I would like to know more about KETO

**The Conqueror** · 04-10-2002, 06:04 AM

Could someone lay out the basic thinking, rules and approach to the keto method. I'm interested.

**Dorian** · 04-10-2002, 06:56 AM

In a few days time thee will be a article up explaining most of what you are asking for. There will be 2-3 more about Keto following. So either use the search engine for the forum or hang loose for more articles on the ubject.

**fitnessman** · 04-10-2002, 04:06 PM

Bob, I have to send you more info....But you know my usual story, work, kids, blah, blah, blah......

**shaun** · 04-13-2002, 01:09 AM

55% to 75% of cals from fat.the rest from protein. and keep it mostly to clean fats

**fitnessman** · 04-13-2002, 07:44 AM

75% is way to high! 50-60% is proper.

In my clients, I still add plenty of protein to allow for muscle repair. 75% would not allow for this at 10 cals per pound.

**shaun** · 04-13-2002, 08:26 AM

hey fitnessman, i got to ask you something. since you probably have experience in both high protein and keto, can you tell me why you think keto is better?

**fitnessman** · 04-13-2002, 10:02 AM

High protien low carb is for fat people sitting behind a desk, not for a bodybuilder. On this type of diet 58% of protein is converted to glucose, so it really turns out more to be a low calorie diet than a metabolism shifting one.

A ketogenic(high fat diet, not 75% though) is for bodybuilders. If done properly it allows a full metabolism shift to a fat for fuel one with little or very little protein conversion to glucose. The body will use free form fatty acids for fuel and energy levels will increase in most. An area of great debate is the fact that many nutritionist are just now coming to grips with the fact that fat is actually the preferred source of fuel in the body(including the brain especialy) and not glucose. This really gets the old school nutritionist flaming...But more and more evidence is showing this to be fact.

The biggest problem I run across with keto diets I write is the ratio's are different for everyone. It takes alot of effort and tweeking to monitor progress. I live pretty much year round on a keto, its easy for me due to the fact I have been doing it so long.

My diets are "lower carb" carbs need to used to our advantage not against us.

Thanks for asking!

**plornive** · 04-13-2002, 10:47 AM

Hey fitnessman,
I know I have been anti-keto in the past, but I have a question for you. What do you think of targetted ketogenic diets? What about the combination of a targetted ketogenic diet and a cyclical one? And if someone does a TKD, when do you usually have them eat carbs, and how many (I reallize everyone is different)? Thanks. Believe me, I think keto diets work, I just have a personal bias against them and you are right about them.

**fitnessman** · 04-13-2002, 11:13 AM

You have to remember alot of people are riding the "keto wave". You know, hey I can make some money off this thing.

Ckd, tkd, and others are just variations. I look at Ketogenic dieting as a lifestlye for myself.

For myself, Wed. I have a carb meal 2 hrs after training(mid week carb spike) and load for 36hrs on weekends. I am pretty good size and the mid week really helps me.

Most I have on a keto diet I only allow then the weekend carbs load. I dont need the money from my nutrition biz. so if someone I train does not listen they are removed from my program. I dont have time to babysit.

ALL!! Get a post training shake with carbs. These are medium to advanced bodybuilders.

I am in no way flaming ckd's and alike, alot of info out there is just old stuff with a new spin on it.

I am rambling again.....must be the carbs

**shaun** · 04-13-2002, 08:22 PM

if you are on keto, wont it be harder for you to grow as compared to someone with a higher carb diet. i believe this is due to the fact that since your muscles have less carbs, less water is stored and thus protein synthesis is minimized. what do you think?

another question that i have is that on keto, i know your body survives on fat and cholestrol, but i was also wondering if this is really true. since you've been on the diet for so long, can you tell me if your health is top notch? keto doesn't worsen it right?

**shaun** · 04-13-2002, 08:29 PM

one more thing i forgot to ask. wont going on high protein and taking glutamine give you the same results as keto. in both cases you'll just be burning fat right?

**fitnessman** · 04-14-2002, 12:24 PM

Most people who have done their homework find themselves gaining muscle on a keto. For many its the first time they have really has proper nutrition in their body.

I find that the muscle gained on a keto is a very dense, stronger type of fiber. Strength increase can be common in some. I just got a PM from someone who couldnt understand why they were getting stronger(I love hearing stuff like that).

My health and my families health is outstanding! I do not restrict carbs in house, I just keep smart ones around for them to eat. Alot of people just dont understand the theroy. Its NOT just meat and cheese, god that would drive anyone insane. I focus my carbs sources on low GI fibrous veggies and low gi fruits(yes I said fruits). I eat straw berries, cantalope, honey dew just small quanities. Zuccinni, summer squash, spinach, brussel sprouts, certain pepers, loads of lettuce, ect. ect. ect. The macro nutrients in these are very much needed in the diet.

if I feel I need more muscle(pretty happy with my size) I can eat 100g carbs a day and still remain in a MILD state of ketosis. Cutting as I am now 50g a day. Not counting post work out shakes.

The main reason some have had bad times with a keto is the crash cutting thing. We have all been there, but this is the worst time to try a keto IMO.

For me its a life style. I feel better when my body uses fat for fuel. I do take breaks from the diet for vacations and such, but overall its a year round thing.

Over the winter I did some research with a Dr. at the university I work at on glucose intollerance in weight training athletes. He has been working on it for 3 years and soon as it is published I will post it here. Quite interesting!

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 04-14-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by shaun

another question that i have is that on keto, i know your body survives on fat and cholestrol, but i was also wondering if this is really true. since you've been on the diet for so long, can you tell me if your health is top notch? keto doesn't worsen it right?

The absense of carbs when using ketogenic doesn't subject people to the same kind of health conditions as someone who is taking in carbs AND fats (traditional eating). You have to remember that when one is on a keto diet, the body is using those ingested fats for fuel. In addition, you might be surprised to hear that fats are actually the preferred source of fuel for the body... many people, including myself, find less digestive problems and more energy when using a ketogenic diet.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 04-14-2002, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by shaun
one more thing i forgot to ask. wont going on high protein and taking glutamine give you the same results as keto. in both cases you'll just be burning fat right?

This is the biggest misconception about the keto diet. Whenever I try to explain it to anyone, they say "Oh, your on the protein diet". I say no... Here is what needs to be explained. Protein is generally, a crap source of fuel for the body. On a high protein diet, we will assume that there is some soft of lack of carbs. This would only make sense as we are going for fat loss here, and the body will never burn fat with an excess of carbohydrates. Ok -- if this part makes sense, keep following me.... Most people on high protein also keep their fats real low. So what now? We have taken away carbs for fuel, taken away fats for fuel...It should go after stored fat right? NOPE -the body is going to munch away at that ingested and stored protein (Read: that hard earned muscle). Why you ask? The body generally is very responsive to stimulus, and while it might make sense that it would seek stored fat, it doesn't. If you give your body an excess of something, it will then seek that out in the future.... this is part of how the keto diet works...when ingesting fat and converting fat to the main source of fuel in the body, it will be more likely to seek out stored fat in the future when looking for fuel.... just like with fats, if you give your body protein and no other fats or carbs, it will have no choice but to seek out the protein and muscle as you will be forcing it to use protein as a fuel source. Low carb, low fat - high protein diets are not for bodybuilders.... hell, they shouldnt be for anyone...

**shaun** · 04-15-2002, 05:26 AM

fitnessman:

i need to ask you a question. besides the fact that fat is a better source for fuel than carbs, wont going on high protein and taking glutamine give you the same results as keto. in both cases you'll just be burning fat right?

**fitnessman** · 04-15-2002, 05:49 AM

No, If just consuming large amouts of protein without the proper amount of fat the protien will be convereted to glucouse, thus putting you in a state of protein for fuel. Thats a bad thing.

The body does not care for resorting to stored fat for fuel. By keeping the fat intake high and carbs lower the metabolism will shift to a fat for fuel one. Then it makes it pretty easy for the body to dive into the fat stores because the body finds the fat to be a good fuel source. With all the dietary fat the body does not feel like it is starving so is more willing to release fat stores.

If that makes any sense at all

**Original Poster** · 04-15-2002, 09:03 AM

Great thread with a ton of keto info.

Sticky Material ????

I say yes.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 04-15-2002, 09:09 AM

I guess my post wasn't good enough for shaun......

**shaun** · 04-16-2002, 03:48 AM

it was, but u didn't answer my seoncd question.

anyway, fitnessman:

if you are in keto, does that mean u dont use protein AT ALL for fuel?

if u are on high protein diet, and you take alot of protein, not all will be used for fuel right?

what is the diff btw being in ketosis and doing a ketosis diet but never reaching keto?

**shaun** · 04-16-2002, 03:51 AM

sorry fitnessman, one more question:

does it matter whether you get your fat from saturated or unsaturated fat when you are on keto?

**fitnessman** · 04-16-2002, 04:27 AM

There is some protein conversion on a high fat diet, but no where near as much on a protein diet.

If you are on a ketogenic diet and not reaching ketosis, somethings not right with the ratio's

I all recommend all fats as long as you dont have a problem metabolizing fats, some do but not many. If that is the case keep the fats a little cleaner.

**shaun** · 04-16-2002, 05:13 AM

how would you know if you have a problem metabolising fats?

if your on keto, you'll have to burn body fat and dietary fat right? then wont that make fat loss slow?

**fitnessman** · 04-16-2002, 05:21 AM

In rare cases some people have a problem metabolizing fats, again not many. Signs of that would be cramping, and severe runs. I have not seen this in my clients yet, but I have heard a of few here.

You are in a glycogen deprived state on a keto. Dietary fat will not be stored but used for energy. Once that is used the will use stored fat for fuel. Excess dietary fat will be elminated.

This is why the diet is popular for people wishing to cut. It is the fastest and most muscle sparing of cutting diets.

**HDSpeedwild** · 04-16-2002, 03:12 PM

Since Keto uses high fat and fat = 9 calories per gram, are you actually eating less? Do you stay full just as long or longer as if you were on a 40/20/40 carb/fat/protien diet?
What foods are good to eat? Is there a comprehensive list of food available?

**fitnessman** · 04-16-2002, 04:29 PM

No you are not eating less. Say you are 200lbs, and want to cut at 10 cals per pound. 2000 calories are 2000 calories so its a myth you would be eating less.

Fat keeps you fuller longer.

Many books out there on it, just need to tweek a tad for the bodybuilder.

**furmanranger** · 04-16-2002, 05:31 PM

fitnessman, do you recommend any book for learning about keto dieting?

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 04-16-2002, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by fitnessman
No you are not eating less. Say you are 200lbs, and want to cut at 10 cals per pound. 2000 calories are 2000 calories so its a myth you would be eating less.

Fat keeps you fuller longer.

Many books out there on it, just need to tweek a tad for the bodybuilder.

In a sense, you would be eating less gram for gram. If your diet consisted ONLY of fat, you would eat less grams of fat while reaching your daily intake then you would eating grams of carbs. This obviously is not how the diet works.
Either way, that is a hard question to answer I think. Eating less is a relative statement in many ways. First of all, one needs to ask - eating less than what? Less than before? Well, if you were a pig and ate 3 pies a day, then the answer is different. Also, its dependent on the type of foods your eating. For example, lets say a burger patty is 30G of fat and turkey burgers are 15G of fat. Well, its the same thing calorie wise if you eat 2 turkey burgers, but your actually "eating more" mass with the turkey burger. This seems to be wise if people wish to consume more food. Overall, I think many people are pleased with the amount they can eat when on keto. I haven't really seen any posts about people complaining about hunger. If you had a really poor diet in the past, there's a chance that you'll be eating more and definitely more often! Anyway, just an idea... Thanks

**HDSpeedwild** · 04-16-2002, 07:09 PM

Can I jump straight into keto or do i need to ease myself into it. I would like to start keto asap, but am currently doing 40/40/20 carb/protien/fat. Is it a good idea to do this or should i slowly switch over 1-2 weeks. I am currently doing 11 cal per bodypound.

**shaun** · 04-17-2002, 02:47 AM

hey fitnessman,

do you still have to cut back on calories?

and you said that your body will use dietarty fat then stored body fat. and excess dietary fat is excreted. how much dietary fat is used first b4 u use your bodyfat?

**Original Poster** · 04-17-2002, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by shaun
hey fitnessman,

do you still have to cut back on calories?

and you said that your body will use dietarty fat then stored body fat. and excess dietary fat is excreted. how much dietary fat is used first b4 u use your bodyfat?

It is not a diet if you are not at reduced calories below maintenance.

I don't care what you eat, if you are not expending more than you are taking in, you will not lose weight. (except possibly water weight on some diets).

"weight loss = cals in - cals out" and cals out needs to be higher than cals in.

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