dumbell flyes - why are they bad/good?

[dparm99]

well i'm considering (only considering) putting some dumbell flyes in my chest routine. Reasoning being that after i've done my flat bench i'm already spent as far as pressing movements go and haven't increased weight on my incline bench in ages.
So i was thinking doing:

Flat bench
Incline flyes
Decline bench

then the following week doing maybe

Incline bench
Flat flyes
Decline bench


Now i realise most people think flyes are a crap exercise, but could you give me your reasoning why you think they are crap.

Also anyone that likes them and has made gains using them, please also let me know.

Cheers.

[ratmonkey]

did you used to do dips and now do decline for a change of pace?

imo you should take out the decline and add dips and incline bench. also switch to db's for either flat or incline bench if at all possible.

flyes are a great exercise to stretch out the muscle fascia and promote more growth. you won't see much strength gain on any other exercises though.

[dparm99]

i've never done dips, i work out at home and don't have a dip station, i guess i could use two chairs but... Anyway back to the question at hand...

[Stimpy]

Originally posted by ratmonkey
did you used to do dips and now do decline for a change of pace?

imo you should take out the decline and add dips and incline bench. also switch to db's for either flat or incline bench if at all possible.

flyes are a great exercise to stretch out the muscle fascia and promote more growth. you won't see much strength gain on any other exercises though.

bump on this only I don't feel much use from doing flyes with dumbbells, I feel its soooooo much better when i do machine flyes. Give them both a try and see which one you feel works better for you. Oh and definitely add dips to your routine, they're one of the best exercises.

[RippedUp]

Yes, DB flyes are overrated. Too much risk of injury for little stimulation.

Stick with dips and DB pressing (flat/incline).

[bukem]

Originally posted by RippedUp
Yes, DB flyes are overrated. Too much risk of injury for little stimulation.

Stick with dips and DB pressing (flat/incline).

Got to bump dbs and dips they really are a must for mass.
I do flies every 6-8 weeks or so at the end of chest routine for variety a finisher and to stretch, but with light wieght high reps 16-20.
But as Ripped said they provide little stimulation and certainly wouldn't incorporate them in a routine full time

[braindmg]

^

[RichM]

DB flys are an excelent chest isolation movement

[hyp3r3xt3nsion]

flyes are over-rated. they're basically stretching with weights imho. stick w/ heavy pressings and dippings.

Originally posted by dparm99
i've never done dips, i work out at home and don't have a dip station, i guess i could use two chairs but... Anyway back to the question at hand...

buy a dip station; one of the better investments you'll make

[parrothead]

bump to dips!!!!!!!!!!!

you cannot have a complete chest w/o dips in your routine. declines don't even compare..imho

[Xpander]

Originally posted by dparm99
well i'm considering (only considering) putting some dumbell flyes in my chest routine. Reasoning being that after i've done my flat bench i'm already spent as far as pressing movements go and haven't increased weight on my incline bench in ages.

flys won't do much in terms of strength or size gains...i'd consider doing db incline first in your chest routine. also, i'm not sure how you can be spent on pressing movements only after doing your flat bench, how many sets are you doing ?? even if you were to be doing a lot (5+ sets), i'd think you should still have the energy for more pressing movements....

[Eric_FXST]

I like flyes. Its just me, I know.
But, they make my chest feel nice after all the pressing. I don't know if it helps to stretch the pec out after all heavy weights, or what...but it makes the muscle feel good.

I currently do 3 working sets each of bench, incline, dips and then finish with 3 sets of flyes.
I can't imagine a better 'finishing' exercise.

Eric.

[ATrainer]

Oh, you new this was comming. The reason DB flys aren't very good is that you lose all the resistance at the top, right where you should be peaked. Pretty much the same with all other presses.

[ultraMagnetical]

well about about machine flies...you dont lose resistance at any point.....also doing cable flies you always have more resistance than doint bb curls does that mean the cable curls are better than barbell curls?

[zackmurphy]

Originally posted by RichM
DB flys are an excelent chest isolation movement

But they don't isolate the chest at all. Still just as much anterior and medial delt involved. Probably about 35 to 40% chest. It does remove the tricep, though.

[ATrainer]

Cable curls can be reworked to obtain a leverage disadvantage at the peak, so yes they are infinitely better. BB curls lose the resistance at the top, and most pro's advice to restrict ROM so as not to lose it is rediculous.
Dead on Zack!

[BigKazWSM747]

IMO flyes are usually not worth doing. They are ok to throw in every once and awhile but they should never replace the cores of benching (incline and flat) and dips.

[trap_builder]

So, whats the best chest exercise for the upper chest?

if the flies and the bench press arent useful? would the cable standing fly be a good idea since you dont loose resistance?

[ATrainer]

The upper chest originates on the clavicle. That has to be a consideration. Standing cable flys aren't good because you waste too much energy with posture stabilization. And when people take a couple of steps forward, you lose resistance at full extension. My fly's have a variation for upper pecs, and it has to do with the angle of pull.

My hard-drive crashed. I ordered a new one, and when I get it up and reload all my video clips, I can capture frames and post pictures of everything I talk about. Descriptions are hard, pictures are worth a thousand words.

[RichM]

But they don't isolate the chest at all. Still just as much anterior and medial delt involved. Probably about 35 to 40% chest. It does remove the tricep, though.


so your saying db flys arent a chest isolation move? Then why are they described in every book as an isolatino chest movement? O thats right cuz they are more of a shoulder exercise

[zackmurphy]

Originally posted by RichM
so your saying db flys arent a chest isolation move? Then why are they described in every book as an isolatino chest movement? O thats right cuz they are more of a shoulder exercise

Easy, tiger. I don't know what books we're talking about, but DB pec flies aren't a pec isolation move.

You can prove this yourself. Do one with one arm with a super-light weight and feel the anterior delt while you do it. Is it soft like warm jello or strong like bull? Bull, baby. Ditto on the medial head. They're both helping. A lot.

Is more pec is involved on the pec fly than in the bench press? Yeah. But nowhere near isolation.

[CamaroKing]

For me they have evneed out pes like when you go to bench they make them balanced

[zackmurphy]

Originally posted by RichM
so your saying db flys arent a chest isolation move? Then why are they described in every book as an isolatino chest movement? O thats right cuz they are more of a shoulder exercise

And one more thing about the book issue. And I mean this all in the nicest possible way.

Think of it this way, when you read "experts" about how to get huge: Everyone wants the big chest, right? It's cool lookin', and it sells books. So how many books do you sell if you print something that explains that there really is no (unless Atrainer's miracle movement is right) pec iso move, and that all chest work is really just hammering the delts, tris, etc. How many books do you sell? You'd be run out of town. Tarred and feathered.

Sure, presses and flies hit the pec. No brainer. But that's not te full story.

Why do you think all those 7-minute, 6-minute, 6-second ab commercials sell equipment and advocate crunches. 'Cause they can SELL that crap. How many videos do you sell if "6-second Abs" is the 6 seconds in the kitchen when you make the right food choices? We know abs is all nutrition, but nobody would buy that. Same with most fitness books.

Okay, rant over.

Murphy Out.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by zackmurphy
Easy, tiger. I don't know what books we're talking about, but DB pec flies aren't a pec isolation move.

You can prove this yourself. Do one with one arm with a super-light weight and feel the anterior delt while you do it. Is it soft like warm jello or strong like bull? Bull, baby. Ditto on the medial head. They're both helping. A lot.

Is more pec is involved on the pec fly than in the bench press? Yeah. But nowhere near isolation.

Strong like bull!! Dude, you kill me.

[RichM]

Then how do you explain in Arnolds encyclopedia they are written as a chest isolation move?

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by RichM
Then how do you explain in Arnolds encyclopedia they are written as a chest isolation move?

That book is extremely outdated, amigo. He also advocated squatting w/ your heels on a board to emphasize your quads.

[RichM]

no bro i'm not talkin about the one he published in the 70's i'm talkin about his latest one the renewed one where alot of that retarted **** (like squating with a board) is takein out and its only true lifts

[powerhouse21054]

Originally posted by zackmurphy
Easy, tiger. I don't know what books we're talking about, but DB pec flies aren't a pec isolation move.

You can prove this yourself. Do one with one arm with a super-light weight and feel the anterior delt while you do it. Is it soft like warm jello or strong like bull? Bull, baby. Ditto on the medial head. They're both helping. A lot.

Is more pec is involved on the pec fly than in the bench press? Yeah. But nowhere near isolation.

ok, going to try to clear some things up. Yes books do say that dumbbell flys are an isolation movement. Also another thing, Yes dumbbell flys use a lot of deltoids, but the bench press does as well. Do a dip and you're shoulder will feel hard too, same with a bench press. Delts will be used a lot in any pressing movement and will not feel mushy unless your fat, but that's not the point. With the chest there really are no exercises that can be strictly worded isolation because no matter what you'll find yourself using shoulders or triceps. Flys are considered isolation by many though because you take out the use of your triceps and it targets your chest and yes your delts.

If you want to get all technical, you can't isolate anything. Even doing preacher curls, your triceps are the antagonist. Are you working your tricep to death? nope, but it's there stabilizing, therefore being worked, and therefore your biceps aren't being the ONLY 100% thing being worked. This discussion is almost too stupid to be discussed and there was no point in it being brought up whether it's isolation or not. He just wanted to know if they are ok in his routine. If he likes them, he likes them. if he doesn't, then he doesn't. I would take the BASIC movements though first. Flat, incline, and dips.

[powerhouse21054]

Originally posted by ATrainer
Oh, you new this was comming. The reason DB flys aren't very good is that you lose all the resistance at the top, right where you should be peaked. Pretty much the same with all other presses.

Since i'm at it, i want to discuss this quote. You lose resistance at the top meaning you're not feeling the stretch on the pecs at the top as you do in the bottom position? or are you saying that your pecs aren't resisting anything at the top period? If you are saying the second, then you are wrong. If you bring your arms to the top together and you are holding a weight, your chest is being used. Yes your chest won't feel it as much at the top but that's the same as when you do a barbell bench. Complete a barbell bench press and you'll feel the weight coming down and the slight stretch at the bottom before you press up, but when you lock out, it doesn't "FEEL" as heavy does it. Are you still resisting a weight though? yep. You never really lose resistance in between reps when doing a movement even when locked out. You are still holding the weight. However, when doing most exercises you shouldn't be locking anything out anyways so you are working the muscle. Unless you are purposely doing lockout movements for bench presses and the such.

[trap_builder]

So if you loose resistance at the top then why not limit the ROM a bit to keep the tension?

Mr. hyperextension must be really really mad with all these new threads bashing the classical mass building exercises, hahaha