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    PW Nutrition.......so many choices........not really.

    These are a few posts made over in the over 35 section by myself as well as some comments and another study posted by BOBO (from AM).

    Let's look at 4 different PW shakes. Regardless if one is cutting or bulking or maintaining.

    First off, the enzymes LPL and HSL come into play here, along with insulin and glucose.

    Let's look at a few explanations of some of these things........
    Fat Breakdown and Utilization:
    The good news is that, fat can be broken down and utilized. Yes, it's a scientific fact that your fat cells can give up their stores for use as fuel. So, let's explore this process of lipolysis or "fat-breakdown" and its opposite, lipogenesis or "fat-creation".

    Insulin and glucagon have opposing effects on fat in the body, and that includes stored fat, dietary fat, or fat made in the liver or in the fat cells (adipose tissue). Most hormones work by plugging into receptors on the surface of your cells, and cause a secondary messenger to be created inside the cell, which will then convey the signal to the appropriate mechanism inside. Often these secondary messengers are enzymes which are a type of protein. Now, in the case of insulin and glucagon, the former, (insulin) stimulates adipose tissue (fat cells) to release the enzyme called Lipoprotein Lipase (LPL) which transports fatty acids into the fat cell and keeps them there. This enzyme is highly sensitive to variations in the metabolic state, being rapidly increased by a high level of plasma glucose. On the other hand, LPL's activity is
    decreased when plasma insulin is low, as in diabetes, or a calorie restricted diet, and most importantly in our case, on a low carbohydrate diet. On the other hand, there is another enzyme, Hormone-Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which does just the opposite, by releasing fatty acids from adipose tissue into the blood so that they can be transported to other cells, and burned as fuel. In fact, fat is the preferred fuel of our mitochondria, the tiny furnaces, so to speak, of every cell in you body. HSL's activity is increased when plasma glucagon is high and insulin is low.

    also..........

    Coordinated regulation of hormone-sensitive lipase and lipoprotein lipase in human adipose tissue in vivo:
    implications for the control of fat storage and fat mobilization.


    Frayn KN, Coppack SW, Fielding BA, Humphreys SM.

    Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

    The enzymes lipoprotein lipase (LPL, EC 3.1.1.34) and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL, EC 3.1.1.3) apparently catalyze opposing functions in white adipose tissue: the former is concerned with fat storage, the latter with fat mobilization. We have studied their regulation in vivo in normal subjects in the postabsorptive state and after eating meals of different compositions, by measurement of arteriovenous concentration differences for triacylglycerol, non-esterified fatty acids and glycerol across a subcutaneous adipose depot. The two enzymes are regulated in a broadly reciprocal manner: in the overnight-fasted state, HSL is more active, but after a meal HSL is suppressed whilst LPL is activated.
    The movement of fatty acids in and out of adipose tissue appears to be driven by concentration gradients generated by regulation of these two enzymes, and also by activation, in the postprandial period, of the process of fatty acid esterification. The results show some interesting and perhaps unexpected features of metabolic regulation. Of the fatty acids generated by the action of LPL on circulating TAG, a large proportion is released directly into the venous plasma:close to 100% in the overnight-fasted state, and 50% or more at the peak of LPL action after a meal, making what appear reasonable assumptions. We suggest that this apparent 'inefficiency' of fat storage reflects the energetic
    cost of maintaining precise control over such a fundamental process. Although LPL is usually thought of as the enzyme
    regulating fat deposition, in fact the fatty acids and glycerol it releases from circulating TAG represent a substantial proportion of those released from adipose tissue, especially in the postprandial state. In addition, although HSL is considered the enzyme responsible for fat mobilization, suppression of its activity is essential to normal regulation of fat deposition. Thus, fat storage and fat mobilization during normal daily life are controlled by coordinated regulation of a number of enzymatic processes in white adipose tissue.
    and........

    Lipoprotein lipase and the disposition of dietary fatty acids.

    Fielding BA, Frayn KN.

    Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

    Lipoprotein lipase (EC 3.1.1.34; LPL) is a key enzyme regulating the disposal of lipid fuels in the body. It is expressed in a number of peripheral tissues including adipose tissue, skeletal and cardiac muscle and mammary gland. Its role is to hydrolyse triacylglycerol (TG) circulating in the TG-rich lipoprotein particles in order to deliver fatty acids to the tissue. It appears to act preferentially on chylomicron-TG, and therefore may play a particularly important role in regulating the disposition of dietary fatty acids. LPL activity is regulated according to nutritional
    state in a tissue-specific manner according to the needs of the tissue for fatty acids. For instance, it is highly active in lactating mammary gland; in white adipose tissue it is activated in the fed state and suppressed during fasting, whereas the reverse is true in muscle. Such observations have led to the view of LPL as a metabolic gatekeeper, especially for dietary fatty acids. However, closer inspection of its action in white adipose tissue reveals that this picture is only partially true. Normal fat deposition in adipose tissue can occur in the complete absence of LPL, and conversely, if LPL activity is increased by pharmacological means, increased
    fat storage does not necessarily follow. LPL appears to act as one member of a series of metabolic steps which are regulated in a highly coordinated manner. In white adipose tissue, it is clear that there is a major locus of control of fatty acid disposition downstream from LPL. This involves regulation of the pathway of fatty acid uptake and esterification, and appears to be regulated by a number of factors including insulin, acylation-stimulating protein and possibly leptin.

    So we can say the following about LPL and HSL:
    when LPL is high, storeage occurs (and growth usually) when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is
    release from adipose cells. Agreed ?


    If we opt for a PW shake that consists of only proteins (whey, ect)

    What takes place............well the proteins will be available for protein synthesis.......and may even illicit an insulin responce.....the main question so far is .....

    Is the insulin response sufficient to help drive the nutritents into the muscle ? Since no Carbs have been ingested.....LPL and insulin will remain lower and HSL will be at much higher levels.

    What does this mean......well since...low insulin (and if it is just from the protein, LPL will be at raised levels also) is present......then probably not much as far as fat storage goes. See, if LPL and insulin levels are Low...........but no FFA's are available........the body will turn to amino acids (muscle) next.
    This is not good!

    What about recovery ? Well that is the hole in a protein only shake, as well as the utilization of protein and possibility of more muscle loss.

    Also, protein synthesis will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery and Glycogen replenishment will occure at a much much slower rate as well.

    Did we lose fat......well probably..but we also most likely lost some muscle also.


    Now what happens if we add fat to that protein only PW?
    Well it actually helps continue fat burn........but at the expense still of muscle recovery as we have not ingested any carbs.

    Because LPL is reduced (no insulin) and HSL is high.......when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is release from adipose cells. And........FFA's would be oxidized for fuel rather than aminos. (sparing muscle) Good thing right ? Well it is a good thing for fatloss........but not for recovery and glycogen replenishment. This too me is still a big hole in fats in a PW shake. The rate of protein absorbtion will be slowed significantly and glycogen replenishment will take much longer. Also with in the absence of larger amounts of insulin..there is some question as to the effective drive of the amino's and nutrients into the muscle. Again, protein synthesis
    will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery. Glycogen replenishment will occure at a much much slower rate.

    You increase the chance of stored aminos to be used as well, plus you want muscle glyocgen to replenish at some point because that increased leptin allowing for better fat burning. Sort of a catch 22 ..No ?

    Even when cutting....Not the best option.
    Last edited by Chi_town; 03-09-2004 at 06:06 AM.
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  2. #2
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    continued..........

    How about if we go with carbs, fat and protein?
    Well this is the sure fire way to gain fat.

    When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first, adipose storage second. This is not fully the case as the fat will cause a much higher amoutn of FFA's. When insulin is high, LPL is high therefore increased storage of fatty acids into fat cells is increased.
    We gain fat !

    The worst option for all the reasons........I am sure we all agree on this ?



    what about if we go with carbs and protein only ?
    Well with this choice........LPL and insulin is high, and now HSL lowers (yes fat burn goes to a trickle if not a halt) What does this do ? It replenishes glycogen and pounds the aminos into the muscles....increases the rate of
    protein synthesis, which equates to a faster recovery.

    Increased glyocgen equates to increased cell volume which increases leptin which triggers the fed state, which equates to increased recovery too. But since nutrient uptake is highest post wokrout, ciriculting glucose go towards muscle glyocogen and FFA's are still used as fuel and therefore HSL will still release fatty acids from adipose cells. Sort of a Paradox really

    When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first, adipose storage second. A good thing.......helps to speed recovery.

    BEST CHOICE, BY FAR !
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    A comment from Bobo (from AM)

    Originally posted by Bobo
    The role of LPL is widely accepted fact and is different in all tissues. In adipose tissue its LPL mediated delivery of FFA's is rate limiting for TG storage whereas in muscle its used as an alternate lipid fuel. The results on that study is one of many on the subject including resistance trained athletes. The point being, the results do not vary in a fashion that would be even close to significance.

    So Chi's recommendation of carb/protein combiniation is optimal for either growth and/or fat lose. The hormonal response's of that combination are far superior that any other mixture of macronutrients. Its provides adequate glycogen storage which in turn signals the fed state which in turn signals protein synthesis which in turn will have a positive effect on leptin levels. Overall when the hormonal effects of different combinations are studies, the carb/protein mixutre is superior in almost every way.


    Not bad Chi..
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    A killer study posted by Bobo.........worth the read.

    Originally posted by Bobo
    This might help to explain things better.

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


    As for your gastric challenge, have you ever tried a fiber based carbohydrate? There are many powders available now that consist of barley and oat flower as their main source. There are many ways to slow digestion. Adding fat when LPL levels are raised greatly increases storage into adipose cells.

    I usually never recommend a simple carb source anyway but thats another debate.
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    Now of course, that's not all there is to this.......LOL

    As there is mounting evidence that for many, a mix of high Gi and low Gi carbs may be ideal for their PW shake......as the high Gi will illicit the needed insulin spike but the lower Gi will help keep insulin levels more stable after that initial spike and help to limit any subsequent crashing like that that can occur on a high Gi carb PW shake(if slightly over done in amounts of carbs).

    Still others have opted for all carbs to be lower GI, IMO the reduction of insulin spike may be too great for most and limit the rate of protein synthesis to something less than near optimal. But for some severly insulin sensitive........this could be a viable option IMO.

    I myself use high Gi carbs (dextrose and/or maltodextrin).
    Maybe some day, I'll toss in some lower GI carbs into the mix.

    I hope you all enjoyed this little lesson ?


    -- Chi
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    Re: Now of course, that's not all there is to this.......LOL

    Originally posted by Chi_town
    As there is mounting evidence that for many, a mix of high Gi and low Gi carbs may be ideal for their PW shake...
    Really? Actual evidence, or a bunch of high-schoolers saying "use both" on a forum?

    Originally posted by Chi_town
    ...as the high Gi will illicit the needed insulin spike but the lower Gi will help keep insulin levels more stable after that initial spike and help to limit any subsequent crashing like that that can occur on a high Gi carb PW shake(if slightly over done in amounts of carbs).
    That's what the post-workout meal is for. Plus, the amount of simple carbs intaken has to be precisely calculated for your lean mass and exercise done. Some people just throw in a ****load of dextrose and complain about crashing. "No ****, genius."

    Originally posted by Chi_town
    Still others have opted for all carbs to be lower GI, IMO the reduction of insulin spike may be too great for most and limit the rate of protein synthesis to something less than near optimal. But for some severly insulin sensitive........this could be a viable option IMO.
    No, it can't be. It is completely inferior to using high-GI carbs in every single way; even diabetics find that using a combination of dextrose and maltodextrin in their post-workout shake (though not necessarily while on keto...) helps stabilize their serum glucose levels for the rest of the day (muscle glycogen super-compensation is a wonderful thing for blood glucose stabilization if you do not go overboard).


    Originally posted by Chi_town
    I myself use high Gi carbs (dextrose and/or maltodextrin).
    Of course, because you actually know what you're doing. But we all know that you're on top of the scientifically sound post-workout nutrition, eh Mr. Smart Mod?
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    Thumbs up Nice!

    Great post Chi! Alot of home work on this one!
    Psalm 121
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    Thumbs up

    Chi, you rule! Great post... Two very enthusiastic thumbs up, fun for the whole family!!!
    Over training? What's that mean?
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    Re: Re: Now of course, that's not all there is to this.......LOL

    Originally posted by afrolov
    Really? Actual evidence, or a bunch of high-schoolers saying "use both" on a forum?
    The exact opposite to be persice.........alot of pretty smart science based people. Here and at other forums......AM has a few threads on the subject.

    -- Chi
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks again Chi for clearing this up, awesome info..
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    CHI... This was a great post, I really enjoyed it, but for those of us who aren't as inclined when it comes to knowing the in's and out's of the above studies... Can ya just plain out tell us what exactly is the best recommended PW Shake we can buy at the GNC store??? Mega Whey, Creatine, what? Just tell me what to buy and that's what i'm going with.. Thanks man!!!
    Over training? What's that mean?
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    Without knowing everything about you.....including the way your body processes carbs and illicit insulin, I would give you my general rec........of starting with 30g whey with 20-30 grams of dextrose and/or maltodextrin. I actually prefer maltodextrin as it is pretty tasteless.....unlike dextrose which is sweet as hell.
    (Some people, including one of my mentors - Yoda ......choose grape juice instead.)

    Of course amounts need to be tweaked and should be relative to LBM IMO.

    If you are on creatine.............that's up to you.
    I usually use plain old micronized creatine......but I have used Creatine titrate and it was not bad............actually, but it is pricier.
    I know alot of people who swear by V12 as well.

    If you buy one of these other creatines, jsut make sure you count those high GI carbs in your totals.........as to figure out the proper amounts.


    -Chi
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    Question

    How in the heck do you guys get those smilies in your narrative part of your post?
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    Originally posted by scott72
    How in the heck do you guys get those smilies in your narrative part of your post?
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/misc.p...on=showsmilies


    Nice post Chi! Very informative.

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    My favorite post workout shake atm is Optimum Nutrition's Aftermax which combines 40/40 on high GI carbs and whey protein.

    I noticed somoene was talking about calculating the exact amount your body needs post workout. Anyone have that formula and/or links to the research done on the subject?
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    thanks for catching me up on my grade 9 bio unit from science class.
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    Originally posted by BIGnaturalBROCK
    thanks for catching me up on my grade 9 bio unit from science class.

    Anytime Brock !
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    Registered User pythonphan's Avatar
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    So what do you suggest????

    C'mon guys. A little help here. I saw that 40g of carbs was about the suggested amount. I also read here that some take grape juice as their carb of choice.

    Well what is it?????? What should I take post workout???

    Right now I WAS taking (untill I read this) just a protein shake - ON 100%whey and was not taking carbs. I guess that would explain my lack of serious growth. I am trying to cut (see my stats) But As posted here, you still need post workout carbs. I lift 4 days a week and cardio 3 - 4 days a week.

    I work out first thing in the morning (the only time I have) so I dont eat before I workout. I then need a post workout shake or meal. Can someone suggest what I should take post workout?

    HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Im now a Gym Rat. Love working out. Weight not dropping much but I am dropping Body Fat.
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    Immediately following your workout you need to take in approximately 15-30 grams of dextrose with about 30-40 grams of protein. I suggest you start with 15 or 20 grams of dextrose and slowly work your way up towards 30 or so. It all depends on the individual regarding if you will stay in ketosis (almost everyone who trains hard should be able to get in 30 grams) and even if it did kick you out of ketosis it would not be long enough to halt any fat loss and you will get right back in shortly as long as you continue with your low carb meals.
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    how much protein per pound is best?

    chi?
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    Originally posted by BIGnaturalBROCK
    how much protein per pound is best?

    chi?

    Best for who ?
    On PH's or AS ?
    What type of split are they on ? Two-a-days ?
    Any cardio in the mix ? When is that cardio done ? Duration and Intensity ?

    Cutting, bulking, or maintaining ?

    Rules of thumb for most average people are .8 - 1.5 grams per lb for people not on AS......and as high as 1.5-2 grams if on AS. (some go as high as 3-4 grams)

    There is no exact right answer to your question IMO...we can only make our best educated guesses. What would be optimal would have to be determined and monitored through blood and urine testing IMO....but that is just not practical for the average person.

    -- Chi
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    Post Workout and Cardio Q...

    Just to make sure...

    If I train with weights, then do my 30 mins of low/moderate intensity cardio immediately after training I take my post workout shake of 40 whey and 15 carb after the cardio right (after all of my exercising is over)?

    Just wanted to clarify this...

    That is what I have been doing b/c it just makes the most sense, b/c if i were to drink my shake b/t the weights and cardio i would not only disrupt recovery but also burn the carbs that are in my shake rather than fat correct?

    thanks
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    Thumbs up

    Yep save it for PW.
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    PW carbs

    I do weights and then 30 minutes of cardio following the weight training and this is before 8:00am. I dont eat before I get to the gym so how many PW carbs should I have in my PW Shake?
    Last edited by pythonphan; 04-30-2004 at 07:12 AM.
    Im now a Gym Rat. Love working out. Weight not dropping much but I am dropping Body Fat.
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  25. #25
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    CKD and Post-Workout

    Hi Guys

    I am sorry if this has been covered but if I am following somehting like the Anabolic Diet and I am trying to bulk up then what should I have post-workout wise during the week when I am limited to 30g of carbs?

    Is there a small timeframe post-workout where due to exercise-induced hormonal changes that one does not need to worry about the amount of carbs in any post-workout shake?

    Mauro Di Pasquale recommends BCAAs to do the work of the carbs in eliciting an insulin respone to their digestion but I just can't see that being big enough to drive the protein into the muscles.

    Thanks for any help
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    Question

    If i do cardio in the morning ,and lift weights later in the afternoon -should i take my PW shake after cardio or after weight training?

    Thanks
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    After weights. Unless there is a resistance element in the cardio (cycling up hills, for instance) there's no real need for a PWO shake after it, and you can stick to regular keto. If it was particularly brutal, then maybe half a shake.

    But if you can avoid it, don't do two shakes a day. If you use up most of your protein cals on your PWO shakes, then you have very little left to make your normal meals interesting (or even normal).
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    Originally Posted by Eileen
    After weights. Unless there is a resistance element in the cardio (cycling up hills, for instance) there's no real need for a PWO shake after it, and you can stick to regular keto. If it was particularly brutal, then maybe half a shake.

    But if you can avoid it, don't do two shakes a day. If you use up most of your protein cals on your PWO shakes, then you have very little left to make your normal meals interesting (or even normal).

    Thanks for the reply Eileen.I have one more question-I know that I shouldn't count the carbs from the PW shake but should I count the proteins from the shake into my daily intake?

    Thanks
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    Yes, you count the protein and you count the cals. You just don't count the carbs, but you should keep note of them, so that you have some idea of what level of PWO carbs works without kicking you out of ketosis.
    65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs = keto.

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    my only question about PW nutrition is do you only take the shake after a heavy weights session or do you take after Cardio too?
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