87.

    6. Kelly RA; Smith TW. Nitric oxide and nitrovasodilators: similarities, differences, and interactions. Am J Cardiol 1996 30;77(13):2C-7C.

    7. Stryer L. Biochemistry 4th Ed. Freeman & Co. 1997.
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    Research Update: Is citrulline malate the “next big thing?”

    by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
    AST Director of Research

    According to some supplement marketers, a compound called citrulline malate has “has made its way into the arena of athletic performance nutrition” and is “the next big thing”. Some of the marketing claims regarding citrulline malate include “more endurance during grueling training sessions” and “much better pumps in the gym and in between the cheeks”.

    This might sound promising if you work as towel boy at gym in San Francisco or Hillcrest in San Diego, but what this has to do with building muscle, I’m not so sure. Other marketing claims regarding supplementation with citrulline malate include “more energy to train better and harder and recover faster from training”. Aside from the anecdotal feedback provided, the marketers also use scientific research to "validate" these claims.

    So, exactly what is citrulline malate? How might this compound benefit athletes, and does the scientific evidence support the marketing claims?

    What is citrulline malate?

    Citrulline malate is a mixture of citrulline; which is a substrate involved in the urea cycle, and malate; a tricarboxylic acid cycle intermediate (the aerobic energy production cycle). Therefore, theoretically citrulline malate may potentially work to reduce ammonia and lactate accumulation in muscle during exercise as well as provide a substrate for the aerobic energy production pathway.

    Very few studies on Citrulline malate have been published in English in the more established science journals. Of the few studies that have, probably the strongest case for citrulline malate as a performance-enhancer for athletes comes from a study on muscle fatigue induced by bacterial endotoxins. Using a rat model, this study showed that mechanical characteristics, that is, resistance to fatigue improved after treatment with citrulline malate. The results are interesting but hardly applicable to athletes training in the gym.

    Supplementation with citrulline malate has also been prescribed for the treatment of some types of chronic muscle weakness (asthenia) but the results are far from conclusive.

    Separating the facts from the fiction.

    Some supplement companies are riding on the back of restored consumer faith in effective, naturally occurring supplements such as creatine. A rather out-dated ploy by marketers is to identify one particular substrate or enzyme within human biochemical energy production pathway, detail its importance for energy production (complete with scientific references) and then promote the compound as a sports supplement that will provide an array of benefits.

    However, human biochemistry is complex and quite often what sounds really positive from a theoretical perspective, doesn’t hold up in applied science research. Pyruvate, ribose and Co-Q 10 supplements are all are clear examples of this. Do you remember these supplements?

    Each one now "Rests-In-Peace" (along with many others) on the junk-pile of “science-based” supplements that failed to deliver results. With a barrage of savvy biochemical marketing spin, each one of these compounds was touted “the next big thing” but when it came to delivering real results in applied research, each one failed dismally. (Although they aren’t energy precursors, you can throw methoxy’ and myostatin-blocking supplements in there as well! The companies that ripped you off with these worthless products are still at it.)

    One study has examined the effects of supplementation with citrulline malate on muscle energy production during exercise.[1] This study is often used by the promoters of citrulline malate to validate marketing claims. In this research, metabolic changes in energy production were assessed before and during supplementation with citrulline malate. This study showed that supplementation resulted in a 34% increase in the rate of oxidative ATP production during exercise, and a 20% increase in the rate of phosphocreatine recovery after exercise, indicating a larger contribution of oxidative ATP synthesis to energy production. These are all positive findings that suggest citrulline malate may enhance aerobic energy production (which incidently, has nothing to do with enhancing muscle growth). The results are interesting. However, when presenting this data in their sales pitch, the marketers of citrulline malate neglect to inform consumers of the study’s limitations.


    • The study on citrulline malate supplementation was not blinded (to prevent bias).

    • Nor was a placebo treatment utilized (something to directly compare results to).

    • This study was performed on sedentary (inactive) men that “complained of fatigue” (no explanation of what this means was provided).

    • To assess muscle performance and energy production, similar studies have used exercises such as biceps flexion or plantar flexion (calf press)—these exercises have greater relevance to athletes. However, the citrulline malate study assessed “muscle performance” using finger flexion as exercise.
    So basically, the “scientific research” used to sell citrulline malate to athletes as “the next big thing” is a “trial” (not a tightly controlled study) on tired, inactive men that performed finger exercises before and after supplementation. This is the research that is being manipulated to market citrulline malate as “the supplement that will redefine human athletic performance.” It just goes to show, you can’t believe every advertisement you read simply because it has scientific references attached.

    The points I make are meant not to be disrespectful to the scientists involved in important this research. The points I make are only meant to highlight the unscrupulous nature in which this supplement is being sold to athletes. As a sports scientist and an athlete, it is a passion of mine to discover and learn about potentially effective, new compounds that may enhance muscle growth and/or athletic performance. I don’t particularly care who or what company may bring a useful supplement on the market. If the supplement looks promising, that’s one thing, but when scientific research is used as a marketing tool to mislead consumers about the potential benefits of a product; that’s deceitful and illegal.

    Citrulline malate does have a certain amount of potential to enhance aerobic performance but this is yet to be confirmed in applied research by any means. The implication that citrulline malate may enhance muscle gains is a long stretch into fantasy land. No research suggests this compound may (even remotely) enhance contractile strength, muscle growth or fat metabolism. So be wary of anyone that tries to tell you otherwise.

    If you have the expendable cash and you’re the kind of person that just has to try all the new stuff (like pyruvate, ribose and myostatin-blockers when they came out) then you’ll probably give citrulline malate a whirl. But be ready to dig deep into your wallet, this stuff will be expensive.

    Logic begs me to suggest one important point to athletes that want to gain that elusive edge that will take their performance to the next level. Why blow your cash on a highly speculative (and expensive) compound that is deliberately being dishonestly marketed? Particularly when there is so much applied research on supplements such as Micronized Creatine and VP2 Whey Isolate that has involved bodybuilders and demonstrated how effective these supplements are for building muscle, improving body composition and enhancing athletic performance.

    References:

    1. Bendahan D, Mattei JP, Ghattas B, Confort-Gouny S, Le Guern ME, Cozzone PJ. Br J Sports Med. 2002 Aug;36(4):282-9. Citrulline/malate promotes aerobic energy production in human exercising muscle.
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  22. #22
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    Guess you have a good point... Im more interested in pure strength and size then showing off my muscles, glutamine is a better choice
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    Just drop the glutamine entirely. Your money is better spent on BCAA's, or extra protein. An even better investment would be Taurine or R-ALA. R-ala will give you all the benefits that glutamine claims to.

    Nitrous has gotten great reviews on many forums, not for building muscle but for giving great pumps.

    Goth666, I sincerely hope you don't take everything Paul Crib says as gospel.
    Don't Support Companies that are suing me!!

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    "Supplement your weakness"
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    Talking

    Originally posted by Lonny
    Just drop the glutamine entirely. Your money is better spent on BCAA's, or extra protein. An even better investment would be Taurine or R-ALA. R-ala will give you all the benefits that glutamine claims to.

    Nitrous has gotten great reviews on many forums, not for building muscle but for giving great pumps.

    Goth666, I sincerely hope you don't take everything Paul Crib says as gospel.
    there is no need to drop glutamine, read up on it and ull see why. i do agree with the taurine and r-ala. but glutamine and r-ala both have different benefits as well. yes nitrous has gotten great reviews, but paying money for a better pump is just rediculous. why not buy creatine and build muscle, AND get a better pump. makes more sense to me.

    Lonny, i hope u dont take everything syntrax claims about nitrous as gospel.
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    Everything i have read about glutamine says that its absolutly awesome same effectivness as creatine and very benifical in many ways
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    i dunno about the same effectiveness as creatine, maybe what u read meant the fact that they both work to increase muscle cell volume and muscle cell hydration. glutamine plays a very beneficial role, both in building muscle, losing fat, and even maintaining muscle while losing fat. most ppl will tell u to skip glutamine unless ur "cutting", but thats bull-poopy. skipping glutamine at any time will only hinder results.
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    im skipping the nitrous and going for the glutamine for sure now
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
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    Thumbs up

    good choice. i myself admit that nitrous does sound tempting due to the "promises" of increased pumps and vascularity, but its not worth it when u can actually build muscle, hence enhancing vascularity neways. besides, would u rather pay 30$ for a better pump?(nitrous).............or about 24$ for a better pump, along with a host of other muscle building qualities?(creatine,glutamine)
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    Yeah im going to stick with Creatine, Glutamine and Protein powders
    "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
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    They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
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    if u have any money left over from that, i recommend also getting a good MRP and R-ALA. either one or both.
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