Back is Sore from Pull Day so I can't do Romanian Deadlifts on Leg Day

[Pocro]

So yesterday was my pull day and I actually hit my back pretty good. Really focused on mind muscle connection with pull ups and I could just tell the feeling I got immediatley after the sets that I was going to get crazy DOMS the next day.

Today is the next day and indeed my lower back is quite sore. The problem is now today is my leg day and I normally do RDLs, but even just me doing the movement with my bodyweight my back is so fking sore. no way I'm going to do them today.

I never really looked into how much back is used in the big leg movements but it def is. Even me doing squat now with body weight I feel the soreness.

But now I'm realizing that If I actually go hard every single day in the routine then Im not going to recover in time for leg day cause it does use some of my back muscles.

I guess first thing is should I have my split instead be Pull Push Legs, so that pull and legs are one day father apart to let the back recover in time for the next leg day? That would help a bit but Idk if that would be enough.

I dont think just putting Deadlifts into Pull Days is the answer because you do use a lot of your hamstrings and quads depending on what exercise, and those are my two biggest movements on leg day, so then I'd just turn pull and legs day into one which isnt what I want. I like my routine now where its just around one hour workout 6x a week.

let me know when you all do pull movements and RDLS on a PPL split to get some idea.
and also let me know some exercises I can do today if I'm sore like this. Only ones I can think of are just the machines like leg extension and curls + calve raises.

Thank you in advance for your help.

PS:

I'm curious if there's like an actual split that's just like, front body then back body. Like PPL but splitting the leg day and throwing quad exercises on the push days and hamstring and calf movements on the pull days to make it just 4x week. That almost sounds like it could be good.

[CW47]

I'm curious if there's like an actual split that's just like, front body then back body. Like PPL but splitting the leg day and throwing quad exercises on the push days and hamstring and calf movements on the pull days to make it just 4x week. That almost sounds like it could be good.

Of course, you can split up the work any way you want. A Push/Pull split is absolutely a viable option. I've run one before.

I don't have a link to a premade program I'd recommend, but you could certainly design your own.
Push days will consist of Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, Quads, Calves
Pull days will have Back, Biceps, Hamstrings, Abs

You don't need to hit all of the listed body parts within a given workout. For example, on push days you may have one day that focuses on shoulders and another that focuses on chest.

[air2fakie]

Even me doing squat now with body weight I feel the soreness.

Anyone doing bw squats doesn't need to be doing a PPL.

I guess first thing is should I have my split instead be Pull Push Legs, so that pull and legs are one day father apart to let the back recover in time for the next leg day?

You still end up with Legs then Pull halfway through the week.

I'm curious if there's like an actual split that's just like, front body then back body. Like PPL but splitting the leg day and throwing quad exercises on the push days and hamstring and calf movements on the pull days to make it just 4x week. That almost sounds like it could be good.

It's called a Push/Pull dude. The problem is not your specific split, it's the fact that the volume isn't suitable for your level of development.

[TolerantLactose]

But now I'm realizing that If I actually go hard every single day in the routine then Im not going to recover in time for leg day cause it does use some of my back muscles.

It sounds like you're on a program unsuited for you. Rearranging the deckchairs is not the answer. You likely need to dial back on what your doing.

[Pocro]

Of course, you can split up the work any way you want. A Push/Pull split is absolutely a viable option. I've run one before.

I don't have a link to a premade program I'd recommend, but you could certainly design your own.
Push days will consist of Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, Quads, Calves
Pull days will have Back, Biceps, Hamstrings, Abs

You don't need to hit all of the listed body parts within a given workout. For example, on push days you may have one day that focuses on shoulders and another that focuses on chest.

Yeah something like that sounds good. I didn't think about like having one day focus chest one day focus shoulders but I've heard other people say that. I guess right now I'm focusing more on upper chest so either way the movements I'm doing will hit shoulders enough that i dont need to focus a day onto it. That's the logic Im going with for now anyway. But yeah I also need to have the 2 days a week for abs and neck.

[Pocro]

It sounds like you're on a program unsuited for you. Rearranging the deckchairs is not the answer. You likely need to dial back on what your doing.

Well my friend this brings up the good question, is getting DOMS an effective measurement as to how hard you went in a workout? Do you still gain muscle without feeling DOMS? Because for bodybuilding the way I see it. You want to break down the muscle as much as possible and the more you break it down the more sore you will be and you can get a good idea of if you did the exercise properly/ if you broke it down enough based on your DOMS the next day. I feel good when I'm sore cause it's like "I did the exercise properly and now all I have to do is eat properly and I will grow off of this" but I actually dont know if you truly need DOMS or not. I saw a couple videos on it but they were all like " if you feel it great, if not it's fine' but I need some logic behind it for it to make sense it.

But ok you personally, I assume you've been working out for a quite a bit and so some split. Are you still getting consistently sore? if not, are you still seeing consistent gains?

[paulinkansas]

2 guys were at a bar and they saw a dog licking his balls. One guy said to the other "I wish I could do that". The other guy finished his beer and said "You'd better pet him first".

Don't be that guy.

[Pocro]

Anyone doing bw squats doesn't need to be doing a PPL.

No bro I meant just the motion of the squat I felt my sore back.

It's called a Push/Pull dude. The problem is not your specific split, it's the fact that the volume isn't suitable for your level of development.

I feel like my volume is good because I'm this sore right. The more sore you are it kind of indicates how hard you went, and how much muscle you're going to grow. Please correct me if I'm entirely wrong. But the more you break down the muscle, the more soreness you feel, the more potentially it has to grow back bigger/stronger if you have the right caloric intake and protein amount for protein synthesis etc.

I do understand that you probably will be less and less sore each time you workout but that's the whole point of progressive overload. To match your body's increase in strength with an increase in volume so that you can get the same level of pain/breaking down of muscle every time so that you grow the most maximallly way possible from every single workout.

I haven't done like any proper research on doms yet and like if your supposed to feel them at an advanced level or not. But I'm just wondering what your guys experience is.

[Pocro]

2 guys were at a bar and they saw a dog licking his balls. One guy said to the other "I wish I could do that". The other guy finished his beer and said "You'd better pet him first".

Don't be that guy.

wtf

[air2fakie]

I feel like my volume is good because I'm this sore right. The more sore you are it kind of indicates how hard you went, and how much muscle you're going to grow. Please correct me if I'm entirely wrong. But the more you break down the muscle, the more soreness you feel, the more potentially it has to grow back bigger/stronger if you have the right caloric intake and protein amount for protein synthesis etc.

I do understand that you probably will be less and less sore each time you workout but that's the whole point of progressive overload. To match your body's increase in strength with an increase in volume so that you can get the same level of pain/breaking down of muscle every time so that you grow the most maximallly way possible from every single workout.

I haven't done like any proper research on doms yet and like if your supposed to feel them at an advanced level or not. But I'm just wondering what your guys experience is.

It's hard to help people with an issue they're having when they don't think there could be a problem with their programming, or they have their own theories why whatever advice you give them is wrong. In the end, do whatever you feel works for you.

[radrd]

DOMS is a good way to tell if you are successfully targeting a muscle group, but it's not a good indicator of muscle growth. It's a better indication of poor adaptation. As you become more advanced, if you are running a solid program, you will only generally experience DOMS when you change your routine or come back after an extended layoff.

If you are experiencing lower back DOMS after doing pull ups, you're doing them wrong. Pull ups aren't supposed to target your lower back.

Finally, it's clear you are a novice and have no business running a PPL. You're actually slowing your progress with this type of program. You will have much better success running a full-body novice routine like Fierce 5 which is designed to help you make faster progress while you're still able to consistently add weight to the bar from week to week.

[TolerantLactose]

Well my friend this brings up the good question, is getting DOMS an effective measurement as to how hard you went in a workout?

I get it when I do something new or after a layoff. That's it.

Do you still gain muscle without feeling DOMS?

Yes

Because for bodybuilding the way I see it. You want to break down the muscle as much as possible and the more you break it down the more sore you will be and you can get a good idea of if you did the exercise properly/ if you broke it down enough based on your DOMS the next day.

In between workouts, you recover and adapt. The more energy and time you spend recovering, the less you have to adapt. Adapting is what you want. Recovery is a cost.

Are you still getting consistently sore? if not, are you still seeing consistent gains?

I get doms very rarely. I'm slowly working my way to 2.5x bw squats and 3x bw deadlifts.

[TolerantLactose]

It's hard to help people with an issue they're having when they don't think there could be a problem with their programming, or they have their own theories why whatever advice you give them is wrong. In the end, do whatever you feel works for you.

Guy comes here complaining about doms preventing him from doing rdls. Winds up arguing why doms is good. Ergo, not being able to do rdls is a good thing.

[CW47]

You know how they say that you need sunlight to stay healthy because of the vitamins/nutrients associated with it. Well, just because sunlight is good for you doesn't mean the more you get the more healthy you get. Getting a sunburn is not healthy.

Likewise, breaking down muscle fibers plays a part in muscle growth, but there's not a direct relationship between how much you break a muscle down and how much it grows. It's generally better to expose a muscle to more stimulus gradually over time than to destroy it as much as possible every time. And this is because of exactly what TolerantLactose points out - when you outstrip your ability to recover you're actually limiting how much your muscles can grow.

And yes - DOMS often only occur when your body is exposed to a new stimulus. This could be in the form of a new exercise, it could be in the form of a new rep range, it could be in the form of a different level of intensity, or a number of other things.

I have often gone months without even an inking of DOMS - while also gaining both strength and size at the same time. DOMS is not an indicator of whether or not you're doing an appropriate amount of work.

For volume, more is not necessarily better. In fact it's often worse. There's a good argument to be made that progressing slower is better. Long term adherence to training is one of the biggest factors in 'success', and by maintaining slow but steady progress you delay the plateaus that often cause people to get frustrated and give up, and you reduce the likelihood of getting injured. When it comes to training, it's always a balancing act.

[jasonp360]

Guy comes here complaining about doms preventing him from doing rdls. Winds up arguing why doms is good. Ergo, not being able to do rdls is a good thing.

^ This is awesome.

And remember! Every exercise is a lower back exercise, if you do it wrong enough.

[TheShadowMan]

If hitting hamstrings was my goal and back was still in the recovery phase, i'd use nordic curls or laying slideboard curls if those are not doable at the time due to skill or strength abilities.