Let's talk - Natural Mr Olympia gives advice

[Briggsy]

Hi john,

firstly this thread has been very informative, thanks on behalf of all the natural guys here.

now the question.

do you beleive that the main efforts should be on building the major muscle groups with heavy compound movements to build superior size and then dieting down to attain a championship physique

or

keeping your bodyfat low and doing a mixture of compound and isolation exercises to build detail within the muscle while sacrificing some size for the sake of more "quality?

recently i have read alot about studies showing the shape of a muscle is genetic and so called "shaping" exercises are innefective. this would make the heavy compound method most effective by my thinking.

then again i have not won a natural mr. olympia so your oppinion would be greatly appreciated.

cheers
briggsy

[glwanabe]

That's a good point you bring up about the chance of injury with two opposing bodyparts being out of proportion strength wise. To be honest, I wasn't even thinking along those lines, I was thinking more about how the physique looked. But there is the chance of injury if two opposing bodyparts are out of proportion in size and strength, particulary the abs and lower back, the front and rear delts and the quads and hamstrings. Still, like you said, it's a good gauge to go by to keep your strength levels in proportion to one another. I see so many guys focusing on the bench press but they have wafer-thin backs and they don't even look like the same person when you see them from the back. Also, many bodybuilders neglect their legs for their upper body training so attempting to keep the deadlift and squat in proportion is a good way to keep that balance.

I had been thinking about a lot of this stuff as I got back to lifting after a long layoff. Actually there were a lot of aspects I had to consider. I had done some pretty good damage to my knees when I was younger, and had done a lot of running when I was in the Army. The running was not kind to my knees as well.

I am working on a similar split as you have said you use. This was a split I used years ago and it just felt right to do things this way.

M-T
chest
shoulders
tri's
abs

W-off

T-F
calf raise
squat
row or deads
bi's

S-S-off

From a mechanical standpoint it is easier, at least for me, to do deads and benches. Squats and rows involve hard work either from a mechanical standpoint or a breathing aspect. I feel people neglect these two movements because of that, and those groups are not the "show" muscles. They don't realize that, these exercises are hard, because they are important.

I've come to feel that it is not enough to just say, to get big bench, row, squat. That there needs to be an order even among these basic groups, of importance to the order done, and weights used.

legs come first
Squat, full squats, even if it means having to use less weight. There are other muscle groups that are called into play with a full squat.

Back is second
deads once a week, but only as much weight as you can squat. Go for higher reps if your feeling strong. Row once a week as well, but don't use more than your bench weight. That probably won't be a problem, as most people are not nearly strong enough in the row poundage.

Chest is the third group
IMO, it is the easiest group to work, from a mechanical standpoint, so it is a favorite. I think the object here is to watch for overdevelopment to soon. I think that more work should be put into developing the Deltoids to a complete degree before working the chest to a massive size.

By not letting your bench numbers increase to fast you can build a strong back and keep a balance in the major antaganist groups. While still building shoulders and tri's that are strong and have been allowed to become conditioned for the chest work when appropriate.

All of that is just my opinion from a guy working out in his garage. I'am sure others will disagree, and say to build the chest and not hold it back. Truthfully that is the way I had done it in the past as well. It was reading this thread that may me think a little harder about some of this stuff.

[Natural_O]

Hi john,

firstly this thread has been very informative, thanks on behalf of all the natural guys here.

now the question.

do you beleive that the main efforts should be on building the major muscle groups with heavy compound movements to build superior size and then dieting down to attain a championship physique

or

keeping your bodyfat low and doing a mixture of compound and isolation exercises to build detail within the muscle while sacrificing some size for the sake of more "quality?

recently i have read alot about studies showing the shape of a muscle is genetic and so called "shaping" exercises are innefective. this would make the heavy compound method most effective by my thinking.

then again i have not won a natural mr. olympia so your oppinion would be greatly appreciated.

cheers
briggsy

Hi Briggsy, thanks for the compliments on the thread, I'm glad you are getting something out of it.

As for your question, I definitely believe the correct way to build the physique is to train heavy with the basic exercises and eat a lot of good bodybuilding food for the first several years of training and then, after you have the basic size and mass, cut back down and sculpt the physique. Doing it the other way would take way too long because, unless you are extremely genetically gifted and you grow using light weights with little effort, it would take forever to slowly build up the body by staying lean. This is especially true if you have a fast metabolism and find it difficult to add size.

Let me give you a good example. When I started bodybuilding at 14 years old, I was a skinny 135 pounds at 5'8". I needed to get bigger fast! After one year of training, I was 155 pounds at 15 years old. The next year, I was about 170 pounds at 16 years old. I started competing in December of 1979, about 3 months before my 17th birthday. I got so motivated by competing that I competed in 10 competitions over the next 3 years before I turned 20 years old. Unfortunately, because I was staying lean so often and my metabolism was so damn fast, I didn't really grow that much when I was a teenager. I would guess that my heaviest bodyweight was 185 pounds and my competition bodyweight was probably only 170-175 pounds. I felt very skinny and underweight at my last teenage competition.

When I turned 20, I decided to take a full year off of competition and not compete again until I was 21. Within 6 months of my last teenage competition, my bodyweight soared to 205 pounds from the skinny 175 pounds I was in my last teenage contest. This was my body's reaction to finally getting off the low calorie diet and giving myself time to grow by relaxing and eating more. After another year of bulking up (training very heavy and eating a LOT of good bodybuilding food), my bodyweight was up to a very big and bulking 231 pounds.

When I went back into competition at 21 and 22 years old, I had a totally new physique because I had been training so heavy and eating so much food. I continued to train heavy and I would only compete once a year from this point on so I could use the off season to bulk up and get back to 225-230 pounds before cutting back down to approximately 205 pounds for the contest. If I would have continued to compete all the time and stay lean, I probably never would have developed the size that I eventually did by bulking up.

[Ravish]

When I went back into competition at 21 and 22 years old, I had a totally new physique because I had been training so heavy and eating so much food. I continued to train heavy and I would only compete once a year from this point on so I could use the off season to bulk up and get back to 225-230 pounds before cutting back down to approximately 205 pounds for the contest. If I would have continued to compete all the time and stay lean, I probably never would have developed the size that I eventually did by bulking up.

How much would you say your big lifts (squat, deadlift, bench) increased when you bulked up to 230?

[Natural_O]

How much would you say your big lifts (squat, deadlift, bench) increased when you bulked up to 230?

It was really a combination of pushing myself to train heavier and increasing my calories at the same time. It wasn't just a matter of gaining weight and then getting stronger and bigger, it was actually happening at the same time. However, I think it was adding the extra calories that helped to make a difference. I was training 4 days a week using a basic routine and training each bodypart twice a week. I was going heavy, doing 3-8 reps on all my sets but my bodyweight was stuck at 205 pounds for about 8 months. I was eating a lot of food at this point but it obviously wasn't enough and my body didn't want to make any changes. When I pushed the calories even more, that is what seemed to make the difference. I started getting bigger from the extra calories and then I was able to get stronger. I can't remember exactly how much my weights went up during this period but I do remember getting bigger all over. My waist went up, of course, but I also gained mass all over. Even my calves got bigger just because they were carrying around more bodyweight. I went from 205 pounds in February to 230 pounds by late August so it was a big change but this bulk up period changed my physique forever because, after this, I was able to get big fairly easily whenever I wanted to gain size. Before I went through this bulking up period, it was practically impossible to gain size.

[Eclectic1]

Hi John,

I'm studying your book Natural Bodybuilding. I'm really enjoying and learning a lot from it. But I am confused at something which I hope you can clarify for me.

On page 133 when you are explaining bent-over barbell rows you wrote, "Avoid these common mistakes...letting the elbows squeeze in too close to the body instead of flaring out..."

On page 134 you are explaining one-arm dumbbel rows and you wrote, "...pull the dumbbell up with the elbow tucked in to the side...Don't let the elbow flare out to the side..."

I have followed your advice and clearly you wrote sound advice for targetting the back instead of the posterior delts and arms. But I am confused why it is so when they are the same exercise save for the apparatus.

[Natural_O]

Hi John,

I'm studying your book Natural Bodybuilding. I'm really enjoying and learning a lot from it. But I am confused at something which I hope you can clarify for me.

On page 133 when you are explaining bent-over barbell rows you wrote, "Avoid these common mistakes...letting the elbows squeeze in too close to the body instead of flaring out..."

On page 134 you are explaining one-arm dumbbel rows and you wrote, "...pull the dumbbell up with the elbow tucked in to the side...Don't let the elbow flare out to the side..."

I have followed your advice and clearly you wrote sound advice for targetting the back instead of the posterior delts and arms. But I am confused why it is so when they are the same exercise save for the apparatus.

Glad you like the book! The barbell row and one-arm dumbbell row are really different exercises so that's why the elbow and arm position is different for each movement. The barbell row is designed to hit the middle lats for thickness. If you grip the barbell too close or if you let the elbows squeeze in close instead of flaring out the elbows, you will hit your biceps more than your lats. By using a wider grip, the elbows are allowed to flare out more at the completion of the movement and you will hit the outer lats more effectively because you are taking the biceps out of the exercise. It's sort of like the barbell bench press and the way it hits the chest and triceps. If you grab the barbell too close on the bench press, you will feel it more in your triceps. If you grab it with a wider than shoulder width grip, you will feel it more in your pecs.

With the dumbbell row, if you pull the arm up and away from the body, it becomes more like a bent-over lateral raise than a dumbbell row. In other words, you will be hitting the rear delt more than the lats. By keeping the elbow in really tight (almost so the elbow "brushes" against the ribcage), you will hit the lats much harder and you will feel the contraction much more in the back at the top of the movement.

[mofolife1]

Hi, John. What do you think about the following routines: HST and 5x5.

I have been lifting heavy for 10 months now, but I just started HST and it feels good using lighter weight for once.

Are these 2 programs good for mass? I was thinking of doing 5x5 after I finish the HST program?

Thanks

[Eclectic1]

Thanks John

[Natural_O]

Hi, John. What do you think about the following routines: HST and 5x5.

I have been lifting heavy for 10 months now, but I just started HST and it feels good using lighter weight for once.

Are these 2 programs good for mass? I was thinking of doing 5x5 after I finish the HST program?

Thanks

I'm sorry, I don't know what the HSF program is. Can you explain how this program works? I think the 5x5 program is very good for increasing size and strength.

[SHOWTIME]

Hey John,

is there anytime that you plan on coming to Canada? Any posing or anything up here especially Edmonton?

Reps upon reload great advice thanks alot

[Natural_O]

Hey John,

is there anytime that you plan on coming to Canada? Any posing or anything up here especially Edmonton?

Reps upon reload great advice thanks alot

Hey Sapper,

No, no plans to come to Canada but if you know of a gym owner or contest promoter that would like to have me out for a seminar, I would love to come. I was in Canada a few times giving seminars, the last time in Toronto in 2005 at the FAME Expo.

[Cuchulainn]

John, first off thanks for being here and answering our questions.

It would be great of Bodybuilding.com would get you on the Fit Show sometime. As you may already know the Fit Show is another feature on this site which offers advice, tips, and insight into the bodybuilding lifestyle. I recall a few years back the Fit Show posted a few clips of Milos Sarcev's, Secrets of the Pros, DVD. It might be a good opportunity to help promote your books and dvd.


Secrets of the Pros:http://thefitshow.com/week3/milos_chest_med.htm
Layne also has a fantastic, and popular series: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/insidethelife0.htm

I don't know what Layne is trying to sell. But, I do know that Layne is a huuuge fan of Glutamine, CEE, and Kre-alkyln, so I figure on the last episode he'll shill for those products. (sarcasm)


I really appreciate the series Layne. Nice work.

[Natural_O]

John, first off thanks for being here and answering our questions.

It would be great of Bodybuilding.com would get you on the Fit Show sometime. As you may already know the Fit Show is another feature on this site which offers advice, tips, and insight into the bodybuilding lifestyle. I recall a few years back the Fit Show posted a few clips of Milos Sarcev's, Secrets of the Pros, DVD. It might be a good opportunity to help promote your books and dvd.


Secrets of the Pros:http://thefitshow.com/week3/milos_chest_med.htm
Layne also a fantastic, and popular series: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/insidethelife0.htm

I don't know what Layne is trying to sell. But, I do know that Layne is a huuuge fan of Glutamine, CEE, and Kre-alkyln, so I figure on the last episode he'll shill for those products. (sarcasm)


I really appreciate the series Layne. Nice work.

That sounds great, I would love to do something like that. Who would I contact to get it going?

[Ravish]

I'm sorry, I don't know what the HSF program is. Can you explain how this program works? I think the 5x5 program is very good for increasing size and strength.

What variation of 5x5 do you recommend? Like how many exercises, weight, ramping, etc?

This is one of the most popular 5x5 routines on the workout program section on the forums, what do you think?

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

[TheSheepdog]

Absolutely the best pro on here. Full, direct answers to help bodybuilders improve themselves the natural way, thats what we need.

Btw, i will go pro and change my screen name to Current Natural Mr.O (just thought i would throw that in )

[Cuchulainn]

That sounds great, I would love to do something like that. Who would I contact to get it going?

Bob Chick? Seems like he is Mr. Fit show. Layne would probably also know since he has his own series going on.


Edit: I sent PM's to Bob Chick, Layne and Admin. Hopefully that gets the ball rolling for you. I'm sure many on here would be very interested in hearing what you have to say and picking up any tips that you have to offer.

Let us know what happens.

[TheSheepdog]

Have you heard anything about Mike Morris lately, and his quest to compete as a natural?

[str8flexed]

John, send me an email and I will send you the info for the people to get in touch with. Now that I think of it, it might behoove us to do a collaboration at some point since we are both close in proximity.



-Layne

[Quelly]

John, send me an email and I will send you the info for the people to get in touch with. Now that I think of it, it might behoove us to do a collaboration at some point since we are both close in proximity.



-Layne

oooooo....GUEST STAR ON LAYNE TV!!

[Cuchulainn]

John, send me an email and I will send you the info for the people to get in touch with. Now that I think of it, it might behoove us to do a collaboration at some point since we are both close in proximity.



-Layne

Sweet.

[Cuchulainn]

Things aren't too bad. The goverment is messing round at the moment so there is a lot of change in charge etc, but nothing that's affecting us Great Brits


John, I'm not quite sure of your calf development, but mine and a lot of other's calves are extremeley stubborn. I have noticed improvement recently, but nothing much at all really. I know the calves are fast recovering muscle group, so would it be alright, in your opinion, to hit them with 4 sets 4 times a week? What i wanted to do, was a soleus prominent day, then a gastrocnemius prominent day, alternating between standing calf raises and seated etc. Any thoughts on this?

You have to understand the anatomy of the calves(gastrocnemius). The muscle fibers in the calves are both fast twitch and slow twich contrary to being predominantly one or the other. Because of this you should use both heavy weight/low reps, and light weight and high reps, in your training. I've gone to 100 reps on high rep days. Usually I don't go too much past 50.

Well, if you are trying to gain weight and get bigger, you don't want to do any cardio. I think cardio is overrated, even for losing fat. I try to lose bodyfat only with my diet when I am dieting. If I have to, I'll start out with 3 days a week of cardio, only 20-30 minutes a day. But the ideal situation is to lose the fat only with dieting and weight training. In your case, if you are trying to gain weight, don't do any cardio at all.

John sounds like you would agree with this study.

Kramer, Volek et al.

Influence of exercise training on physiological and performance changes with weight loss in men.

Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 9, pp. 1320-1329, 1999.

Overweight subjects were assigned to three groups: diet-only, diet plus aerobics, diet plus aerobics plus weights. The diet group lost 14.6 pounds of fat in 12 weeks. The aerobic group lost only one more pound (15.6 pounds) than the diet group (training was three times a week starting at 30 minutes and progressing to 50 minutes over the 12 weeks).

The weight training group lost 21.1 pounds of fat (44% and 35% more than diet and aerobic only groups respectively).

The cardio group did a lot of work for only 1 lb. of fat loss.

[Khemist]

You have to understand the anatomy of the calves(gastrocnemius). The muscle fibers in the calves are both fast twitch and slow twich contrary to being predominantly one or the other. Because of this you should use both heavy weight/low reps, and light weight and high reps, in your training. I've gone to 100 reps on high rep days. Usually I don't go too much past 50.



John sounds like you would agree with this study.



The cardio group did a lot of work for only 1 lb. of fat loss.

Do you have the full study bro? I would like to see the weight program they used and whether it was what a bodybuilder would use or more of a circuit style training. Reps.

[Sultan Abs]

Hey natural o, your huge and i cannot believe you are drug-free. Good on ya man.
I'd like to ask what you think of bicep peaks, is it all genetics, and any advice to get them without crying because your genetics suck.

[Natural_O]

Absolutely the best pro on here. Full, direct answers to help bodybuilders improve themselves the natural way, thats what we need.

Btw, i will go pro and change my screen name to Current Natural Mr.O (just thought i would throw that in )

Thanks ArmyMuscle, I appreciate that!

[Natural_O]

Have you heard anything about Mike Morris lately, and his quest to compete as a natural?

No, I haven't. I don't know if he is going to continue to compete anymore or not. After being "on" for so long, it will take his body time to get used to being natural and he will have to learn how to diet and train as a natural bodybuilder in order to make some progress and look better. Obviously, he still won't have much of a chance against the other pro bodybuilders so I think he would be much better off competing in a legitimate natural organization.

[Natural_O]

John, send me an email and I will send you the info for the people to get in touch with. Now that I think of it, it might behoove us to do a collaboration at some point since we are both close in proximity.



-Layne

That sounds great Layne, thank you for the offer!

John

[Natural_O]

You have to understand the anatomy of the calves(gastrocnemius). The muscle fibers in the calves are both fast twitch and slow twich contrary to being predominantly one or the other. Because of this you should use both heavy weight/low reps, and light weight and high reps, in your training. I've gone to 100 reps on high rep days. Usually I don't go too much past 50.



John sounds like you would agree with this study.



The cardio group did a lot of work for only 1 lb. of fat loss.

Absolutely! The problem with using cardio as a means of fat loss is that the body quickly adapts to the cardiovascular exercise program. As the body becomes more cardiovascular efficient, you have to do more and more cardio to get the same benefits. Instead of burning more fat, if you do the cardio harder and longer, you will be burning more calories. If you don't do any weight training to hold onto the muscle tissue, your body will sacrifice as much muscle as it does fat as you increase the cardio workouts and continue to diet. Cardio can be a helpful aid in losing fat but I think the primary thing is to eat a fat loss diet containing a high amount of protein, moderate carbs (low glycemic and high fiber) and a moderate amount of fat (mostly essential fatty acids) along with an intense weight training program at least 2-3 days a week to stimulate and hold onto the muscle tissue.

[Natural_O]

Hey natural o, your huge and i cannot believe you are drug-free. Good on ya man.
I'd like to ask what you think of bicep peaks, is it all genetics, and any advice to get them without crying because your genetics suck.

Bicep peaks are mostly genetic, I'm sorry to say. However, by using exercises that peak contract the muscle such as concentration curls, spider curls and one arm db preacher curls, you can develop more of a peak. You may not develop the peak of Arnold, Robby Robinson or Albert Beckles but you can make it better. Look at early pictures of Franco when he started training. You would never think he would later develop a great set of arms. But, by training his biceps consistently hard and never giving up, he eventually developed a pair of arms that won him 2 coveted Mr. Olympia titles.

[ArchAngel'73]

John, send me an email and I will send you the info for the people to get in touch with. Now that I think of it, it might behoove us to do a collaboration at some point since we are both close in proximity.



-Layne

OMG! That would be a freakin' dream come true. I hope bb.com can come up with something with you and Layne.

Been learning a lot since I last posted a question, thank you. I have a few questions about the posing routine. What can make a competitor stand out/impress the judges in this category, splits, props, etc? What (besides the moon shot) is not a good idea. I'm taller, is there any benefit in kneeling, bent over, or posing close to the ground?
I've also heard a rumour maybe you can clarify. Were you suspended/terminated from the organization you competed in for having a column in Ironman?! Have the nattie organizations really gotten to be that possessive and political? If this is true, what a shame. If not, sorry to bother you.
Thanks again John, its been quite the learning experience from pg 1 on (literally!)