The facts, scientific studies on Pro Hormones (1ad).

[REPRESENT]

Okay i've been seriously thinking of taking a cycle of 1 AD for some time now and have done a lot of research on these boards and some other forums. But most of the stuff i read is simply opinoin, or yeah a guy at the gym told me this "blah blah blah".

Where are the facts? The actual scientific studies that have been done on ph's. I want to see sources, not a guy that says stay away from that **** it'll keep you from growing. WTF? I'm thinking show me some studies and sources that have actually researched on this.

The reason why I ask this is because i know roughly 10 people who have done ph's. All of them under 21 and a 1/4 of them under 18, all of them have told me nothing but good things, and these are the type of kids without the proper diet etc.

So if you have some good sources on Ph's that can be backed up by research please reply. I appreciate the help.

[buddha]

there is very little in the scientific literature about prohormones. you get either:

1) generalizing papers (what they are, what they do, their proposed efficacy) or;

2) papers on first generation products (androstenedione for example), that are worthless because of the advancements made since then, the methodology and/or research design, dosing regimen (too low, too short of a cycle) or;

3) papers saying prohormones basically suck

For example, this is what you typically get:

Can J Appl Physiol. 2003 Feb;28(1):102-16. Related Articles, Links

Oral andro-related prohormone supplementation: do the potential risks outweigh the benefits?

Broeder CE.

James H. Quillen College of Medicine, East Tennessee State University, Johnson City, TN, USA.

Androstenedione, 4-androstenediol, 5-androstenediol, 19-norandrostenediol and 19-norandrostenedione are commonly referred to as "Andro" prohormones. Over the last few years, supplementation using these prohormones has been aggressively marketed to the general public. Supplement manufacturers often claim that Andro use improves serum testosterone concentrations, increases muscular strength and muscle mass, helps to reduce body fatness, enhances mood, and improves sexual performance. However, to date, most studies contradict these claims. In contrast, several studies using oral Andro related prohormones show that Andro use can abnormally elevate estrogen related hormones as well as alterations in hormonal markers (i.e., abnormal elevations in serum estrogen) thought to increase a person's risk for developing prostate or pancreatic cancers. In addition, most studies also indicate that significant declines in high-density lipoproteins occur leading to an increased cardiovascular disease risk. Thus, to date, the current research base suggests that Andro prohormone use does not support manufacturer claims. But it does suggest there should be strong concerns regarding long-term oral Andro prohormone use, especially regarding its effects on blood lipids and estrogen hormone profiles.

Dietary supplements.

Maughan RJ, King DS, Lea T.

School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, Loughborough University, Loughborough LE11 3TU, UK. r.j.maughan@lboro.ac.uk

For the athlete training hard, nutritional supplements are often seen as promoting adaptations to training, allowing more consistent and intensive training by promoting recovery between training sessions, reducing interruptions to training because of illness or injury, and enhancing competitive performance. Surveys show that the prevalence of supplement use is widespread among sportsmen and women, but the use of few of these products is supported by a sound research base and some may even be harmful to the athlete. Special sports foods, including energy bars and sports drinks, have a real role to play, and some protein supplements and meal replacements may also be useful in some circumstances. Where there is a demonstrated deficiency of an essential nutrient, an increased intake from food or from supplementation may help, but many athletes ignore the need for caution in supplement use and take supplements in doses that are not necessary or may even be harmful. Some supplements do offer the prospect of improved performance; these include creatine, caffeine, bicarbonate and, perhaps, a very few others. There is no evidence that prohormones such as androstenedione are effective in enhancing muscle mass or strength, and these prohormones may result in negative health consequences, as well as positive drug tests. Contamination of supplements that may cause an athlete to fail a doping test is widespread.


The following is the only article i could find that even mentions 1-ad specifically:

Prohormones and sport.

Delbeke FT, Van Eenoo P, Van Thuyne W, Desmet N.

Doping Control Unit, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Ghent University, Salisburylaan 133, B-9820 Merelbeke, Belgium. frans.delbeke@rug.ac.be

Several precursors of testosterone and nandrolone introduced on the nutritional supplement market as performance enhancing drugs are banned in sports. Until now they are legally sold without a prescription in the US. Results of excretion studies with related compounds including 7-keto-DHEA and 1-androstenediol are presented. The main metabolites of 7-keto-DHEA are 7-hydroxylated compounds. The commercial 1-androstenediol preparation was contaminated with several other anabolic steroids. Oxidation of 1-androstenediol to 1-androstenedione seems to be the major renal metabolic pathway. Additionally contaminated nutritional supplements containing banned substances not indicated on the label were administered. The results of the excretion studies indicate that after the intake of amounts substantially lower than the recommended dose athletes can fail a doping test for periods up to 120 h.

[kj2833]

Originally posted by buddha
The commercial 1-androstenediol preparation was contaminated with several other anabolic steroids.

wtf? They keep saying this to scare olympic athletes etc...
I have never seen one of these tests. Not to say the occasional slip might not happen, but where are all the stories about proucts failing quality testing with anabolic steroids? Failed drug tests cause of simple supps(Lies they tell when busted?) ahem, it was Zma i swear..... Anybody know any instances? Cause i smell something but my shoes are clean.

[buddha]

Originally posted by kj2833
wtf? They keep saying this to scare olympic athletes etc...
I have never seen one of these tests. Not to say the occasional slip might not happen, but where are all the stories about proucts failing quality testing with anabolic steroids? Failed drug tests cause of simple supps(Lies they tell when busted?) ahem, it was Zma i swear..... Anybody know any instances? Cause i smell something but my shoes are clean.

yea, the studies (a fair amount of them) are like negative propaganda.

[u5711]

Originally posted by kj2833
wtf? They keep saying this to scare olympic athletes etc...
I have never seen one of these tests. Not to say the occasional slip might not happen, but where are all the stories about proucts failing quality testing with anabolic steroids? Failed drug tests cause of simple supps(Lies they tell when busted?) ahem, it was Zma i swear..... Anybody know any instances? Cause i smell something but my shoes are clean.

Here you go....
Shows that contamination is not that rare at all.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14986195


Analysis of non-hormonal nutritional supplements for anabolic-androgenic steroids - results of an international study.

Geyer H, Parr MK, Mareck U, Reinhart U, Schrader Y, Schanzer W.

Institute of Biochemistry, German Sport University, Cologne, Germany.

Several recent studies have shown evidence of some nutritional supplements containing prohibited anabolic androgenic steroids, so-called prohormones, which were not declared on the label. Therefore, a broad-based investigation of the international nutritional supplement market was initiated to clarify the extent of this problem. From October 2000 until November 2001, 634 non-hormonal nutritional supplements were purchased in 13 countries from 215 different suppliers. Most supplements were bought in shops in the respective countries (578 samples = 91.2 %) and on the internet (52 samples = 8.2 %). 289 supplements were from prohormone-selling companies and 345 supplements came from companies which do not offer prohormones. After isolation from the supplement matrix 11 different anabolic androgenic steroids, mainly prohormones of testosterone and nandrolone, were analysed by gas-chromatography/mass spectrometry. Out of the 634 samples analysed 94 (14.8 %) contained anabolic androgenic steroids not declared on the label ("positive supplements"). We could not obtain reliable data for 66 samples (10.4 %) due to matrix effects. In relation to the total number of products purchased per country, most of the positive supplements were bought in the Netherlands (25.8 %), in Austria (22.7 %), in the UK (18.8 %) and the USA (18.8 %). According to the label, all positive supplements were from companies located in only five countries: the USA, the Netherlands, the UK, Italy and Germany. 21.1 % of the nutritional supplements from prohormone-selling companies contained anabolic androgenic steroids, whereas 9.6 % of the supplements from companies not selling prohormones were positive. The positive supplements showed anabolic androgenic steroid concentrations of 0.01 micro g/g up to 190 micro g/g. The administration of supplements containing nandrolone prohormones adding up to a total uptake of more than 1 micro g resulted in positive doping results for norandrosterone for several hours.

[kj2833]

yes ive heard of ph contamination on IOC's website olympic commitee. said something like 491 known instances of contamination(some exact figure) That first post i quoted said "contaminated by anabolic steroids" Ph's arent steroids though. I guess my next Q is where to buy these laced goodies

[BusterBob]

"For eight weeks, men took either a placebo or a combination or the following: 200 milligrams of androstenedione, 150 milligrams of DHEA, 750 milligrams of tribulus terresteris, 625 milligrams of chrysin, 300 milligrams of indole-3-carbinol, and 540 milligrams of saw plametto. The subjects engaged in strength training three times a week throughout the experimental period. However, the stack did not increase testosterone. Nor did it improve strength-training preformance."

I've been pretty confused when it comes to the efficacy of prohormones too. All of the people that I've talked to love prohormones and talk about how much muscle they put on while on them (I had one friend who went up on his bench 60 pounds in three weeks), and yet it seems like every "official" or "scientific" study done on them shows that they dont do anything at all. I don't honestly think that researchers are purposely biasing the information because they could probably care less what the results are. If anything, they would serve to make a little grant money if the stuff did work. I just don't understand how there could be so much confusion. It either works or it doesn't.

[u5711]

Originally posted by BusterBob
"For eight weeks, men took either a placebo or a combination or the following: 200 milligrams of androstenedione, 150 milligrams of DHEA, 750 milligrams of tribulus terresteris, 625 milligrams of chrysin, 300 milligrams of indole-3-carbinol, and 540 milligrams of saw plametto. The subjects engaged in strength training three times a week throughout the experimental period. However, the stack did not increase testosterone. Nor did it improve strength-training preformance."

I've been pretty confused when it comes to the efficacy of prohormones too. All of the people that I've talked to love prohormones and talk about how much muscle they put on while on them (I had one friend who went up on his bench 60 pounds in three weeks), and yet it seems like every "official" or "scientific" study done on them shows that they dont do anything at all. I don't honestly think that researchers are purposely biasing the information because they could probably care less what the results are. If anything, they would serve to make a little grant money if the stuff did work. I just don't understand how there could be so much confusion. It either works or it doesn't.

Its not so clear cut as "it works or it doesnt." For instance, some people train and eat like **** off cycle and then when they cycle they still eat ****ty and train ****ty, but then they claim the item sucks - whether it be ph/steroids or protein powder. Then there are people who train/eat ****ty but when they go on a cycle they train good and eat right, then they contribute their great gains solely to the product theyre taking. Im sure you see where Im going with this. As for the studies, I dont think there are many studies on ph because I doubt there is much need. Steroids are already proven to be potent and its not like ph will replace those in the medical community (those funding the research as well).

[bouche_]

to b honest, i used 2 laugh at the pop-media, but, now i get so friggin pissed when i read or hear the b.s. all the media sources spout.

CUZ ITS GOING 2 DIRECTLY AFFECT ME

any NORMAL, HEALTHY INDIVIDUAL who has used any and all of the proper substances in the proper amounts knows for a fact that they produce tremendous results, with little or no consequences. and even those go away.

wouldnt it b cool if the supplement companies and other pro-supplement science-types got together on this one and started spending the $$ to once and 4 all shut those muthers up with the positive data WE KNOW for a fact is out there.

the the gov and pharmaceuticals would finally have to shut their asses up.

it pisses me off.

i was on espn's site a few days back and sum dumas was actually using a creatine rant 2 prove that steroids r from the devil.

even the most recent books by so-called nutritionists shy away from advocationg creatine and even friggin protein supplements.

it drives me nutz...

[electricvomit]

Originally posted by u5711
Its not so clear cut as "it works or it doesnt." For instance, some people train and eat like **** off cycle and then when they cycle they still eat ****ty and train ****ty, but then they claim the item sucks - whether it be ph/steroids or protein powder. Then there are people who train/eat ****ty but when they go on a cycle they train good and eat right, then they contribute their great gains solely to the product theyre taking. Im sure you see where Im going with this....

I think this guy is right on. It's the placebo effect. People say "Man, I just spent a lot of money on _______. I better work my ass off so this stuff can work its magic." Personally I don't think prohormones work too well. If people up their standards while they're on a ph, good results will follow regardless of the ph's effectiveness.

And as far as the medical studies go....What the hell do those people know? They're only DOCTORS or at the worst grad school students. I love people who can reply to a study with something like "they don't know what they're talking about" or "they're just trying to scare us." Studies from medical journals are published for the sake of science, not propaganda.

[kj2833]

Originally posted by electricvomit
Studies from medical journals are published for the sake of science, not propaganda.

did you notice the study talking about contamination of dietary supplements was done by.....

"Institute of Biochemistry, German Sport University, Cologne, Germany."

German SPORT university

Sounds like propaganda from the sport's world to me.

Even though it is true, its funny who funds these studies that talk negatively. Its always tied back to the same thing somehow. The average person just doesnt notice this.

[electricvomit]

Originally posted by kj2833


did you notice the study talking about contamination of dietary supplements was done by.....

"Institute of Biochemistry, German Sport University, Cologne, Germany."

German SPORT university

Sounds like propaganda from the sport's world to me....

I forgot how big of a propaganda machine a UNIVERSITY is, thank you for reminding me. Do you think a German sports college really wants to trash supplementation? They had to identify a problem about positive steroid drug tests from supplements. Their result was yes, someone can test positive on steroids from taking a prohormone or other supplement because that company did not clean their machines. How is that propaganda? The only thing I learned from that article is that if I know I’m going to be tested for steroids I better look into the cleaning practices of my supplement company.

[kj2833]

I even remember some studies saying andro did not work. I guess thats not propaganda. If you would actually read the IOC website you would see that they recommend not to use any supplements at all. I guess since they had four hundred something positives out of a unmeasurable to me amount of supplements that are actually sold would equate to .000002 percent, yet they recommend you dont use them because of some high possibility of contamination. Truth of the matter is almost all the study's on supplements have to do with sports, and sport oriented universities. I bet you would believe supplement advice from a doctor wouldnt you? watch as he tells you too much protein is harmful, and that creatine will ruin your kidneys.

GEEz i should of read all your post before skipping over it,

" Personally I don't think prohormones work too well. If people up their standards while they're on a ph, good results will follow regardless of the ph's effectiveness."

genius, true genius-NOT

[electricvomit]

Can you tell me how you calculated that statistic of .000002? On the IOC website they say that 94 out of 634 had trace elements of substances that would test posative on a drug test. Thats 14.8%. Could you tell me where the IOC says not to take any kind of supplementation. The only thing I found was

"The IOC Medical Commission has been warning against the potential risks linked to the use of nutritional supplements since 1997. The lack of oversight existing in some countries has prompted the IOC to intervene and to recommend to athletes not to take such products."

Trashing supplements? They're just warning atletes in uncontrolled countries where the doping tests of supplements was up to 25%. They say that because if you get caught posative on anything, you're S.O.L. "Under the Olympic Movement's rule of strict liability, athletes are responsible for whatever substance is found in their bodies."


http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/media...sp?release=266

I like this thread....this is a good debate

[kj2833]

did you just read your own post or is this copy and paste without looking?

Could you tell me where the IOC says not to take any kind of supplementation. The only thing I found was

"The IOC Medical Commission has been warning against the potential risks linked to the use of nutritional supplements since 1997. The lack of oversight existing in some countries has prompted the IOC to intervene and to recommend to athletes not to take such products."

what does the last line say?


By referring to the .000002 thing, Lets say i make a supplement that tested positive. 14% would mean that every single bottle of that supplement would test positive. Do you think that every bottle of something would test positive just because a few did. It might have been the beginning of a run of that particular supp. So you have to dilute the percentage because obviously some wont test positive. I think next time before you quote things, you should understand what they mean. but if you think about it that test was in at the latest 2001, do you really think that three years later these people wouldnt have cleaned their machines. for fear of a lack of sales. Why would they still be saying not to take such products if not for propaganizing supplements in the sports industry.

[electricvomit]

So you're saying you just pulled the .000002 number out of outer space? The IOC said they took over 600 samples over the period of around a year from 215 suppliers. Why would you dilute that number? As far as statistics go, that is an excellent sample population. I don't think that supplement companies clean their equipment any better now days because it's probably a very complex and expensive thing to do. It's not exactly like doing the dishes. Don't abuse stats to make your point. There is a huge difference between 14% (one in 7.14) and .000002 (one in 5 million)

I think you took my quote out of context. Because England is having a problem with mad cow disease, should I stop buying U.S. beef? Should I stop buying Sweedish supplements, that were not recorded having any posative testings, because companies in the Netherlands are having a problem cleaning their machines? That warning does not mean do not take ANY supplementation. It means be weary of the possible contamination in your supplements. Do you really think that olympic athletes don't take any kind of nutritional supplementation to break world records? (have you seen some of the female athletes in the olympics? They have legs that could smash my head like a grape)

I think we're really comparing apples and oranges here. As long as we're not trying to be olympic athletes we won't have to worry about posative doping tests from supplementation. I'd agree that some of the health/medical/sports community is trashing supplementation, I just feel you're taking this "propaganda" to a level of paranoia.

[kj2833]

the only reason it gets to paranoia with me is because im personally sick and tired of all the negativity towards supplements in general, this is just one instance. Im sick and tired of all these doctors and the news media reporting all this crap, and all this crap comes from the sports people worried about cheating. Hell yes i get paranoid when they want to take all the stuff i enjoy using as an adult able to make an informed decision. I dont have to worry about cheating in sports. Scare's of steroids in supplements are the kind of thing that will help get the most tame supplements off the shelves. sometimes paranoia is absolutly essential. Inflating the statistics is as valid a spoof as any. I know that many olmpic athletes take all kinds of supplements. This is why i feel they are using propaganda. if you didnt dilute those statistics a very high number of olympic athletes would fail doping tests. Which would not be inline with the level that it really happens. When can you remember someone being tested positive in the olympics from a supplement and not a steroid? I think my spoof of the statistics was a poke of fun at them. It was not to be taken to the Ill check his statistics and prove him wrong!!! that is just funny to me. Call me paranoid when all our supps are gone.

[electricvomit]

Yea, I see how you don't want supplements banned. I really doubt that this study will ever contribute to something like that. I think that you never hear of olympic athletes testing posative from things other than steroids is because the olympians probably do not go to bodybuilding.com or GNC to buy their supplements. Countries probably probably buy from an exclusive company contracted to supply such supplements so their quality can be better monitored.

I suppose being a little paranoid never hurt anyone, but I think you take it a hair too far. Just don't start saving your pee and not clipping your toenails like Howard Huges

[kj2833]

Originally posted by electricvomit
Just don't start saving your pee and not clipping your toenails like Howard Huges

LOL my pee just might be a controlled substance anyway, wouldnt want to save any.

In a way though this is just one piece of the puzzle. Think that the people who you should be able to trust to tell you the truth only spend their time looking at the negative aspects of everything, then all they will find is negative. The media is helpless and must be spoon fed, so they look for things like this, once found they sometimes probe a little deeper looking to chastise all of us. I just hope you remember this conversation as the next few months roll by, keep an eye out for this media bias. Ive been seeing it for a while so im a little more intune to see it. As well as outraged.

you said
"Countries probably probably buy from an exclusive company contracted to supply such supplements so their quality can be better monitored."

I really have no idea, but this has me wondering. I may actually try to find out something on this for my own curiousity. Now that BALCO is gone, i really dont know who to ask

[kj2833]

Originally posted by electricvomit
Countries probably probably buy from an exclusive company contracted to supply such supplements so their quality can be better monitored.

i guess i was not paying attention, but if this was the case. why would there be a big warning deal on the IOC website advising people not to take supplements if they had an exclusive contract with a guarantee. So that makes no sense.

[electricvomit]

Originally posted by kj2833
i guess i was not paying attention, but if this was the case. why would there be a big warning deal on the IOC website advising people not to take supplements if they had an exclusive contract with a guarantee. So that makes no sense.

That got me thinking too. It turns out the U.S. Olympic team does have a sponsor that provides supplements guaranteed to be banned substance free. They're called pharmanex (www.pharmanex.com). I would be willing to bet that not every country has a sponsor of this quality, and that would explain the need for the test of other supplements.

[kj2833]

mmmmm trimshake. LOL

MOstly herbs, trimshake for protein. I think if those were my only options i would take the risk. Im a little nuts anyway though. Owner must be related to someone to have gotten that contract.

[electricvomit]

keep looking...they have a little more stuff than that. (just a little bit)