Piracetam?

[blackdream71]

bump?

[pu12en12g]

Can you guys descibe the effects some more ?

Go into detail ?

Give examples ?

Analogy ?

Comparisons ?

[stabmaster]

I always like to have "crossover" in my supps, so that i can take care of my drug habbit as cheap as possible

I noticed that B5 was mentioned to increase the effectiveness of choline. I also saw some other daily things that I already pop: alcar/ala.

So if the stack looked like this, what would it be missing:

Piracetam
ALCAR 2g/day
R-ALA (ratio w/ alcar)
alpha-GPC

how is that for a bare bones stack? Is L-tyrosine required here? What could i add that is cheap and synergistic, or is this going to be worth the $$ as is, assuming that it has an effect on me.

People say that i could be really smart or really stupid, but they're not sure. I have an amazing ability for comprehension but no memory whatsoever. For example, i'm a biochemical engineer and it is second nature to me (because the concepts follow fundamental laws, and we use references), but my toughest subjects are anatomy and such. My best friend from k-12 grades referred to me as the dumbest genius alive, or the smartest idiot ever (i don't remember, of course). either way, i would beat the snot out of him for that. in college i did fine but it was obvious that i was usually lost, didn't know where any class or building was (the day i graduated i could name maybe 1 or 2 buildings). i'd really like to see what i could do with a memory...

[Number 5]

Originally posted by Window Licker
I, too, am interested in where you're finding alcar for $70/kg.

a lot of places sell alcar, the above is a price i saw on one such site, but i don't want to post any links or names since i believe that's against board rules.

Originally posted by stabmaster
So if the stack looked like this, what would it be missing:

Piracetam
ALCAR 2g/day
R-ALA (ratio w/ alcar)
alpha-GPC

how is that for a bare bones stack? Is L-tyrosine required here?

that's a good stack. i personally like vinpocetine a lot, which is fairly cheap about $15 for a month supply - maybe cheaper if you just buy it in raw powder form. also, green tea is cheap and good for overall health so you might as well add that - i just get the bulk powder and drink it with water every now and then.

in my personal experience l-tyrosine is not required - you could try it and see if it adds anything for you though. it's good preworkout and may act as a slight stimulant, but you have to be careful not to overdo things either. if you take too much **** you may overstimulate yourself to the point where you can't concentrate anymore - just keep a good balance.

-5

edit: some people also rave about how rho is synergic with the basic stack above. you could try it - i also did but have not noticed a noticeable effect yet. i'd suggest you start with the basic stack and then just add one component at a time to it if you wish, so you can see if the extras actually add anything for you.

[stabmaster]

yeah i was thinking that l-tyr might be overdoing it. from what i recall it's a seratonin precursor (or some ****). i'm already taking SNRI, SSRI, and dopamine agonist.

and i drink an awful lot of green tea, but the ECGC is not super orally available. my dad has a subscription to these green tea patches which provide transdermally equivalent to like a few hundred cups of green tea per day. i swipe a few per week from him. freebies are always good

oh also- number 5- i appreciate you going to the added effort to email me sicnce apparently you couldn't get me on PM. i don't know what the problem is. my inbox may have been full.

[Number 5]

Originally posted by stabmaster
yeah i was thinking that l-tyr might be overdoing it. from what i recall it's a seratonin precursor (or some ****). i'm already taking SNRI, SSRI, and dopamine agonist.

there was some debate on par's site about whether or not it's safe to combine rhodiola with SSRI drugs, so maybe you should be careful with that.

http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=41&t=8161&

in general, it's always a good idea for everyone who wants to take these supps to check that they have no adverse interactions with any meds they take.

-5

[Jen_Ess]

Originally posted by KillerATP

as for piracetam it may restores the availability and function of muscarinic and NMDA receptors, most probably through a modulation of the psychico-chemical properties of the neuronal membrane such as the membrane fluidity.

By "membrane fluidity," would you mean something to do with flow of ions or charges through the membrane (probably more easily) therby leading to depolarization? I am a little confused about exactly what is meant here.

I know that some newer drugs work in one of two ways- either by amplifying AMPA receptor's response to glutamate and thus facilitating depolarization or by increasing CREB by inhibiting enzymes that degrade cyclic AMP

[dsade]

Can anyone compare the effects of substituting Aniracetam with Piracetam?

I know it's much more expensive, so I wonder if it is worth it?

I haven't done too much research into the mechanism comparison between the two. I imagine since they are both pyrrilidinone derivatives, that they work similarly?

[sixabs]

Maybe I can use it to help with lifting and to improve my SAT scores. I really need help on the second one more.

[KillerATP]

Originally posted by dsade
Can anyone compare the effects of substituting Aniracetam with Piracetam?

I know it's much more expensive, so I wonder if it is worth it?

I haven't done too much research into the mechanism comparison between the two. I imagine since they are both pyrrilidinone derivatives, that they work similarly?

Correct, however piracetam is a bit faster acting. Aniracetam effects may be noticed after 60 days of use, becoming more pronounced after 4 months.

Again PRAM IS THE WINNER.

[shpongled]

Originally posted by KillerATP
I wonder who brought piracetam in the the bodybuilding realm?

Some moron, no doubt.

[shpongled]

Originally posted by KillerATP
Correct, however piracetam is a bit faster acting. Aniracetam effects may be noticed after 60 days of use, becoming more pronounced after 4 months.

You have no clue what you are talking about

[KillerATP]

3) Be respectful of the other members. Racism, bigotry & sexism will not be tolerated. We do allow frank discussion with the other members, and like to have a laugh, but some things are not appropriate. In the supplements forum, we are here to discussion nutritional and sports supplements. This is not the place to discuss politics, sex or religion. Repeatedly flaming, insulting and attempting to cause fights with other members will not be allowed and can result in a ban. Please be respectful to the board, the members and moderators. We are all here to learn and teach others what we know. There is a misc and a sex forum for off topic posts and topics unrelated to supplements. If you have a problem with another board member, please PM a moderator about it.

[shpongled]

Originally posted by dsade
Can anyone compare the effects of substituting Aniracetam with Piracetam?

I know it's much more expensive, so I wonder if it is worth it?

I haven't done too much research into the mechanism comparison between the two. I imagine since they are both pyrrilidinone derivatives, that they work similarly?

As far as I know they have similar mechanisms but aniracetam will concentrate in different areas and it has a shorter half-life. It also has some additional effects, related to AMPA modulation. It definitely has a more pronounced effect than piracetam. I am working on an article on this, I should have it done within a week or two, hopefully in time for the next M+M.

[KillerATP]

uh oh the avant gang lol

[shpongled]

Originally posted by KillerATP
3) Be respectful of the other members. Racism, bigotry & sexism will not be tolerated. We do allow frank discussion with the other members, and like to have a laugh, but some things are not appropriate. In the supplements forum, we are here to discussion nutritional and sports supplements. This is not the place to discuss politics, sex or religion. Repeatedly flaming, insulting and attempting to cause fights with other members will not be allowed and can result in a ban. Please be respectful to the board, the members and moderators. We are all here to learn and teach others what we know. There is a misc and a sex forum for off topic posts and topics unrelated to supplements. If you have a problem with another board member, please PM a moderator about it.

Duly noted, but I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about BrooklynJuice. That guy is a complete retard. So no insult towards you was intended.

[KillerATP]

regardless who its for it is plainly spelt out for ANYBODY

[KillerATP]

Aniracetam
CHEMICAL FORMULA C12H13NO3



Aniracetam is a nootropic, developed by Roche Pharmaceutical, which acts on the central nervous system (CNS). It has a reputation for increasing intellectual activity, improving immune function, increasing resistance to infection, and generating feelings of health and well-being, particularly in the elderly. The recommended aniracetam dosage is usually 1500 mg per day, taken in two 750 mg doses, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. It is sold in both tablet and powder form, generally of 750 mg each. Some users experience insomnia from an afternoon dose of Aniracetam. These users may find it better to take both daily doses in the morning rather than taking the second dose after noon. Any usual side-effects should be discussed with your doctor.


NAME : Piracetam
CHEMICAL FORMULA C6H10N2O2

Piracetam is similar in molecular structure to the amino acid pyroglutamate. Piracetam and pyroglutamate have the same base chemical structure, the 2-oxo-pyrrolidine, but they differ by a side chain. Pyroglutamate is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine carboxylic acid, and piracetam is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine acetamide.

[shpongled]

Sorry, I know this is pretty O/T, I disagree with a lot of this

Originally posted by RippedUp
1. What are they and where do they come from?

DMAE - Dimethylaminoethanol - is an antioxidant and a precursor of the neurotransmitter Acetycholine (ACh).

DMAE is not a direct acetylcholine precursor, but it is a choline precursor. There is a major difference, because supplementation with DMAE, as is the case with choline supplementation, will not increase acetylcholine levels. In most cases, the amount of choline is not rate-limiting for acetylcholine production.

Acetycholine is responsible for feelings of well-being and relaxation. It plays an important role in the onset of a dreaming state. DMAE is available in supplement form. It can be consumed orally, or used as a cream topically.

Not exactly, too much acetylcholine is associated with muscle tension and depression

2. What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?

Although the science has not yet reached a conclusive, supportable, position on the exact function(s) of DMAE, anecdotal evidence suggests that DMAE supplementation is very beneficial. For example, anecdotal evidence indicates that DMAE may be appropriate for cosmetic purposes, due to its ability to reduce facial sag. DMAE may be helpful in improving memory and learning ability.

"Anecdotal evidence" also suggests that big foot, the lochness monster, and people with telekinetic powers exist. In other words, "anecdotal evidence" means pretty much nothing.

DMAE supplementation has been known to increase energy levels, as well as alleviate the symptoms typically following the consumption of large quantities of alcohol. Supplementing with DMAE can also offset the symptoms associated with long-term use of antipsychotic drugs.1 It may also have positive benefits for dreaming and mood stabilization.2,3

Note that reference 2 is from Med Hypothesis, pretty much the worst journal in existence. Reference 3 is not a quality journal either, and the "DMAE formula" contained many other ingredients, so there is no way to tell if the effect was due to DMAE or another ingredient. However, you can't really blame the writer of the article, as he did use the operative term "may."

Regarding tardive dyskinesia (the "symptoms of antipsychotic drugs" being referred to), after the initial open studies, it was quickly realized in placebo-controlled studies that DMAE did not have an effect, and may even worsen the condition.

3. Who needs it and what are some symptoms of deficiency?

There are no known symptoms of deficiency. Everyone can benefit from supplementing with DMAE. Populations that may benefit most from the supplementation of DMAE include: The Elderly, Athletes, persons on antipsychotic medication, children suffering from down syndrome and attention deficit disorder (ADD), and individuals who wish to use DMAE for its cosmetic applications.

Elderly persons are at an increased risk of developing depression. The onset of depression in elderly populations can be caused by a number of factors. DMAE can help alleviate or prevent symptoms of depression because of its ability to stabilize emotions and increase energy.

Increased energy levels are something that athletes require. High-intensity physical activity is very demanding. By supplementing with DMAE, athletes may notice shorter recovery times and improved athletic performance. DMAE also plays a role in muscle contractions (by being a precursor to ACh).4

Person suffering from psychiatric conditions, children with attention deficit disorder and persons with down syndrome, may find that, due to its ability to stabilize moods and improve behavior, DMAE is a worthwhile substance to add to their treatment programs.

No references, and no evidence is given for any of this - none of these claims are supported

4. How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?

DMAE is non-toxic and is safe for human use.

Now this is just wrong. Here is a section from an article I wrote on this

Numerous side effects from DMAE treatment have been reported in the literature. These include gastrointestinal disturbances, bad body odor, drowsiness, sedation, retardation, confusion, increased blood pressure, depression, and hypomania; some of these are causes of frequent withdrawal [20, 31-33]. Airborne DMAE is associated with a variety of adverse events (some of which have been reported in humans exposed to high concentrations in a label printing plant), primarily visual disturbances (blurry, halo, and blue-grey vision, corneal opacity, and decrements in visual acuity and contrast sensitivity) and skin irritation [34-36]. However, it is doubtful that oral supplementation will lead to these effects. DMAE also has potential teratogenic effects due to the fact that it inhibits choline uptake [10]. In one study, rat pups fed a choline-deficient diet containing DMAE died within 36 hours of birth [37].

[shpongled]

Originally posted by KillerATP
Aniracetam
CHEMICAL FORMULA C12H13NO3



Aniracetam is a nootropic, developed by Roche Pharmaceutical, which acts on the central nervous system (CNS). It has a reputation for increasing intellectual activity, improving immune function, increasing resistance to infection, and generating feelings of health and well-being, particularly in the elderly. The recommended aniracetam dosage is usually 1500 mg per day, taken in two 750 mg doses, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. It is sold in both tablet and powder form, generally of 750 mg each. Some users experience insomnia from an afternoon dose of Aniracetam. These users may find it better to take both daily doses in the morning rather than taking the second dose after noon. Any usual side-effects should be discussed with your doctor.


NAME : Piracetam
CHEMICAL FORMULA C6H10N2O2

Piracetam is similar in molecular structure to the amino acid pyroglutamate. Piracetam and pyroglutamate have the same base chemical structure, the 2-oxo-pyrrolidine, but they differ by a side chain. Pyroglutamate is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine carboxylic acid, and piracetam is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine acetamide.

I am in awe of your copy and paste skills

[KillerATP]

Sorry dont know how or see the quote botton?

Aniracetam is an analogue of piracetam, it can improve memory recall, reaction and detail. Like all of piracetam's analogues less aniracetam is required, (i.e. milligram dose to Kilogram body weight). But like piracetam, aniracetam has been found to be virtually non-toxic, with very few side effects and contraindications.

In tests, aniracetam has proven to be one of the most potent nootropics currently available, this is because of its ability to protect AMPA brain receptors and nerve cells.


http:www.imminst.org/forum/index.php...T&f=6&t=237&s=

[KillerATP]

Piracetam is similar in molecular structure to the amino acid pyroglutamate. Piracetam and pyroglutamate have the same base chemical structure, the 2-oxo-pyrrolidine, but they differ by a side chain. Pyroglutamate is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine carboxylic acid, and piracetam is 2-oxo-pyrrolidine acetamide.

Basically, Piracetam is Pyroglutamate analog, which is side-product of
Glutahtione synthetic pathway. Glutamate is a neurotransmitter, but in
overdose it's a horribly toxic one. In brain injury from seizures and
hypoxia it's probably the neurotranmitter most responsible for neuronal
death (glutamate sensitive channels let too much calcium into neurons,
which wrecks their mitochondria). Not something I personally would
fool with too much, for too long.

Also Piracetam is contraindicated in patients with kidney problems.(Creatinine
clearance <20ml/min)
In one case, concomitant use with t3 and t4 thyroid hormones has caused
confusion, irritability, and hearing problems.

Stay away from alcohol with it too.

And yes the LD50 is higher than that of Nacl. So in that sense PIR is safer than salt.


BUT STILL I think its best to "cycle" it.

[shpongled]

Originally posted by KillerATP
Correct, however piracetam is a bit faster acting. Aniracetam effects may be noticed after 60 days of use, becoming more pronounced after 4 months.

Again PRAM IS THE WINNER.

"Effects may be noticed after 60 days of use, becoming more pronounced after 4 months."
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/anirace...m_basics.shtml

Do you ever say anything that isn't just ripped from somewhere else?

[axiombiological]

The racetams are becoming very economical and available. Piracetam's major drawback is its high dose, whereas the various racetams -aniracetam, oxiracetam, pramiracetam, etc. -do not require such high amounts.

[axiombiological]

Originally posted by shpongled
As far as I know they have similar mechanisms but aniracetam will concentrate in different areas and it has a shorter half-life. It also has some additional effects, related to AMPA modulation. It definitely has a more pronounced effect than piracetam. I am working on an article on this, I should have it done within a week or two, hopefully in time for the next M+M.

Aniracetam has metabolites which are active, such as 2-pyrrolidinone and N-anisoyl-GABA.

[roboto]

about how many mgs of Piracetam would fit in a 00 cap if i capped it myself?

[American Hunk]

Originally posted by roboto
about how many mgs of Piracetam would fit in a 00 cap if i capped it myself?

about 800mg. take 4/day.

[BLiSS420]

Does anyone know how to look up the legalities involved in substances for use in Canada? I've looked everywhere but it doesn't seem like the Canadian govt wants us to know what we can and cannot possess.

[ulter]

Neurogenex has 400mg of piracetim per cap plus Galatamine and several other nootropics in a ready made cap. It's considerably more effective than Piracetim alone.

Piracetim is not allowed in CN.
Neurogenex is sold by organic-health.com in BC.

[BLiSS420]

booo canadian government