Delimna, more or less calories to loose BF%

[Utah Rod]

Hello everyone,
I know there are probably many posts on the header subject but i havent found any yet to answer my specific question.

WHY CANT I GET MY BODY FAT% TO GO ANY LOWER? (read the details before replying please)
Some specifics. (a bit long winded but more detail means better understanding of a situation)
I'm Male, 42, 6'1", currently 186 lbs. Used to have a very high metabolism but its slowing down the las 5 years or so.
1 year ago I weighed 215. I stopped drinking soda and eating a whopper 3-4 times a week for lunch.(man, i miss my Mt.Dew and whoppers!) By 9-17-06 I was down to 195lbs. working out at the gym 4 days a week. #1Back/ Bi's- #2 Chest/Tri's - #3 Calves/shoulders - #4 Legs.
Injury stopped me going to gym from Sept 1st to around MArch 24th. (almost 8 months)
Once my shoulder started getting to where I thought i could get back to the gym I started preparing for that. I did a cleanse about 1 week+ before I started back at the gym.
The cleanse: (each day includes Lower bowel cleanse capsules from health food store)
Day1- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day.
Day2- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.
Day3- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.
Day4- TONS of water, 3 stalks of celery and a bowl of oatmeal for lunch, Liver cleanse from this web site- www.breathing.com (I only did the liver cleanse part, not the parisites and othewr stuff)
DAy6- TONS of water, total of 16oz or so of fresh apple juice during the day, 12oz V8 for supper.

I was planning to do the cleanse for 10 days. I weighed 197 the day I started the cleanse. I had been weighing myself each weekday once I got to work and was loosing 3 lbs EVERY day and on Monday morning (no scale since friday)of day 7 I weighed myself and was down to 179 lbs. I'd lost 18 lbs in 6 days. I figured if i kept going for 4 more days I'd be down to around 167 and that was way too low. I started eating a bit of vegetables on that day and slowly worked back up to regular meals over the next 2 days.
The problem with the 18 lbs I lost was that a BIG chunk of it was muscle. So I was happy with the extra fluff I'd lost but not with the muscle, of course. I started back to the gym 5- 6 weeks ago and im getting the muscle back. I'm right now back up to 186lbs. My muscles arent back to where they used to be yet but I have alot more definition that i had earlier. You can at least see my top two pairs of ab muscles.
I also started eating MUCH better than before. NO junk food, and watching ingredients of the food I eat MUCH closer. I found this website - www.fitover40.com and from it was pointed to a book called "The Abs Diet" (its not really a diet book, its more of a lifestyle change when it comes to eating.)
So, now I'm watching what I eat MUCh closer, working out at the Gym 4 days a week. I still have a some fluff around my abs though that I JUST CANT GET RID OF.
I bought a Body fat/ Total Body Water/ Scale to keep track of my progress.
It tells me now that I'm still around 21% BF w/ 58% Total body water. Its did say once that I was at 15.6% BF at 68.8% TBW but at 58% TBW, which is what it usualy reads, I'm around 21% BF.
I watch my Protein and try to get close to 200g per day. I try not to eat HIGH carbs foods with high GI index's.


I havent been watching my calories, but I did yesterday I tracked my calories and at 192g of protein I only had around 1600 calories. So, I'd say I'm probable averaging 1500- 2000 calories a day. At 6'1" and 186 lbs my scale says I should be getitng around 3560 calories a day to maintain that weight. I'm seem to be barely getting half that and the fluff around my waist isnt getting ANY smaller it seems. I'm gaining muscle and weight (of course) but not loosing any more body fat.
Typical day now.
5:30am-12oz skim milk w/ Protein powder
6:00 gym
7:30 Home from gym, oatmeal & protein shake
10:30 yogurt & 12 almonds
12:00 1-2 6oz cans of tuna w/ mustard or if i go out to lunch weggies and grilled chicken
2:30 2 tbsp of fresh ground peanut butter from the health food store - no additives (i gring it there myself)
5:00-6:00 supper lean meat and veggies most nights, brownm rice, etc
9:00 protein shake or some other small snack, no candies or treats of any kind.

Sorry for the long winded background info leading up to this question.

WHY CANT I GET MY BODY FAT% TO GO ANY LOWER? Without doing another cleanse and loosing a bunch of muscle again.

Is it because I'm NOT getting enough calories? I know it seems backwards but is that my problem?
Do I need to start getting more calories? AND, if so, how do i double my calories without eating a bunch of high calorie, less healthy (High GI index, high fructose corn syrup, saturated and trans fat) foods, etc.?

Thanks for your time to ANYONE with the fortitude to read this whole post,
Rodney

[EYE FOR DETAIL]

cardio,cardio,and more cardio

[Utah Rod]

But if I start doing a bunch of cardio and not getting more calories, wont I start burning up muscle?

[gfundaro]

But if I start doing a bunch of cardio and not getting more calories, wont I start burning up muscle?

Try eating the calories you need for the day rather than the week. My calories look like this (they're low b/c I'm little and pre-competition):
Off-Day: 1500
Lifting Only: 1600
Lifting + 30 Min Cardio: 1700
Lifting + 60 Min Cardio: 1800

I change my calories each day for what I'm doing. It seems to be working really well. Also, you do need to be tracking your calories and watching your macros; for many people, the body is made in the kitchen, not the gym. If you're eating too few calories (which you were doing) your metabolism will slow and your body will cling to every bit of fat that it can. Change your workout routine often; I change every 3-4 weeks. It's important to continuously shock your body so it doesn't get comfortable; once your body adapts, you will get less out of what you put into your workouts.

[Utah Rod]

Thanks for the advice Gfundaro.

I DO need to start tracking my calories. I've seem mention of macro-nutrients in other posts but have no real knowledge of what are considered macro-nutrients or how much I should be getting. Any advice or links to a better explanation on the subject would be greatly appreciated. ALso, I would LOVE to find a nice downloadable calorie calc/ wather to help me keep track of my daily intake.
Currently, I am using (EAS 100% Whey Protein), Glutamine (in the protein shake, Creatine (which I try to take seperate and at least 30 minutes away from the protein shake or meals. I also drink it with Grape juice if possible because I read somewhere it gets absorbed better that way.), and a one a day Multi-vitamin. The protein powder contains 18 amino acids = 5270mg total.
Thats pretty much it for supplements because I'm on a VERY tight budget.
I just noticed also while lookin gat the protein powder container, that it is a protein BLEND (whey protein concentrate & whey protein Isolate). I should be using 100% Whey protein Isolate for best results correct?

How do I determine how many cal/day I should be getting? I'm sure there must be a good formula somewhere.
Then, once I determine the amout of cal/ macros i should be getting, how do I increase my intake dramaticaly without eating JUNK?

[ScottC]

Here is a link to an excellent calculator which was created by Short One here on bb.com. The host server can be a bit fluky sometimes, but it is a great calc. The weight/height defaults are set in metric, so watch it while inputting numbers. On page two you will have the option to set macro ratios, too, for final computation. Keep the default set to a percentage off your maintanenece rather than a straight caloric number. It is a better way to get your cals for fat loss, imo.

http://yianni.users.mcs2.netarray.co...WebApp/bmr.jsp

I use ON 100% Gold Standard Whey, it is a blend but mostly isolates in the blend...but there are other wheys available for more money.

FitDay has software available for download, but I don't know the price. Most people who use it use the free online site. Info on the homepage:
http://www.fitday.com/

To add calories, depending on how much you need to increase, add a couple hundred a day. This is easily accomplished by increasing portion size of the healthy foods you eat. Actually creating a meal plan first makes this easier to do.

btw- Off Topic: I do not mean to generalize, but after seeing your name I have to ask, are you LDS?

[Utah Rod]

ScottC-
Thanks for the Information. I'll check out the calc's as soon as I get break here at work.


And to answer your question. Yes

[Hates_]

Is it because I'm NOT getting enough calories? I know it seems backwards but is that my problem?
Do I need to start getting more calories? AND, if so, how do i double my calories without eating a bunch of high calorie, less healthy (High GI index, high fructose corn syrup, saturated and trans fat) foods, etc.?

Personally I think it is because you haven't been eating enough. You've sent your body the message that food is scarce and your metabolism has taken a nose dive.

If you split your calories marcos up you wont have any problem getting enough calories. You probably just need to introduce more fats into your diet. I'm currently getting 30% of my calories from fats which is 700 calories out of my daily ~2200-2300 allowance.

[Utah Rod]

Thanks Hates_

I'm finding out that my biggest problem seems to be my ignorance about diet/ bodybuilding. I've been trying to stay away from any fat and very low carbs. Seems I'm going about it all wrong. I was just so afraid of gaining back the lost fat I didnt want to eat anything that would cause that.
I am possitive now that I need more calories. I now need to figure out how to get those without eating unhealthy foods. And cal/ by carbs%?/fat%?/prot%?

Looks like my main goal right now is to figure out my diet, then start working on perfexting my exercise routine to compliment it.

Any help in that area ... or any other advice is greatly appreciated.

[Khemist]

Thanks Hates_

I'm finding out that my biggest problem seems to be my ignorance about diet/ bodybuilding. I've been trying to stay away from any fat and very low carbs. Seems I'm going about it all wrong. I was just so afraid of gaining back the lost fat I didnt want to eat anything that would cause that.
I am possitive now that I need more calories. I now need to figure out how to get those without eating unhealthy foods. And cal/ by carbs%?/fat%?/prot%?

Looks like my main goal right now is to figure out my diet, then start working on perfexting my exercise routine to compliment it.

Any help in that area ... or any other advice is greatly appreciated.

Also avoid combining fats with carbs in your meals, the insulin spike will add the fat to your cells. It worked for me to keep them seperate.

[Hates_]

I'm finding out that my biggest problem seems to be my ignorance about diet/ bodybuilding. I've been trying to stay away from any fat and very low carbs. Seems I'm going about it all wrong. I was just so afraid of gaining back the lost fat I didnt want to eat anything that would cause that.
I am possitive now that I need more calories. I now need to figure out how to get those without eating unhealthy foods. And cal/ by carbs%?/fat%?/prot%?

Sadly it's a common myth that eating fat makes you fat Your body needs fats for a lot of it's daily functions. I'm personally on a 40%P/30%F/30%C split but I'm trying carb cycling at the moment. You can always just go for a 33/33/33 split and see how you get on, then after 2-3 weeks adjust as you see fit.

[aiming45]

Just a quick note about your diet above. You are consuming Almonds and Peanut Butter daily. You may want to select one or the other per day not both. You are probably getting enough fats from other sources, including fish oil supps, etc.

Another tweak I'm trying new this week is cutting carbs out of the evening meals. I'd move the Brown Rice or other complex carbs earlier in the day and swap them out for green fibrous veggies only with dinner. Been researching what older "Natural" bodybuilders do and those two suggestions seem pretty common place.

The older we get It seems the less carbs we can get away with! : )

BTW - I haven't run across any take home scale that is even remotely accurate when it comes to Body Fat % or any sort of body comp analysis so I wouldn't sweat those readings too hard.

Joseph

[Utah Rod]

Khemist & Hates_-
Thanks for the info. Now I just need to figure out how to keep them seperate. Looks like i need to spend A LOT more time on my diet.


Aiming45-
"I'm trying new this week is cutting carbs out of the evening meals."
How late is the latest you want o be eating carbs? supper is around 6:30 for me and I do eat brown rice alot for the healthy carbs at that time. after that I dont eat much carbs. Thats one reason I drink a protein shake at night,, to stay away from carbs and fat before bed. Is that ok?

"BTW - I haven't run across any take home scale that is even remotely accurate when it comes to Body Fat % or any sort of body comp analysis so I wouldn't sweat those readings too hard."
I hear you. I got this scale because it was reported to be a good one. I'll post some pics hopefully tonight and you guys can tell me if you think the scale is redin correctly at around 20% BF or if I need to use it in athletic mode which reads around 15% for me. Im more worried about how I look than what the scale reads though. and if the BF% starts going down I'll be happy even if the reading isnt exactly right.

Thanks again for everyones help and advice here. I do apprecitate it a lot.

[ScottC]

I'm finding out that my biggest problem seems to be my ignorance about diet/ bodybuilding. I've been trying to stay away from any fat and very low carbs. Seems I'm going about it all wrong. I was just so afraid of gaining back the lost fat I didnt want to eat anything that would cause that.
I am possitive now that I need more calories. I now need to figure out how to get those without eating unhealthy foods. And cal/ by carbs%?/fat%?/prot%?

Looks like my main goal right now is to figure out my diet, then start working on perfexting my exercise routine to compliment it.

Any help in that area ... or any other advice is greatly appreciated.

Using the calculator I linked you to will be a good start in setting up calories/ macros. You can PM me with any issues with it. Keep an eye on your PM's as later I will be shooting you some suggestions.

..as for me Spring Lake Ward, Grand Rapids, Michigan Stake.

[Hates_]

How late is the latest you want o be eating carbs? supper is around 6:30 for me and I do eat brown rice alot for the healthy carbs at that time. after that I dont eat much carbs. Thats one reason I drink a protein shake at night,, to stay away from carbs and fat before bed. Is that ok?

Me personally, I get 90% of my carbs before 12pm as I workout first thing in the morning. After that it's just carbs I can't specifically avoid and from boiled veggies.

Getting some fat with your night time protein shake is actually good as it will slow the digestion and keep your body fueled throughout the night

[TDetroit]

If you do too much cardio, you will lengthen your muscles and and look stringy.
If you cut calories, you will eat up muscle to reduce the energy load.

The answer is:
1. Eat clean. All the good food. Many articles on this. Use fitday.com to track, even make it your website on bb.com so all of your friends can take alook and help out.
2. Eat 5-6 small meals per day. With the last or second to last being your best.
3. Do not eat within 2:30 to 3:00 hours before bed.
4. Eat to gain weight (keep reading)
5. a. Lift at max 2-3 times per week to build muscle
b. Cardio at a pace that makes you sweat, makes your heart go, but does not (very important) cause you to collapse. (I am 39 and aim for a heart rate of 125-128.
c. Wind sprints 400-500 yards (one session) per week, broken down to 30-50 yards intervals, or interval on the treadmill, or fast then slow repeat on a cycle.

The idea for you is in the first line of your description of yourself. 6'2" 185 lbs. You need to gain lean weight. Build up to 205 lbs., this will build up your metabolism because muscle is calorie expensive. Eat more often to build up metabolism (constantly digesting and training body to expect another meal).

More lean muscle, no additional fat weight = lower BF%

[Bronkko]

the body is made in the kitchen, not the gym.

nice saying.

[Utah Rod]

Ok here are some pics from this morning. I'll try to get some better ones soon.

After taking a look at these pics I'm pretty sure that the 21% reading I get is more acurate than the 15%.

[TDetroit]

There's a big problem to the equasion.
Get rid of the scale.

Scales measure body fat wrong. they are easy but inaccurate.

Buy a caliper. After you learn to use it, it will give very accurate readings. Get it right here at the bb.com store, cheapest place around.

[ScottC]

Sorry for the delay. Check your PM's, Utah Rod.


I concur with TDetroit, get rid of the BF scale, or just use the scale portion.

If you opt for calipers, here is an excellent article which dscusses how to measure, complete with video. Shows the calipers bb.com sells with links to purchase, if interested.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson98.htm