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  1. #1
    Registered User builtolast's Avatar
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    Creatine next to worthless...?

    Hi everyone. I'm greatly distressed here from the news I just heard from my teacher. You see, I'm currently enrolled in a "Sports Fitness" class at a vocational school here in Ohio, and my teacher was lecturing today on the body's way of using energy. There are three systems that are used she said. These are the three:

    Phosphagen system :
    ADP + Creatine Phosphate reforms to ATP which the body uses. This system is used for short bursts (and to start the use of the two following systems.)

    Anaerobic System:
    ADP + Carbs to recycle to ATP which is used for energy.
    Used for 1-3 min. intervals of training.

    Aerobic System:
    Carbs.+ Fat used as energy source.
    Used for long durations.


    Now, we got on the topic of the phosphagen system and she said that using creatine supplements is worthless, because by the time you start working out (lifting the weight to begin a lift) your body switches over to the anaerobic system and needs carbs, and the extra creatine ("though meant well" she said) is next to worthless cause your body doesn't need it.

    I've never used creatine, but it was something I've been planning on for about a month or two now. I've heard WAY too much about this stuff to think it's a farce. Can someone logically answer this question for me? Is there any research that deals with this that anyone knows about? I'm not really panicking because I've been making gains without anything but whey for awhile, but I'm very curious. Want some proof to go back to my teach with.

    THANKS!
    Boom! Here comes the Boom!
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  2. #2
    donkey punch dito dito's Avatar
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    You should find some good info here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=100831
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  3. #3
    Trainer of Champions EME's Avatar
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    Creatine

    In my opinion, the greatest benefit of creatine is not as a source of energy, but the way that it hydrates your muscle cells.

    Creatine pulls water into the muscle cells causing three significant things to happen.

    1) Increases protein synthesis in the muscle cell by pulling more amino acids into the muscle cell. More aminos = more protein synthesis which = increased muscle growth, provided that you are training properly.

    2) Increases the rate that nutrients such as glycogen are replenished in the muscle cell after workouts. The results in shorter recovery times which = more possibility for growth.

    3) Super-hydration of the muscle cells causes them to expand resulting in added size, but more importantly increased surface tension on the muscle cell which translates to increased strength.
    If you can train with more weight, you affect more muscle fibers which in turn creates more muscle growth.

    So, Creatine helps you build muscle in many ways that aren't related to increased energy.

    I have never taken creatine to provide added energy. A good ECA stack will do that for you if you need it. But, I have definitely experienced the effects of the three things listed above when taking creatine.

    EME
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  4. #4
    Member steadyballin03's Avatar
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    Well put


    HYDRATION, HYDRATION, HYDRATION
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  5. #5
    i love DMLSS Frankiexq's Avatar
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    regardless of the science your teacher is explaining, real-world results are king. it's a staple in my house.
    i wish we could have avatars.
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    Re: Creatine next to worthless...?

    Originally posted by builtolast
    Hi everyone. I'm greatly distressed here from the news I just heard from my teacher. You see, I'm currently enrolled in a "Sports Fitness" class at a vocational school here in Ohio, and my teacher was lecturing today on the body's way of using energy. There are three systems that are used she said. These are the three:

    Phosphagen system :
    ADP + Creatine Phosphate reforms to ATP which the body uses. This system is used for short bursts (and to start the use of the two following systems.)

    Anaerobic System:
    ADP + Carbs to recycle to ATP which is used for energy.
    Used for 1-3 min. intervals of training.

    Aerobic System:
    Carbs.+ Fat used as energy source.
    Used for long durations.


    Now, we got on the topic of the phosphagen system and she said that using creatine supplements is worthless, because by the time you start working out (lifting the weight to begin a lift) your body switches over to the anaerobic system and needs carbs, and the extra creatine ("though meant well" she said) is next to worthless cause your body doesn't need it.

    I've never used creatine, but it was something I've been planning on for about a month or two now. I've heard WAY too much about this stuff to think it's a farce. Can someone logically answer this question for me? Is there any research that deals with this that anyone knows about? I'm not really panicking because I've been making gains without anything but whey for awhile, but I'm very curious. Want some proof to go back to my teach with.

    THANKS!

    This is just another case of the professors and teachers in this country and around the world along with most medical professionals not keeping up with what is going on in the world of nutrition, supplementation and fitness. They really having no f*cking clue what they are talking about when it comes to supplements. It is like once they got their degree any future knowledge published means nothing to them. They are all stuck with what they learned in college if anything at all. It is bullsh*t and you should be pissed off.

    My favorite example are when doctors, professors and even some in research have no clue at all what classifies as a carbohydrate. You should listen to the conversations I have had with these people. Oh and don't even get me started on how lost they are when it comes to excercise. To think it is these types of people who are determining policies in our country with regards to health and fitness. It is a f*cking joke.
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  7. #7
    Member Josh8315's Avatar
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    Basically, there will always be people say X wont work.

    "and the extra creatine ("though meant well" she said) is next to worthless cause your body doesn't need it. "


    Look dude, when almost 80% of the people on this board tell you than creatine works for them, and since we are bobybuilders and are very in tune with our bodies, and have learned to sniff out the placebo effect, there is no way we are all suffering from a mass dilusion. Creatine is almost completely safe, and for most people, provides real benefits.
    later
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  8. #8
    Member Anssi_Manninen's Avatar
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    Re: Creatine next to worthless...?

    Originally posted by builtolast
    Hi everyone.... Now, we got on the topic of the phosphagen system and she said that using creatine supplements is worthless, because by the time you start working out (lifting the weight to begin a lift) your body switches over to the anaerobic system and needs carbs, and the extra creatine ("though meant well" she said) is next to worthless cause your body doesn't need it.

    I've never used creatine, but it was something I've been planning on for about a month or two now. I've heard WAY too much about this stuff to think it's a farce. Can someone logically answer this question for me? Is there any research that deals with this that anyone knows about? I'm not really panicking because I've been making gains without anything but whey for awhile, but I'm very curious. Want some proof to go back to my teach with.

    THANKS!
    Your teacher is full ****. Go to www.pubmed.com and you will find ****load of creatine studies.
    Anssi Manninen

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  9. #9
    Registered User ivan2's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Frankiexq
    regardless of the science your teacher is explaining, real-world results are king. it's a staple in my house.
    bump
    smash the pain barrier to f******pieces.

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  10. #10
    Senior Member MJSbossman's Avatar
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    It works, plain and simple.

    It's not a coincidence that over 75% of gold medal olympic athletes use it.

    I feel so much better and stronger when I'm taking creatine, and my strength goes up 2 weeks after I start taking it...always.
    19 years old, 6', 210lbs (11%bf)
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  11. #11
    Registered User buddha's Avatar
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    Agreed

    Creatine works, people who use it on this board can attest to that. Additionally, there are numerous studies on the benefits of creatine to both weightlifting, sprinting, and endurance running. It's been studied in the scientific community for decades (I actually have an article on creatine that is from 1925!). Searching for creatine at Pubmed or a journal site will yield dozens of studies.
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  12. #12
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    STAMINO2: Finish the job that creatine started
    by Pat Arnold


    If you are taking creatine then you are only addressing half of the equation of muscle energy, recovery, and growth!!!

    Creatine works by enhancing your muscle’s energy supply and re-supply capacity through the anaerobic pathway. It does this by increasing concentrations of creatine phosphate, which is the muscle’s immediate storage house for valuable phosphate ions. In the form of creatine phosphate, these ions are readily available to restore the activity of the primary muscle fuel ATP. Creatine phosphate works in conjunction with glycogen to provide immediate energy to the muscle. These compounds do not require the presence of oxygen to do their work, hence they are termed anaerobic (without oxygen) substrates.

    The down side of the story is that creatine phosphate is quickly used up. In addition to this, anaerobic breakdown of glycogen for energy (glycolysis) soon comes to a halt as lactic acid builds up.

    At this point it is time for the aerobic re-supply of ATP to take over. The aerobic energy system is complex and involves many metabolic pathways that use glucose, glycolytic by-products, as well as fats for substrates.

    Citrulline Malate – “Aerobic Creatine???”

    As I explained, creatine works by supporting and enhancing the anaerobic production of energy in the muscle. Unfortunately, it does nothing to address the production of aerobic energy in the muscle.

    This is where citrulline malate comes in. Citrulline malate has been shown to increase aerobic ATP production in the muscle by 34%! The result is a marked decrease in fatigue and a substantial increase in aerobic exercise performance. Citrulline malate does this in part by stimulating the removal and utilization for energy of the lactic acid formed during anaerobic glycolysis.

    Citrulline malate works synergistically with creatine in another way as well. After exercise your creatine phosphate levels are depleted and it takes a while for the free creatine in your muscles to be rephosphorylated. With citrulline malate, the rate of phosphocreatine recovery after exercise is increased by 20%! This means that you recover more quickly between weight training sessions giving yourself a better opportunity to grow faster.

    Citrulline Malate and Ammonia

    Ammonia is a toxic metabolic by product produced by your muscles, especially during intense exercise. Ammonia is removed from the body by the liver’s urea cycle. Ammonia is very toxic to the body and muscles; the build up of ammonia in the body results in a rapid onset of fatigue. If the levels are not reduced, they can lead to muscle catabolism and interference with brain function. Severe ammonia toxicity can lead to organ failure, and eventually death.

    Citrulline Malate stimulates the urea cycle and therefore markedly increases the body’s ability to remove ammonia. Ammonia is thus converted to the harmless by-product urea, and excreted from the body.

    Over 20 years of proven value

    Citrulline Malate has been sold in France under the name Stimol™ for over 20 years. There, it has mostly been used in the clinical setting for use with weakened and elderly patients, as well in the general population for general fatigue. The results in many cases have been remarkable, with observations of renewed energy, vitality, and mental function to previously physically and mentally impaired patients (see abstracts at end of article)

    StaminO2 – Citrulline Malate solution

    StaminO2 is Ergopharm’s brand of Citrulline malate and it is sold in the same liquid based form that it has been successfully used for decades in France. One capful of pleasant tasting sour apple StaminO2 provides 3 grams of Citrulline malate. The recommended dosage is one 3 gram serving, twice a day. Maximum results are usually seen after 15 days. It usually is a good idea to take one of the doses before training, and it is also a very good idea to consume StaminO2 at the same time as creatine supplements.

    Users of StaminO2 should notice greater stamina during intense workouts, better pumps, and quicker recovery – both between sets and between workouts. Users may also experience enhanced well being, general energy, and mental and sexual function.


    ABSTRACTS:

    Randomized Double Blind Placebo Controlled Trial of Citrulline Malate in Geriatrics M. Carbasse, Regional Teaching HospitalCenter, Nimes, France.

    This double blind placebo controlled randomized trial thus refined and confirmed the results of an earlier open study with citrulline malate, confirming the efficacy of the preparation against the clinical manifestation of cerebral aging. Stimol®is therefore felt to be of particular value in geriatrics for the following: 1. High level of safety 2. High level of acceptability 3. Ease of administration 4. And above all, rapidity of action. Results were clinically detectable by the 3rd or 4th and at least the 5th day of treatment. There was an improvement in skin color and a higher level of conscious awareness. While it is difficult at the present time to confirm a favorable effect on individual items (with the exception of vigilance), patients felt better and often reported this spontaneously. If no result is found after two weeks of treatment, it is felt to be of no value to continue. The action of the majority of pharmaceutical preparations aimed at improving cerebral function or oxygenation is far less rapid and clear cut.


    Analysis of the Activity of Stimol®, Double Blind Trial on Fatigue. F. Commandre. La Vie Medicale, April 3,l978.

    Assessment of the efficacy of an antifatigue medicine is possible only by use of a meticulous methodological approach. It was with this in mind that the study reported here was undertaken, its objective being to evaluate the antifatigue activity of Stimol® by comparing it with a placebo. Stimol®, or citrulline malate is supplied in the form of 10 ml oral ampoules, prescribed at the dose of 3 per day for two weeks. The active ingredients are DL-malic acid and L-Citrulline (20g/100 ml). The cohort treated in this double blind study trial included 39 patients of both genders with a mean age of around 66 years. Dosage composed of 6 grams daily for 2 weeks. Fatigue in these patients was very markedly improved by Stimol®. Evidence was found of a statistically significant (P<.02) difference between the two groups with a 75% success rate for the active substance compared to 36.8% effectiveness for the placebo.


    Evaluation of Stimol® In The Treatment Of Surgical Patient Fatigue J. Taillade, Biocodex Laboratories, Paris France

    Whatever the operation involved, surgery puts a patient under considerable stress: There is an element of psychological assault, with anguish, distress and insomnia, but there is also the physical assault of the act of surgery itself and the specific illness surrounding it, which is distinct from the underlying pathology being treated. Thus “the fact that a patient is tired after surgery, and that his or her tiredness is proportional to the surgery he or she has undergone, has long been accepted by the general public, and indeed is the justification invoked for post-operative rest.” There may be many causes of post-operative fatigue, but it is certain that the stress involved produces an increased and profound disturbance in catabolism: thus abnormalities in glucose breakdown have been demonstrated after surgery, with an accumulation of toxic metabolites such as pyruvate and lactate. Citrulline malate (Stimol®) is indicated in the treatment of physical fatigue, based on evidence from a number of studies, including several controlled trials. Malate conditions the recycling of lactate and pyruvate, while taking part, via its position in the tricarboxylic cycle, in the supply of immediately available energy. The citrulline fraction takes part in the elimination of the amino acid breakdown products of protein metabolism.


    Activity of Citrulline Malate on Acid-Base Balance and Blood Ammonia and Amino Acid Levels Study In The Animal And In Man A. Callis, B. Magnan de Bornier, J.J. Serrano, H. Bellet, and R. Saumade

    An experimental evaluation of citrulline malate (Stimol®) CAS 54940-97, an antifatigue compound, was undertaken in man and in animal to study the pharmacological activity of the substance at hepatic and renal level. In man, the protocol involved a double-blind randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over technique. The study in the animal was blind and placebo-controlled with two randomized parallel groups. Results showed that citrulline malate stimulates hepatic ureogenesis and favors the renal reabsorption of bicarbonates. These metabolic actions had a protective effect against acidosis and ammonia poisoning and explain the antifatigue properties of citrulline malate in
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  13. #13
    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    Re: Creatine next to worthless...?

    Originally posted by builtolast
    Hi everyone. I'm greatly distressed here from the news I just heard from my teacher. You see, I'm currently enrolled in a "Sports Fitness" class at a vocational school here in Ohio, and my teacher was lecturing today on the body's way of using energy. There are three systems that are used she said. These are the three:

    Phosphagen system :
    ADP + Creatine Phosphate reforms to ATP which the body uses. This system is used for short bursts (and to start the use of the two following systems.)

    Anaerobic System:
    ADP + Carbs to recycle to ATP which is used for energy.
    Used for 1-3 min. intervals of training.

    Aerobic System:
    Carbs.+ Fat used as energy source.
    Used for long durations.


    Now, we got on the topic of the phosphagen system and she said that using creatine supplements is worthless, because by the time you start working out (lifting the weight to begin a lift) your body switches over to the anaerobic system and needs carbs, and the extra creatine ("though meant well" she said) is next to worthless cause your body doesn't need it.

    I've never used creatine, but it was something I've been planning on for about a month or two now. I've heard WAY too much about this stuff to think it's a farce. Can someone logically answer this question for me? Is there any research that deals with this that anyone knows about? I'm not really panicking because I've been making gains without anything but whey for awhile, but I'm very curious. Want some proof to go back to my teach with.

    THANKS!
    I assume by teacher you mean high school teacher and not professor. Someone with a PhD would not make these tenuous conclusions about these pathways. No creatine is not worthless, it is one of the few supplements that actually works and has numerous peer-reviewed studies to back up it's effectiveness.
    -Layne
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  14. #14
    Registered User builtolast's Avatar
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    These are some good points. Very good points. I think she falls into the category of those professors that learn one thing (she's somewhere over 46 years old, so....) and then updating themselves on current research is like trying to shove a watermelon up there butt, to them. Impossible. She's been in physical therapy
    and the fitness industry for over 20 years, which is what initially freaked me out. She means well but some of the stuff she teaches is just plain wrong. Here's a list of similar topics she's butchered:

    1.) "Your body needs 10-12% protein. Anymore than that your body will turn the excess into fat!"

    This was a funny one because the book she was teaching out of said nothing about it actually said any "excess" would be passed through and out the excretory system! But, even though it was right there in front of us she still stuck to her theory.

    2.) Day 1 qoute: "You can tell if you're getting enough water if your urine is clear. If it's not clear you've got a water problem."

    Day 2 qoute: "You can tell if you're getting enough water soluble vitamins if you have a darker urine."

    I'm not sure how she wants us to stay on top of both these without contradicting one or the other?


    I think there's a few more things, but this is all I can think of for now. I'll update the messed up teachings next time I hear them.

    Thanks again guys, for the re-assurance, and god honest truth.
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    Senior Member ironhead31's Avatar
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    IT WORKS!!!!!!!!IT WORKS!!!!!!
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    Trust me the sh*t works great
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    Originally posted by builtolast
    But, even though it was right there in front of us she still stuck to her theory.
    I feel for you man. I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to my "Nutrition" class.

    So many times, I have found ways to point out my professor's contradictions. Yet, no matter how many times we bring that up, she goes on about how much more experience she has over us.

    Garbage cop out!

    I just gave up. I'm there for the grade so I'll spit back the bull**** that she bestowes upon us. But once I get my A, I'll go back to what works for people and myself in real life, rather than what is making America the lardass that it is quickly becomming.
    The journey of 10,000 miles begins with the first step.

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  18. #18
    Member Anssi_Manninen's Avatar
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    How about if you give him copy of some creatine supp review paper published in peer-reviewed journal:

    http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/pub...4-89-94-03.pdf
    Anssi Manninen

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    Originally posted by builtolast
    These are some good points. Very good points. I think she falls into the category of those professors that learn one thing (she's somewhere over 46 years old, so....) and then updating themselves on current research is like trying to shove a watermelon up there butt, to them. Impossible. She's been in physical therapy
    and the fitness industry for over 20 years, which is what initially freaked me out. She means well but some of the stuff she teaches is just plain wrong. Here's a list of similar topics she's butchered:

    1.) "Your body needs 10-12% protein. Anymore than that your body will turn the excess into fat!"

    This was a funny one because the book she was teaching out of said nothing about it actually said any "excess" would be passed through and out the excretory system! But, even though it was right there in front of us she still stuck to her theory.

    2.) Day 1 qoute: "You can tell if you're getting enough water if your urine is clear. If it's not clear you've got a water problem."

    Day 2 qoute: "You can tell if you're getting enough water soluble vitamins if you have a darker urine."

    I'm not sure how she wants us to stay on top of both these without contradicting one or the other?


    I think there's a few more things, but this is all I can think of for now. I'll update the messed up teachings next time I hear them.

    Thanks again guys, for the re-assurance, and god honest truth.
    So, this was vocational school, not university?! Still, I would talk with rector. This lady is full of S¤#t!
    Anssi Manninen

    Sports Nutrition & Ergogenic Aid Columnist
    Muscular Development
    www.musculardevelopment.com
    FitnessRx for Men
    www.fitnessrxformen.com

    Sports Supplement Review Editor
    ISSN Newsletter
    International Society of Sports Nutrition
    www.sportsnutritionsociety.org
    (FREE Newsletter available!)
    Reply With Quote

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