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  1. #91
    Registered User grebnehtor's Avatar
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    Crusher - maybe you can get your doctor to post on this particular forum. Then we could have somewhat a professional foundation for the things we say. I am not saying that it's incorrect, but to have a leader state it would be worth alot.
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    Guys, since we're discussing anatomy of the AC Joint, I found this amazing picture that really helps depict the joint in a better way:



    In our surgery, the end of the clavicle, as seen in the picture, was removed. Now we just need the ligaments around that joint to heal and the bone structure itself to heal. Inside that joint ligament sack, or whatever you call it, scar tissue will form, creating another joint. This takes time, lol.
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    Bursa

    I am also of the opinion that it doesn't grow back, but the scar tissue serves as cushion. Crusher, I still think you are jumping the gun a little bit. I was able to go back to martial arts (judo, more specifically) within a little while. My boxing workouts at the time weren't too bad, I think the most uncomfortable were hooks. They caused the most rubbing. Again, it isn't the impact that will bother you the most provided you maintain a proper distance from the bag. It will definitely feel sore at first, but sore doesn't mean something is wrong. The last thing you want to do is miss, however. It requires more muscle and ligament strength to slow the arm down without impact. If you feel like you have to hit the bag, exercise control and some restraint.
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  4. #94
    Registered User Crusher80's Avatar
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    So, are you saying I WILL or WILL NOT be able to compete in amateur boxing again one day?

    Also, what do you fellas think of my 3 questions:

    1) During my distal clavicle resection 4 weeks ago my doc removed my bursa. My doc said that the bursa grows back. However, dbrunner00 said the bursa doesn't grow back and scar tissue fills where the bursa was. What is the real story with this? Does the bursa grow back? And if it does, is it grown back by now (at 4 weeks post op)? If not now, how long until it grows back? If dbrunner00 is right (that scar tissue replaces the bursa), will the scar tissue do just as a good job as the bursa?

    2) In 4-6 weeks I will start doing my rotator cuff/scapular training exercises. Is there any exercises I can do that specifically target the AC joint area so that I can strengthen the scar tissue that will be formed where the excised AC joint was? Is their any way to strengthen that area so I can firm up the scar tissue?

    3) For the next 4-6 weeks I will completely baby the arm. I will no longer do anything foolish. I will not get into scuffles or pick up dumbells or throw any punches. I will ice the shoulder many times throughout the day and I will continue to take Motrin during this time. I'm hoping by doing this that this will enable all the post surgery inflammation to subside, the bone to heal, the bursa to grow back healthy, and for scar tissue to lay down and firm up where the excised AC joint was. In your professional opinion, if I do this for the next 4-6 weeks, will I than be able to start my rotator cuff/scapular training exercises training exercises relatively PAIN FREE? Is there a chance if I do this for the next 4-6 weeks that alot of my discomfort will be down and alot of healing will have happened?

    grebnehtor, I asked my doc about the clicking and he said it's probably just the scar tissue that is forming where the excised AC joint was. He said that should go away with time.
    Last edited by Crusher80; 06-04-2007 at 12:36 PM.
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  5. #95
    Registered User BigJohn308's Avatar
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    I played football from 4 years old till first spring of college, played "sandlot" football all that time, wrestled, raced motocross from 5-12, worked construction, shod and broke horses, lifted weights from 18-41, and have been a competitive powerlifter for the past four years.

    I have suffered quite a few injuries and known others who have as well, BUT have NEVER seen so many cases of shoulder surgeries as this thread has shown. Something many of you need to realize is that doctors are ALWAYS WILLING to perform surgeries. There is a lot of money in sugery.

    Alot of the nagging injuries that some of you get surgeries for mainly require rest and attention to form and capabilities. Also, some pains just have to be overlooked and gotten used to. I have had many things happen that I HAD to work through and some things that I realized if I like the sport I have to just DEAL with it. Talk to some professional athletes and see what they deal with as a normal course of a day. It will blow your minds what kind of pain many people live with and finally just disregard because the mind overcomes it.

    Always bear in mind that doctors love to perform surgeries.

    Crusher80....man it seems that you are intent on believing that you have "permanently" damaged yourself. Quit focusing on it. It takes time and it's gonna take some teeth-gritting and powering through some things and teh knowledge of when to just take it easy. Listening to the body is the hardest thing to do sometimes. Good luck.
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  6. #96
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    Originally Posted by BigJohn308 View Post
    I played football from 4 years old till first spring of college, played "sandlot" football all that time, wrestled, raced motocross from 5-12, worked construction, shod and broke horses, lifted weights from 18-41, and have been a competitive powerlifter for the past four years.

    I have suffered quite a few injuries and known others who have as well, BUT have NEVER seen so many cases of shoulder surgeries as this thread has shown. Something many of you need to realize is that doctors are ALWAYS WILLING to perform surgeries. There is a lot of money in sugery.

    Alot of the nagging injuries that some of you get surgeries for mainly require rest and attention to form and capabilities.
    Always bear in mind that doctors love to perform surgeries.

    Crusher80....man it seems that you are intent on believing that you have "permanently" damaged yourself. Quit focusing on it. It takes time and it's gonna take some teeth-gritting and powering through some things and teh knowledge of when to just take it easy. Listening to the body is the hardest thing to do sometimes. Good luck.
    ^^^^^
    This I completely agree with and consider it rep worthy...

    However...


    Originally Posted by BigJohn308 View Post

    ...Also, some pains just have to be overlooked and gotten used to. I have had many things happen that I HAD to work through and some things that I realized if I like the sport I have to just DEAL with it. Talk to some professional athletes and see what they deal with as a normal course of a day. It will blow your minds what kind of pain many people live with and finally just disregard because the mind overcomes it.
    ^^^^^


    This I consider to be Negligent advice... (No Offense.)

    For one... No one here, short of you is a Professional athlete... Maybe some are aspiring etc... But unless there's a dollar amount invested in the process... This is First and foremost going to be about quality of life... And "Living with Pain." Is no where on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

    *****

    As someone who's played sports at a Semi-Pro level, who's seen a fair share of injuries, I personally strongly encourage all of you to take any painful occurance as a serious matter...

    And before you make ANY DECISION to "Live With It" You first consult MULTIPLE doctors, and make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you understand 100% why you're going to make the conscious choice to live with a pain that may have LIFE LONG circumstances.

    ****

    While on the one hand it's important to buck up during an injury phase, it's also equally important to temper that pro-active drive with body knowledge, wisdom and the foresight to live a long healthy life.
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  7. #97
    Phoenix Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crusher80 View Post
    So, are you saying I WILL or WILL NOT be able to compete in amateur boxing again one day?

    Also, what do you fellas think of my 3 questions:

    1) During my distal clavicle resection 4 weeks ago my doc removed my bursa. My doc said that the bursa grows back. However, dbrunner00 said the bursa doesn't grow back and scar tissue fills where the bursa was. What is the real story with this? Does the bursa grow back? And if it does, is it grown back by now (at 4 weeks post op)? If not now, how long until it grows back? If dbrunner00 is right (that scar tissue replaces the bursa), will the scar tissue do just as a good job as the bursa?

    2) In 4-6 weeks I will start doing my rotator cuff/scapular training exercises. Is there any exercises I can do that specifically target the AC joint area so that I can strengthen the scar tissue that will be formed where the excised AC joint was? Is their any way to strengthen that area so I can firm up the scar tissue?

    3) For the next 4-6 weeks I will completely baby the arm. I will no longer do anything foolish. I will not get into scuffles or pick up dumbells or throw any punches. I will ice the shoulder many times throughout the day and I will continue to take Motrin during this time. I'm hoping by doing this that this will enable all the post surgery inflammation to subside, the bone to heal, the bursa to grow back healthy, and for scar tissue to lay down and firm up where the excised AC joint was. In your professional opinion, if I do this for the next 4-6 weeks, will I than be able to start my rotator cuff/scapular training exercises training exercises relatively PAIN FREE? Is there a chance if I do this for the next 4-6 weeks that alot of my discomfort will be down and alot of healing will have happened?

    grebnehtor, I asked my doc about the clicking and he said it's probably just the scar tissue that is forming where the excised AC joint was. He said that should go away with time.
    1. As I understand it, once removed the Bursa is gone for good... However the Fibrous scar tissue that replaces it should be just as good... If not better. (I could be wrong about this.) But either way, as I understand it you should be okay.

    2. Just do what your doc/physio/PT tells you to do...

    The only thing I would note... Is that ONLY ONCE YOU HAVE FULLY RETURNED TO 100% and have been cleared to go back into the weight room, MANY WEEKS FROM NOW... That one armed DB Bent rows, done with form tighter than a Nun's Choochie and slower than an episode of reading rainbow hosted by Forrest Gump... Will help you build scapular stability.


    3. No one can give you a time table answer that you can count on, except your doc/other specialist...

    Just be patient and treat the shoulder well, and that time table will be shorter than if you return to wrecklessness.
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  8. #98
    Registered User Crusher80's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BigJohn308 View Post
    I have suffered quite a few injuries and known others who have as well, BUT have NEVER seen so many cases of shoulder surgeries as this thread has shown. Something many of you need to realize is that doctors are ALWAYS WILLING to perform surgeries. There is a lot of money in sugery.

    Alot of the nagging injuries that some of you get surgeries for mainly require rest and attention to form and capabilities. Also, some pains just have to be overlooked and gotten used to. I have had many things happen that I HAD to work through and some things that I realized if I like the sport I have to just DEAL with it. Talk to some professional athletes and see what they deal with as a normal course of a day. It will blow your minds what kind of pain many people live with and finally just disregard because the mind overcomes it.

    Always bear in mind that doctors love to perform surgeries.
    I agree...yet disagree with your post.

    You're right, doctors make money when they do surgeries. The more they do, the more they make. So obviously it's in their financial best interest to do surgeries. However, if a doctor isn't going to do a surgery on you, he's gonna do it on someone who needs it. The point I'm trying to make is, doctors are going to do surgeries and make money no matter what. There are plenty of people who NEED the surgeries done and the doctors are busy enough working on them. They don't need to do surgeries on people who don't need it to make money. They make enough money, trust me.

    As to your other point. I had very serious injuries the last year and a half. I've had surgeries for an umbilical hernia and a torn pectoral tendon. I also had an acromioplasty and a distal clavicle resection. ALL of those surgeries I needed. I got second and even third opinions from doctors before I went under the knife for each of them. So I just didn't jump into having surgery. If I was just some couch potato who sat on his rear end and never worked out, I would've just took the pain and never had the surgeries I did. But, I am not a couch potato. I lift weights, run, occasionally wrestle, and I used to amateur box. Not to mention, I work a job where I have to be able to restrain and fight people. So, if I never had those surgeries, I would have never been able to even THINK about doing those activities again.

    As much as I respect your 'it's just a strain-suck it up-no pain-no gain attitude', there comes a point when you have to be intelligent enough to know the difference between being hurt...and being injured. I was injured and based on what I've read in this thread, these fellas were injured as well. I agree with you that some aches and pains you just have to live with. But there's a difference between a sprained ankle and a completley torn pecotral tendon. Big difference.

    Also, you made mention of the pain that pro athletes have to live with each day. Have you ever read the sports page? How many times do you see 'so-and-so is going to be out for x-amount of months with such-and-such surgery'? Pro athletes get surgeries more than anybody. Why? Not because they're hurt. Because they're injured.

    When I first got injured, I had to check my ego at the door and say 'I'm injured, I need surgery, it's gonna be long recovery and rehab, hopefully I'll come out of this OK.'

    I'm not a stupid person. I know I will never be physically what I was. The shoulder will never be the same. But maybe with proper healing and rehab I will one day be able to perform and enjoy those activities I love again.
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  9. #99
    Registered User BigJohn308's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    ^^^^^
    This I completely agree with and consider it rep worthy...

    However...




    ^^^^^


    This I consider to be Negligent advice... (No Offense.)

    For one... No one here, short of you is a Professional athlete... Maybe some are aspiring etc... But unless there's a dollar amount invested in the process... This is First and foremost going to be about quality of life... And "Living with Pain." Is no where on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

    *****

    As someone who's played sports at a Semi-Pro level, who's seen a fair share of injuries, I personally strongly encourage all of you to take any painful occurance as a serious matter...

    And before you make ANY DECISION to "Live With It" You first consult MULTIPLE doctors, and make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you understand 100% why you're going to make the conscious choice to live with a pain that may have LIFE LONG circumstances.

    ****

    While on the one hand it's important to buck up during an injury phase, it's also equally important to temper that pro-active drive with body knowledge, wisdom and the foresight to live a long healthy life.
    No offense taken...I thought my statement about "listening to the body" covered the "just power through any injury" idea. I would ever suggest not seeking medical advice, however, as you know when we decide to do things above and beyond what "normal" folks do we have to live with certain aches and pains.

    I am far from a "pro", I am just a competitor. As far as "quality of life" as it relates to some pain, I agree. The main thing is teh level of pain versus what we want to do. Life is a spectrum. We find a balance that suits us. I could definetly remain absolutely pain free if I chose to not do some of the things that I do (of all the things I did earlier in life, oh well, too late for that HAHA), but I choose to do certain things that require me to overlook soem aches and pains. I take Naprosyn daily to help with the inflammation brought about by a "rough/active" life.

    Over the course of my life I have learned to listen to my body well. I know when to go to the doctor, when to ease up, and when to just ice take a naprosyn and move on.

    Again, I stated that "listening to the body" was important.
    Last edited by BigJohn308; 06-04-2007 at 07:37 PM.
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  10. #100
    Registered User BigJohn308's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crusher80 View Post
    I agree...yet disagree with your post.

    You're right, doctors make money when they do surgeries. The more they do, the more they make. So obviously it's in their financial best interest to do surgeries. However, if a doctor isn't going to do a surgery on you, he's gonna do it on someone who needs it. The point I'm trying to make is, doctors are going to do surgeries and make money no matter what. There are plenty of people who NEED the surgeries done and the doctors are busy enough working on them. They don't need to do surgeries on people who don't need it to make money. They make enough money, trust me.

    As to your other point. I had very serious injuries the last year and a half. I've had surgeries for an umbilical hernia and a torn pectoral tendon. I also had an acromioplasty and a distal clavicle resection. ALL of those surgeries I needed. I got second and even third opinions from doctors before I went under the knife for each of them. So I just didn't jump into having surgery. If I was just some couch potato who sat on his rear end and never worked out, I would've just took the pain and never had the surgeries I did. But, I am not a couch potato. I lift weights, run, occasionally wrestle, and I used to amateur box. Not to mention, I work a job where I have to be able to restrain and fight people. So, if I never had those surgeries, I would have never been able to even THINK about doing those activities again.

    As much as I respect your 'it's just a strain-suck it up-no pain-no gain attitude', there comes a point when you have to be intelligent enough to know the difference between being hurt...and being injured. I was injured and based on what I've read in this thread, these fellas were injured as well. I agree with you that some aches and pains you just have to live with. But there's a difference between a sprained ankle and a completley torn pecotral tendon. Big difference.

    Also, you made mention of the pain that pro athletes have to live with each day. Have you ever read the sports page? How many times do you see 'so-and-so is going to be out for x-amount of months with such-and-such surgery'? Pro athletes get surgeries more than anybody. Why? Not because they're hurt. Because they're injured.

    When I first got injured, I had to check my ego at the door and say 'I'm injured, I need surgery, it's gonna be long recovery and rehab, hopefully I'll come out of this OK.'

    I'm not a stupid person. I know I will never be physically what I was. The shoulder will never be the same. But maybe with proper healing and rehab I will one day be able to perform and enjoy those activities I love again.

    Apparently you skipped over my point of listening to your body as being very important

    I assure you doctors do many many surgeries that are not necessary. If you do not believe that, well thats your perogative.

    I wish you luck with your recovery.
    Last edited by BigJohn308; 06-04-2007 at 07:50 PM.
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  11. #101
    Registered User grebnehtor's Avatar
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    "First Do No Harm"

    Originally Posted by BigJohn308 View Post
    I played football from 4 years old till first spring of college, played "sandlot" football all that time, wrestled, raced motocross from 5-12, worked construction, shod and broke horses, lifted weights from 18-41, and have been a competitive powerlifter for the past four years.

    I have suffered quite a few injuries and known others who have as well, BUT have NEVER seen so many cases of shoulder surgeries as this thread has shown. Something many of you need to realize is that doctors are ALWAYS WILLING to perform surgeries. There is a lot of money in sugery.

    Alot of the nagging injuries that some of you get surgeries for mainly require rest and attention to form and capabilities. Also, some pains just have to be overlooked and gotten used to. I have had many things happen that I HAD to work through and some things that I realized if I like the sport I have to just DEAL with it. Talk to some professional athletes and see what they deal with as a normal course of a day. It will blow your minds what kind of pain many people live with and finally just disregard because the mind overcomes it.

    Always bear in mind that doctors love to perform surgeries.

    Crusher80....man it seems that you are intent on believing that you have "permanently" damaged yourself. Quit focusing on it. It takes time and it's gonna take some teeth-gritting and powering through some things and teh knowledge of when to just take it easy. Listening to the body is the hardest thing to do sometimes. Good luck.
    I agree with you.

    Doctors love to perform surgeries, but not out of context. They will first use conservative treatment then go towards surgical treatment. Something they call the Hamorobic Code "First Do No Harm." My doctor wouldn't perform surgery unless two months had passed between my initial complaining visit and a follow up cortisone shot. They will preform surgery at your discression.

    I am a water sports person, not a football player. My sport requires me to have the most adapt joints and tendons possible so I can preform 100%. Because of the pain I had for 1 year, the pain that I endured time, time, and time again, I got this surgery. I can't just use "brute" force to knock people over and win, or use my leg strength to explode off a field, I need to have the healthiest shoulders possible. I need to, at a moments notice, adapt my entire body's muscular structure to glide across a pool, at the same time, have enough strength to hold off people grabbing and pushing my body throughout the course of the game. My AC Joint hindered this, and in order to play, I needed surgery. This is why I had surgery.
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  12. #102
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    Crusher's Future

    Noone can tell you the limitations, if any, you will face in the future. All you can do now is everything possible to recover fully. Set some small goals and work to achieve them. It will take several months to know anything. Listen to your doctor and PT.
    It almost seems as though you want us to give you bad news. We keep giving you the positives and you focus on the negative. Take a positive outlook on things, the success of your recovery may depend on it. You may want to take the first step and convince yourself that you will recover and be able to do all the activities you did before. Once you believe in yourself, the rest gets easier. You wouldn't have stepped in the ring before thinking that you were going to lose, would you? This may all sound a little corny, but maybe it needs to be said. It sounds like you have had a few injuries, a lot of us have. No reason to be in such a state of despair.
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  13. #103
    Registered User Crusher80's Avatar
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    I hope your right Icamino. I miss weightlifting and boxing more than you know.

    I would like to find out if the bursa does indeed grow back or if scar tissue replaces it. I will be researching like a mdadman and I will also ask my doctor again. I would like to ask you guys a favor. Can you guys help me find this out? i'm sure if we all do a little research and ask our docs, than we can find the true answer.

    Thanks fellas.
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  14. #104
    OG of Saginaw, MISChigan lil_how_how's Avatar
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    I've checked numerous forums and the common consensus is that the bursa does indeed actually grow back. Whether that's completely true or not I'm not 100% sure on, but I suspect that it does.
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  15. #105
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    I have full range of motion and I think my popping sounds are going away. When I go back to weightlifting, I know the sounds should finally dissipate. Every morning my shoulder is sore less and less, however the soreness is still there. Today marks the three and a half week mark since my surgery, and honestly, I can't wait to get back to lifting, I am itching so bad. I have been using the elastic band to do strengthening exercises too, and I think that helps build that muscle torn by the cannula needles used during my arthoscopy.

    As for Crusher's problem, I have surched numerous doctor websites and they mention that the bursa does grow back. I believe the bursa is a fluid sack between the subacromium and rotator cuff. Good luck with finding more concrete info and recovery.

    How is your shoulder feeling these days Crusher?
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    Originally Posted by grebnehtor View Post
    I have full range of motion and I think my popping sounds are going away. When I go back to weightlifting, I know the sounds should finally dissipate. Every morning my shoulder is sore less and less, however the soreness is still there. Today marks the three and a half week mark since my surgery, and honestly, I can't wait to get back to lifting, I am itching so bad. I have been using the elastic band to do strengthening exercises too, and I think that helps build that muscle torn by the cannula needles used during my arthoscopy.

    As for Crusher's problem, I have surched numerous doctor websites and they mention that the bursa does grow back. I believe the bursa is a fluid sack between the subacromium and rotator cuff. Good luck with finding more concrete info and recovery.

    How is your shoulder feeling these days Crusher?
    Nice... Sounds like you're healing nicely, and your inflamation is going down!

    ****
    Have you had any time with a PT to discuss the long term game plan for your return to 100%... Or is that still too early in your doc's recovery plan?
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  17. #107
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Sorry, Been

    Sorry for bailing out, folks. I've been in Alaska for the last few days.

    OK Crusher, in order.

    1) My Doctor told me that the Bursa does not grow back. It's been removed, not damaged. Scar tissue will fill the void and serve the same function. There may be a misunderstanding on this one. I can't seem to find anything definitive on the WEB, either. I'm not a doctor, so I'll pass on giving a definitive answer.

    2) I don't know of any specific set of exercises that can target the area. At least not until it's healed. At that time, you can get into various front delt moves that will build up the mass in that area. I don't know if it will build up the scar tissue, but lifting normally causes tendons and ligaments to thicken.

    3) Good Plan. Be a wimp for awhile. Let it heal. It will take longer than 6 weeks, though. As far as "Pain Free", that's a matter of definition. Will moving it bring you to your knees intears? No, probably not. Will it hurt? Yep. You're stretching scar tissue. It's normally not very flexible. There will some pain and discomfort. If it's of any help, I considered the pain rather minor. It was beyond simple joint or muscle stiffness and it did hurt like Hell. But, if you take your time and stretch though it, it's easily manageable.

    Keep the Ice Pack ready. You're going to need it.

    Good Luck. Have Patience. I Bench Pressed 205, today. Up from 185 last week. And, I was throwing a pair of 60lb Dumbbelss on an Inclined Press, 3X10. No Pain.
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  18. #108
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Wink Sorry, been out of town.

    Sorry for bailing out, folks. I've been in Alaska for the last few days.

    OK Crusher, in order.

    1) My Doctor told me that the Bursa does not grow back. It's been removed, not damaged. Scar tissue will fill the void and serve the same function. There may be a misunderstanding on this one. I can't seem to find anything definitive on the WEB, either. I'm not a doctor, so I'll pass on giving a definitive answer. All I can really tell you is that my shoulder feels great.

    2) I don't know of any specific set of exercises that can target the area. At least not until it's healed. At that time, you can get into various front delt moves that will build up the mass in that area. I don't know if it will build up the scar tissue, but lifting normally causes tendons and ligaments to thicken.

    3) Good Plan. Be a wimp for awhile. Let it heal. It will take longer than 6 weeks, though. As far as "Pain Free", that's a matter of definition. Will moving it bring you to your knees in tears? No, probably not. Will it hurt? Yep. You're stretching scar tissue. It's normally not very flexible. There will some pain and discomfort. If it's of any help, I considered the pain rather minor. It was beyond simple joint or muscle stiffness and it did hurt like Hell. But, if you take your time and stretch though it, it's easily manageable.

    Keep the Ice Pack ready. You're going to need it. You might want to consider using the larger one that I mentioned earlier. It seems to work better, as well as faster.

    Good Luck. Have Patience. I Bench Pressed 205, today. Up from 185 last week. And, I was throwing a pair of 60lb Dumbbells on an Inclined Press, 3X10. No Pain.
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  19. #109
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    Good for you db

    Amazingly, the incline has been my best friend since the surgery. Maybe a bit psychological, but have never really felt the most comfortable piling the pounds on the flat bench. Dumbells always allowed me to find my own way and arc. Just a thought db.
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  20. #110
    Registered User Crusher80's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dbrunner00 View Post
    Good Plan. Be a wimp for awhile. Let it heal. It will take longer than 6 weeks, though. As far as "Pain Free", that's a matter of definition. Will moving it bring you to your knees in tears? No, probably not. Will it hurt? Yep. You're stretching scar tissue. It's normally not very flexible. There will some pain and discomfort. If it's of any help, I considered the pain rather minor. It was beyond simple joint or muscle stiffness and it did hurt like Hell. But, if you take your time and stretch though it, it's easily manageable.
    I'm more concerned about if I'll ever be able to throw a punch again pain free. In your guys honest opinion will I ever be able to box and throw punches again without my shoulder being in pain? Should I forget about ever getting back into boxing again?

    Because I gotta tell you, since the surgery, the few times I have tried to throw a punch...my shoulder HURTS LIKE HELL!!!
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  21. #111
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Cool Didn't work for me

    Originally Posted by lcamino View Post
    Amazingly, the incline has been my best friend since the surgery. Maybe a bit psychological, but have never really felt the most comfortable piling the pounds on the flat bench. Dumbells always allowed me to find my own way and arc. Just a thought db.
    I've heard that from a couple of people. But, I think you're in that treasured minority. You lucky S.O.B. ;-)

    I had quite a bit of pain, under heavy load, in an inclined movement. The pain was not in or around the clavicle. It was at the front and below the Acronium. However, the swelling was around the clavicle resectioning. It may be that the inflammation was simply using that area as a vent or exit. I was limited to about 30lbs, maximum, for weeks. I started at about 20lbs, but could never get past the pain. It wasn't so much that it really hurt, but it felt like I was doing damage during the move. Almost as though something was getting pinched, or a tearing sensation. Rather unnerving. However, I did have fairly good luck with a Declined movement. Pulling or pushing down was seldom painful, unless I went stupid with the poundage. And, I could do some respectable weight with a Pec Dec or Flies.

    Once the pain quit, just last week, I've started to really enjoy the incline, again. Between the simple joy of pain free strain, the act of being able to lift again is quite invigorating. Being able to get a good pump in the upper chest, just below the calvicles again is also a plus.

    And, I have to also admit that I don't go too crazy on the Bench Press. I've always used it as a loading for the chest. A wide grip, but taking it deep, just before banging it off the sternum. I've found that this works the Pecs and front delts quite well. I guess it's a matter of how you're built and technique.

    But, the surgery kept me from this until just last week. I seemed to have healed in steps. It was not linear. I'm still approaching this with a high degree of caution. I've gotten this far, I'm not going to jump in and screw it up, again.

    But D**N!!!! Does it ever feel good to be able to move again. I feel ten years younger. At my age, I'll take anything I can get. ;-)

    Old Fart - 52/230 - about 26 weeks Post Op
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  22. #112
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Wink Don't Do That

    Originally Posted by Crusher80 View Post
    I'm more concerned about if I'll ever be able to throw a punch again pain free. In your guys honest opinion will I ever be able to box and throw punches again without my shoulder being in pain? Should I forget about ever getting back into boxing again?

    Because I gotta tell you, since the surgery, the few times I have tried to throw a punch...my shoulder HURTS LIKE HELL!!!
    Sounds stupid, but don't throw the punch. ;-) The area that was worked on is the primary usage in the punch movement.

    That did sound rather bombastic, didn't it. Sorry.

    Crusher, you're as bad as a young dog on a short leash. ;-) You want to get out there and play so bad you can taste it. So, you keep pulling hard. You keep testing the injury, hoping that it's healed overnight. Not going to happen. It's going to take weeks and even months to heal back to full power. For normal day to day usage, I was relatively pain free within a couple of months. Note: I did say normal day to day usage. That does not include boxing, MMA, weight lifting or wrestling with bad guys. What it does include is picking up a coffee cup and the paper, or putting on a shirt and doing my job which is not that physical, normally. Keep in mind that I also went back to full work two months after a quintuple by pass. I'm educated, I never claimed to be smart. ;-)

    Right now, I could go a few rounds on a heavy bag with little or no pain, in my shoulders. I'm about 6 months out from surgery. I'm also 25 years older than you and hopefully you're in better shape. ;-)

    Follow the therapists and let it heal. If you keep testing it, hard, you delay complete healing. Like I said before, I'm not a doctor. I can only tell you what seemed to work well for me. I found that stretching the injured area, gently REPEAT GENTLY, seemed to work best. High Reps with itty bitty weights forces a pump that gets nutrients into the affected area. This also seemed to help with the healing. It was also recommended practice by my therapists.

    Have patience and don't worry. I know, much easier said than done. Follow your therapists and do the work. Take your time and do it right. If you do as you should, you can get yourself a new heavy bag for Christmas and wail on it. You should be back to at least 90% power by that time, if you don't do anything:

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    Last edited by dbrunner00; 06-08-2007 at 02:39 PM.
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  23. #113
    Registered User Crusher80's Avatar
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    I have a question for all you guys that had this surgery that are back to lifting: can you guys do wide grip lat pulldowns ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...tPulldown.html ) and close grip lat pulldowns ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...pPulldown.html ) PAIN FREE right now? Or does doing those two lifts hurt too much to do them?

    What about seated cable rows ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...SeatedRow.html )? Can you guys do them pain free?
    Last edited by Crusher80; 06-07-2007 at 11:37 PM.
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  24. #114
    Registered User Felagund's Avatar
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    Newbie

    Hey guys, I'm new to this forum - I signed up because I saw this thread on shoulder osteolysis.

    A little background. I am 35 and have lifted since I was around 15, sometimes fairly heavy (although I've no idea what qualifies as heavy in this forum - perhaps you guys would scoff at my strength). Anyway, for years I have had to deal with shoulder osteolysis. The story may be familiar to some of you. I had pain on bench, it got worse and worse, I tried to push through til eventually I couldn't do anything, I went to a doctor, he gave me a cortisone shot, I was better for a few weeks, then the condition recurred, I went to another doctor, then to another... Finally it was diagnosesed as osteolysis and they said "Hey just stop lifting. It will go away." Which it did. Except... it came back as soon as I started again. Anyway, I have started and stopped for probably around ten years now, always searching for a way to adjust my routine to get around the problem, sometimes with limited success but never lasting success. I am on around my tenth return from a long layoff. Current preventive measures include no upright rows, limting motion on military presses to nothing below ear level, limiting motion on bench to stopping around an inch or a little more above the chest, icing after every workout, and lots of advil. But of course, my shoulder still hurts and I am sure that within a couple months I will have to quit again.

    So I have some questions.

    1 - I know this is osteolysis and is a bone problem rather than muscle or tendon problem, but has anyone had any luck trying rehabilitation rather than surgery? The doctors pretty much say no, nothing is going to help shy of surgery or a long layoff, but I still wonder.

    2 - So - we like distal clavicle resection - right? It works, and one day not too long (2 or 3 months) after a return to the room is possible and from there a return to full strength and size? What is the cost? Anyone know what the chances of having it covered under medical insurance is?

    3 - One excellent shoulder surgeon in Dallas actually told me he didn't want to do a distal clavicle resection because I had bad shoulder arthritis and if he did the surgery and I returned to lifting eventually the arthritis would get me and the shoulder would have to be replaced. He advised never doing any kind of pressing movement again. Despite the fact that everyone thinks he is the world's greatest shoulder surgeon for sports related problems, I have not taken his advice - would you? Anybody think he is right and I should just forget lifting and find some other athletic pastime? Anybody else gotten advice like this?

    4 - Does anyone have anything to add regarding my current regimen for avoiding the shoulder problems? Anything else to avoid? Any novel ways of hitting the chest and shoulder without aggravating the injury?

    5 - What do you guys think of the standard - nonlifter's - advice - just don't lift as heavy? I mean, I have certainly tried going light on various occasions, but there are at least two problems. One, if you go light and work to failure, it still aggravates the hell out of the shoulder. Two, you just can't get big going light, and maybe it makes me a neanderthal, but I have always been about big muscles.

    Thanks for listening. Any advice is much appreciated.
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  25. #115
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    Originally Posted by Felagund View Post
    Hey guys, I'm new to this forum - I signed up because I saw this thread on shoulder osteolysis.

    A little background. I am 35 and have lifted since I was around 15, sometimes fairly heavy (although I've no idea what qualifies as heavy in this forum - perhaps you guys would scoff at my strength). Anyway, for years I have had to deal with shoulder osteolysis. The story may be familiar to some of you. I had pain on bench, it got worse and worse, I tried to push through til eventually I couldn't do anything, I went to a doctor, he gave me a cortisone shot, I was better for a few weeks, then the condition recurred, I went to another doctor, then to another... Finally it was diagnosesed as osteolysis and they said "Hey just stop lifting. It will go away." Which it did. Except... it came back as soon as I started again. Anyway, I have started and stopped for probably around ten years now, always searching for a way to adjust my routine to get around the problem, sometimes with limited success but never lasting success. I am on around my tenth return from a long layoff. Current preventive measures include no upright rows, limting motion on military presses to nothing below ear level, limiting motion on bench to stopping around an inch or a little more above the chest, icing after every workout, and lots of advil. But of course, my shoulder still hurts and I am sure that within a couple months I will have to quit again.

    So I have some questions.

    1 - I know this is osteolysis and is a bone problem rather than muscle or tendon problem, but has anyone had any luck trying rehabilitation rather than surgery? The doctors pretty much say no, nothing is going to help shy of surgery or a long layoff, but I still wonder.

    2 - So - we like distal clavicle resection - right? It works, and one day not too long (2 or 3 months) after a return to the room is possible and from there a return to full strength and size? What is the cost? Anyone know what the chances of having it covered under medical insurance is?

    3 - One excellent shoulder surgeon in Dallas actually told me he didn't want to do a distal clavicle resection because I had bad shoulder arthritis and if he did the surgery and I returned to lifting eventually the arthritis would get me and the shoulder would have to be replaced. He advised never doing any kind of pressing movement again. Despite the fact that everyone thinks he is the world's greatest shoulder surgeon for sports related problems, I have not taken his advice - would you? Anybody think he is right and I should just forget lifting and find some other athletic pastime? Anybody else gotten advice like this?

    4 - Does anyone have anything to add regarding my current regimen for avoiding the shoulder problems? Anything else to avoid? Any novel ways of hitting the chest and shoulder without aggravating the injury?

    5 - What do you guys think of the standard - nonlifter's - advice - just don't lift as heavy? I mean, I have certainly tried going light on various occasions, but there are at least two problems. One, if you go light and work to failure, it still aggravates the hell out of the shoulder. Two, you just can't get big going light, and maybe it makes me a neanderthal, but I have always been about big muscles.

    Thanks for listening. Any advice is much appreciated.
    From my time dealing with Osteolysis, reasearching it, talking with the guys I met via-therapy waiting room other internet forums, talking around the gym, and such... It seems there are some people who get it and it's always there...

    It's kind of like there are 2 different types Osteolysis... Traumatic and A-Traumatic...

    In my Case I was developed A-Traumatic Os... And then injured my shoulder, which took it the rest of the way.

    I know this is a belly dumper for you... But all the guys with A-traumatic Os... The guys who had no injury associated with their problem... They were all long term sufferers.

    It would go away and comeback based on activity. And the only ones who found any relief of symptoms had the DCR.

    ****

    I can tell you to take Flat Bench completely out of your routine, and it will slow down the onset of Os...

    I'm exclusively Incline DB bench, and dips, and I don't feel a thing wrong with my shoulder, after cessation of activity allowed it to heal.

    ****

    In all honesty though... If you've been battling this for 10 years, and it's the same result over and over again... It's time for the DCR.

    ****

    As for the doc who mentioned a shoulder replacement... This worries me in that it means he's talking about the Glenhumeral region of the shoulder...

    Do you also have something going on "Inside the Socket."
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    Originally Posted by Crusher80 View Post
    I have a question for all you guys that had this surgery that are back to lifting: can you guys do wide grip lat pulldowns ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...tPulldown.html ) and close grip lat pulldowns ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...pPulldown.html ) PAIN FREE right now? Or does doing those two lifts hurt too much to do them?

    What about seated cable rows ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...SeatedRow.html )? Can you guys do them pain free?
    Dude... I'm seriously going to start negging you, if you don't let up this obsession with lifting while injured, or trying to find short cuts to get back into the weight room...

    From now until your doctor tells you the only thing you should be posting related to your injury is #1. What your doctor said. #2. How your rehab is going. #3. How much you enjoy all the cardio you're doing.

    Which BTW, if you ever want to be any kind of decent fighter, then you must know that Cardio fitness makes a champ more than his punching power.
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  27. #117
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Gotta buy into this one

    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    From my time dealing with Osteolysis, reasearching it, talking with the guys I met via-therapy waiting room other internet forums, talking around the gym, and such... It seems there are some people who get it and it's always there...

    It's kind of like there are 2 different types Osteolysis... Traumatic and A-Traumatic...

    In my Case I was developed A-Traumatic Os... And then injured my shoulder, which took it the rest of the way.

    I know this is a belly dumper for you... But all the guys with A-traumatic Os... The guys who had no injury associated with their problem... They were all long term sufferers.

    It would go away and comeback based on activity. And the only ones who found any relief of symptoms had the DCR.

    ****

    I can tell you to take Flat Bench completely out of your routine, and it will slow down the onset of Os...

    I'm exclusively Incline DB bench, and dips, and I don't feel a thing wrong with my shoulder, after cessation of activity allowed it to heal.

    ****

    In all honesty though... If you've been battling this for 10 years, and it's the same result over and over again... It's time for the DCR.

    ****

    As for the doc who mentioned a shoulder replacement... This worries me in that it means he's talking about the Glenhumeral region of the shoulder...

    Do you also have something going on "Inside the Socket."
    Mine started out as aggrivation and worked it's way up to a full wailer. I couldn't do dips or Inclines. I think it centers around the axact area of the damage. In my case, the shoulder had filled with bone spurs. The photos looked like the joint had been packed with black sand, right under the Acronium.

    I think that once you get to a point of the damage, anything will aggrivate it. I never did find a way to work around it, heavy or light. I went through about 4 months of therapy exercises. It helped to a point. But, after I reached that point, they became useless. Lifting the arm outward or rotating it away from my body was a screamer. I actually couldn't do it.

    For my own opinion, I think that the condition was already developing and a tad too much on the bench finally pushed it over the edge. IMHO that once it starts, it can't really be stopped or worked around. It least that was true in my case.

    As far as laying off for awhile, you said you've had 10 come backs. Doesn't work real well, does it? ;-) The damage is there and it's not going away. Laying off will not cure it. This isn't a muscle or tendon, it's bone. It will not heal. It has to be modified.

    A DCR may be the answer, but the Arthritis thing will be a concern. I was also warned that if the shoulder started hurting again, it would probably be arthritis. But, then again, I'm an old fart. It was worth the risk for me.

    As far as the "Go Heavy or Go Home" mentality. That's going to be a judgement call. I was throwing about 250 or so, before my injury, on the bench. IMHO, if you're over 200lbs and you can throw your own body weight, you're not doing too bad. I'm sure that at least a few of the folks in this forum are in the 300+ class, easily. That's too much for my old bones. I've had pretty good luck with Push Down on the cables.I max out the machine, but I think it still might be considered towards the "Light" class. I can rap out about 8 set of 15 at max weight and get a pretty good pump and burn. It allowed me to keep and even build some strenght after my surgery.

    I would suggest taking a serious look at the surgery, and maybe a couple of opinions. Just because the Doctor walks on water, doesn't make him infallible. There may be newer techniques out there. If your Doctor is worth his salt, he'll probably encourage you to check around and with other Doctors. The artificial shoulder is a new twist, to me. I don't know anybody that has one. So, I don't have any real data to form an opinion. I have several relatives with artificial knees, included two in my own father. (Something else I get to look forward to) But, nothing on shoulders.
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  28. #118
    Registered User Felagund's Avatar
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    Nainoa

    Don't worry about it being a "dumper." Just looking for informed opinions. If I can return to full strength after the surgery, then that is actually good nes, especially if the recovery only takes a few months. As to whether I have an "inside the socket" problem, I don't really know. I just know he said I had some pretty bad arthritis, though it could perhaps be cleaned up a bit if they did the DCR.

    It is funny that the exercises you mention are actually pretty bad ones for me. I flat do not do dips anymore. I used to come way, way down and they forced my shoulders way back. Incline DB press is a favorite of mine, but my shoulder always feels it. Meanwhile, I have learned to adjust some on flat bench and it is not so bad. I used to shift the weight back onto my shoulders, which have always been disproportionately strong, but now I concentrate more on pure pecs. Military presses are where I have the real problem. But how do you build shoulders without them? Sometimes I will go to the hammer strength machine to take a little of the pressure off, but I jsut don't feel like I can get away without SOME free weight shoulder presses.

    I think it was dbrunner who talked a little bit about weights. Just for background, I used to do my bench sets at about 335, maxing out right around 400, though I never do one rep sets. Yesterday I did a set with 295 after having been back in the room for about a month. I don't know if this sounds heavy or not. I am a big, heavy guy, so this is really not all that much weight for me. Certainly, I know plenty of guys much lighter who go much heavier. I think I would be happy if I could get back to sets with 335, and maybe 100 or 110 lb dumbbell military presses. That and get my weight back down to around 245 at the same time. I'm never going to be a real, huge, shredded bodybuilder - I just like being a big, strong guy.
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  29. #119
    Phoenix Nainoa's Avatar
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    A little 411 clarification

    Originally Posted by Felagund View Post
    Don't worry about it being a "dumper." Just looking for informed opinions. If I can return to full strength after the surgery, then that is actually good nes, especially if the recovery only takes a few months. As to whether I have an "inside the socket" problem, I don't really know. I just know he said I had some pretty bad arthritis, though it could perhaps be cleaned up a bit if they did the DCR.
    Okay... See here's what doesn't match up...

    Shoulder Arthritis = Usually in the AC joint, but can be in the socket... Bone deformation from Prolonged Chronic Osteolysis is not an uncommon diagnosis for AC arthritis.

    Shoulder Replacement = Damage to the Glenhumeral socket, where they remove the upper head of the humerus bone, and replace it with metal (Often having to do a little work on the Glenoid (Socket).

    ****

    The shoulder is (In Laymens terms) two joints... The Glenhumeral (Ball and Socket) and the AC joint

    So if one was to take the world "Shoulder Replacement" out of your previous post... Then it all makes sense, and I say you're looking at all thumbs up for the DCR
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  30. #120
    Doug B. dbrunner00's Avatar
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    Might be a good call

    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    Okay... See here's what doesn't match up...

    Shoulder Arthritis = Usually in the AC joint, but can be in the socket... Bone deformation from Prolonged Chronic Osteolysis is not an uncommon diagnosis for AC arthritis.

    Shoulder Replacement = Damage to the Glenhumeral socket, where they remove the upper head of the humerus bone, and replace it with metal (Often having to do a little work on the Glenoid (Socket).

    ****

    The shoulder is (In Laymens terms) two joints... The Glenhumeral (Ball and Socket) and the AC joint

    So if one was to take the world "Shoulder Replacement" out of your previous post... Then it all makes sense, and I say you're looking at all thumbs up for the DCR

    Might be a good call. The way my condition was explained to me, was that the Clavicular problem was aggrivating the Acronial. The constant banging and scraping of the Clavicle into the Acronium was helping to generate the bone spurs under the Acronium. This turned the Bursa into shredded clam and forced it's removal. It also filled a good part of the joint with the bone spurs, the black sand I mentioned earlier. I think the proper term is Acronial Arthrosis. That sounds remarkably like Acronial Arthritis. So, as another laymen, I think a surgery similar to what I had may do a world of good. It involved a Clavicular AND Acronial Resectioning. Basically, he scraped out the Glenhumeral and polished up the bone, along with removing 1cm of the clavicle.

    May be worth exploring.
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