First Do No Harm(except when it comes to transgendered people)

[uneducated]

What do you mean “you people”.



I don’t care what trans people do as long as they don’t hurt anyone. For the most part I feel bad for them because living with that has to suck. What I have a problem with is the push to glamorize it and celebrate it as awesome, particularly pushing it on kids. And in many cases it’s just examples of gay, autistic, depressed, or just generally uncertain adolescents who are now being pushed towards viewing themselves as transgendered. That is harmful. It much better to be a gay person who is happy in their body than to be a trans person. And when you start pushing “treatments” to permanently alter a young person it is harmful. Which again, is why so many countries are moving away from the practice. It should be Ana absolute last resort after all other options have failed to help the patient. But sadly we treat it more like we do depression these days, where the first option is a pill that alters the persons brain instead of trying alternative methods first. That’s why such an insane number of people are on brain-altering drugs in this country. Such is the state of American healthcare though….and sadly kids are suffering because of it.

I agree something like surgery should be a last resort. And even hormones are pretty extreme. And also gender affirming care doesn't just mean hormones and surgery. It can be as simple as identifying as the other gender and wearing different clothes. There are a lot of studies showing it does work and helps. People are on prescription drugs because they help. It seems you are against the idea of medicine in general. The alternative methods for trans care, such as conversion therapy, failed miserably.

I don't see it as a failure that people are taking meds. The meds are supposed to help them, and data shows they do. I bet if we had better social policies, we could cut a lot of depression rates, but muh capitalism and profits so this is where we are at.

[Anachron]

Interesting.

So you are claiming that you have no control over your actions, and your insults are the fault of whoever insulted you first?

And just remember, you have claimed that I was a "Nazi" in the past... so I guess you just gave yourself a "get out of jail" card for any insult that you have made in the past...

The state of "academics" these days.

I wonder why wincel ignored this post?

[jtaylor2010]

I agree something like surgery should be a last resort. And even hormones are pretty extreme. And also gender affirming care doesn't just mean hormones and surgery. It can be as simple as identifying as the other gender and wearing different clothes. There are a lot of studies showing it does work and helps. People are on prescription drugs because they help. It seems you are against the idea of medicine in general. The alternative methods for trans care, such as conversion therapy, failed miserably.

I don't see it as a failure that people are taking meds. The meds are supposed to help them, and data shows they do. I bet if we had better social policies, we could cut a lot of depression rates, but muh capitalism and profits so this is where we are at.

I’d say you have it backwards… at least somewhat. Capitalism is a big reason why so many people are on antidepressants because it is extremely profitable for drug companies. Though I do agree that our culture is harmful for mental health to some degree. Pointing out that putting millions of kids on amphetamines is harmful and irresponsible, or that handing out mood(and mind) altering drugs like they’re candy is harmful doesn’t mean I’m against medicine in general. I think modern medicine is absolutely incredible….unfortunately the entities behind it have shown time and time and time and time again that they prioritize profits over health. And the results?? The results we see right in front of us.

[miscinbro]

I wonder why wincel ignored this post?

God your life must be sad.

[Dave22reborn]

I agree something like surgery should be a last resort. And even hormones are pretty extreme. And also gender affirming care doesn't just mean hormones and surgery. It can be as simple as identifying as the other gender and wearing different clothes. There are a lot of studies showing it does work and helps. People are on prescription drugs because they help. It seems you are against the idea of medicine in general. The alternative methods for trans care, such as conversion therapy, failed miserably.

I don't see it as a failure that people are taking meds. The meds are supposed to help them, and data shows they do. I bet if we had better social policies, we could cut a lot of depression rates, but muh capitalism and profits so this is where we are at.

You don't see a problem with nine year Olds being on puberty blockers?

[Dave22reborn]

I’d say you have it backwards… at least somewhat. Capitalism is a big reason why so many people are on antidepressants because it is extremely profitable for drug companies. Though I do agree that our culture is harmful for mental health to some degree. Pointing out that putting millions of kids on amphetamines is harmful and irresponsible, or that handing out mood(and mind) altering drugs like they’re candy is harmful doesn’t mean I’m against medicine in general. I think modern medicine is absolutely incredible….unfortunately the entities behind it have shown time and time and time and time again that they prioritize profits over health. And the results?? The results we see right in front of us.

Do know harm...... Here ya go, have some ******** that you'll be taken for the rest of your life.

Didn't they even discover that all these meds are ****ing up the fish as well, something to do with our urine?

[Dave22reborn]

Except I never played the man and not the ball. I suggested to do the opposite by focusing on the debate over GAC. I just said not to forge a connection between the LGBT community and some sort of paedophilic tendency, or act as if GAC is some sort of grooming technique.


I also follow this up by saying transgenderism is real, a child can be genuinely transgender, regardless of GAC, so addiitonally, don't act as if transgenderism is some teenager or adult phenomenon.

So all of Megan Fox's kids, every single one of them, just happen to be transgender?

[Dave22reborn]

I'm simply stating what is motivating people spewing hatred and conspiracies at the LGBT community. Unravelling the motives of someone spewing hatred isn't playing the man and not the ball. Because they're not even trying to debate. They're just spewing hatred.


And I'm explaining why they're spewing hatred. One of the reasons being, they're insecure about their own sexuality. Why else would someone be so obsessed with trannies?

Reporting the news equals being obsessed with trannies......

Saying they shouldn't be in women's sports, or use their locker rooms, means we're insecure about our sexuality. Saying they should stay away from kids, means we're insecure about our sexuality....

Now, you may not know this, but as an actual man, it's only natural, to want to protect women and children.

[Anachron]

God your life must be sad.

Ditto.

[J.L.C.]

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2808707

[Bushmaster]

People didn't come here to dazzle anyone. I joined this board because it was funny and had awesome memes, and it was a place I could learn about and talk about fitness. Then it became...whatever this is.

That's good winny.. because you couldn't anyway lol.

[Dave22reborn]

That's good winny.. because you couldn't anyway lol.

Why would an athlete, with elite, Olympic genetics, come to a forum to learn about fitness???

[jtaylor2010]

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/s...ender-medicine

The background to this interview is important. Finland was among the first countries to adopt the “Dutch protocol” for pediatric gender medicine, which prescribes—in certain restricted cases—the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to treat adolescent gender dysphoria. By 2015, however, Finnish gender specialists, including Kaltiala, were noticing that most of their patients did not match the profile of those treated in the Netherlands and did not meet the Dutch protocol’s relatively strict eligibility requirements for drug treatments. Due to the extremely high rate at which children with gender issues come to terms with their bodies (or “desist”) by adulthood, the Dutch protocol requires patients to have gender dysphoria that begins before puberty and intensifies in adolescence. It also requires them to have no serious co-occurring mental health problems, to undergo at least six months of psychotherapy, and to have the support of their family for hormonal treatments.

Within a few years of their country adopting the Dutch protocol in 2011, however, Finnish researchers noticed a sharp rise in the number of patients referred for services. Most of these patients were teenage girls with no history of dysphoria in childhood, and some 68% had a history of severe psychopathology prior to the emergence of their gender-related distress. During this same time period, the U.K.’s largest pediatric gender clinic, at the Tavistock Centre, witnessed a 3,360% surge in patient referrals between 2009 and 2018. Most of the new patients were females—whose representation in the clinic rose 4,400% during this time frame—with a history of serious psychological problems and no gender dysphoria prior to adolescence. Similar trends were being observed in other countries with pediatric gender clinics, including the United States. In 2018, the American physician-researcher Lisa Littman published a study suggesting that teenage girls with high rates of mental health problems were suddenly declaring a transgender identity, often in friend groups and after prolonged exposure to social media.

A year later, Kaltiala and her Finnish colleagues observed in a peer-reviewed article that “[r]esearch on adolescent onset gender dysphoria is scarce, and optimal treatment options have not been established ... The reasons for the sudden increase in treatment-seeking due to adolescent onset gender dysphoria/transgender identification are not known.” This lack of research, and lingering doubts about the Dutch protocol itself (the only attempt to replicate it in the U.K. failed), led health authorities in Finland, Sweden, and the U.K. to conduct systematic reviews of evidence for the benefits and risks of hormonal interventions.

Systematic reviews represent the highest level of evidence analysis in evidence based medicine. The three European countries that did these reviews independently came to the same conclusion: Due to their severe methodological limitations, studies cited in support of hormonal interventions for adolescents are of “very low” certainty. For health authorities in these countries, this meant that the studies were too unreliable to justify the risks and uncertainties of “gender affirming care.” Sweden, Finland, and England have since placed severe restrictions on access to hormones. Although these countries now allow hormones in a very carefully selected cohort of patients who fulfill the criteria of the Dutch protocol, they do so against the findings of their own systematic reviews. That is because the systematic reviews found the Dutch study, on which the Dutch protocol is based, also provides “very low” certainty evidence. Finland’s Council for Choices in Healthcare recognizes medical transition for minors as “an experimental practice.”



A LOT more available at the link

[J.L.C.]

Most patients first experience gender dysphoria at a young age, with approximately 75% reporting gender dysphoria by age 7. Those patients wait for ~25 years (on average) before beginning gender transition treatments.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2762788

[Dave22reborn]

Most patients first experience gender dysphoria at a young age, with approximately 75% reporting gender dysphoria by age 7. Those patients wait for ~25 years before beginning gender transition treatments.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2762788

Man, all three of Megan Fox's kids must be suffering from gender dysphoria, think of the odds...

[J.L.C.]

Man, all three of Megan Fox's kids must be suffering from gender dysphoria, think of the odds...

Where did you see that all of her kids are trans? What does that have to do with my post?

[LizzieTish]

Who gave the AI algorithm 38+k rep power?

[jtaylor2010]

Man, all three of Megan Fox's kids must be suffering from gender dysphoria, think of the odds...

Don’t mind…just trolling as he always does. Deflecting by bringing up something not related to the thread topic(by talking about middle aged transgenders instead of kids or teens). And posting an absolute trash “study” as always. What is really unreliable?? Surveys. What else is really unreliable?? Mentally ill people. Something else that’s really unreliable?? Human memory(especially when talking about decades in the past). Put em all together and what do you get?? A perfect study for JLC to troll with. It does absolutely nothing to address the point of the topic, or to counter the rapidly growing number of countries that are realizing that gender manipulation of kids and teens is not science(no double blind, placebo controlled trials) and it isn’t medicine(because it causes harm and there isn’t consent….again, kids can’t consent to what they don’t understand).



But you bring up a good point about the prevalence of it in some areas over others…the social contagion aspect is real and growing in America. Hopefully it’ll peak soon and start to recede like it has in other developed nations who realize the harm it does.

[J.L.C.]

Don’t mind…just trolling as he always does. Deflecting by bringing up something not related to the thread topic(by talking about middle aged transgenders instead of kids or teens). And posting an absolute trash “study” as always. What is really unreliable?? Surveys. What else is really unreliable?? Mentally ill people. Something else that’s really unreliable?? Human memory(especially when talking about decades in the past). Put em all together and what do you get?? A perfect study for JLC to troll with. It does absolutely nothing to address the point of the topic, or to counter the rapidly growing number of countries that are realizing that gender manipulation of kids and teens is not science(no double blind, placebo controlled trials) and it isn’t medicine(because it causes harm and there isn’t consent….again, kids can’t consent to what they don’t understand).



But you bring up a good point about the prevalence of it in some areas over others…the social contagion aspect is real and growing in America. Hopefully it’ll peak soon and start to recede like it has in other developed nations who realize the harm it does.

It's broken down by age group.

Note the 12-18yrs line in the table (totals over 4 years) and patients' experience at age 7.

Any confirmation on Megan Fox's kids being trans? Is that somehow related to treatment happening without consent?

[frankdtank20]

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/s...ender-medicine

Due to the extremely high rate at which children with gender issues come to terms with their bodies (or “desist”) by adulthood, the Dutch protocol requires patients to have gender dysphoria that begins before puberty and intensifies in adolescence. It also requires them to have no serious co-occurring mental health problems, to undergo at least six months of psychotherapy, and to have the support of their family for hormonal treatments.

Jeezus dude, actually following that protocol would almost entirely eliminate the issue, which is mostly trans trenders who discover they're in the wrong body after seeing someone they know do the same and get tons of attention for it.

The desist rate reported a couple of decades ago was 80-90%, with almost all of them realizing they're simply gay/lesbian. That high rate was well before claiming to be being trans became trendy. By now it would be 95%, maybe higher.

[uneducated]

Jeezus dude, actually following that protocol would almost entirely eliminate the issue, which is mostly trans trenders who discover they're in the wrong body after seeing someone they know do the same and get tons of attention for it.

The desist rate reported a couple of decades ago was 80-90%, with almost all of them realizing they're simply gay/lesbian. That high rate was well before claiming to be being trans became trendy. By now it would be 95%, maybe higher.

Seems kind of weird to require no other mental health issues. Most trans would suffer depression at least.

I don't think your claim is true or has any basis in reality, frankly. I think it is what you want to believe. Transgenderism has a basis in neurobiology. More people are outing themselves is all it is.

[jtaylor2010]

Jeezus dude, actually following that protocol would almost entirely eliminate the issue, which is mostly trans trenders who discover they're in the wrong body after seeing someone they know do the same and get tons of attention for it.

The desist rate reported a couple of decades ago was 80-90%, with almost all of them realizing they're simply gay/lesbian. That high rate was well before claiming to be being trans became trendy. By now it would be 95%, maybe higher.

100% this. Over time more and more people will realize the harm that has been done by this craziness. It just takes some people longer than others, that’s all. Kind of like lobotomies. Long after many people had realized they were neither science nor medicine, there were still plenty of people reluctant to move on. Same kind of situation, just with a lot more brainwashing.

[frankdtank20]

Seems kind of weird to require no other mental health issues. Most trans would suffer depression at least.

I don't think your claim is true or has any basis in reality, frankly. I think it is what you want to believe. Transgenderism has a basis in neurobiology. More people are outing themselves is all it is.

Strong post to username correlation. More muh feelings don't care about facts. Oh well. The charade is ending anyway. Slower in the US than elsewhere.

[Bodhy]

Reporting the news equals being obsessed with trannies......

Saying they shouldn't be in women's sports, or use their locker rooms, means we're insecure about our sexuality. Saying they should stay away from kids, means we're insecure about our sexuality....

Now, you may not know this, but as an actual man, it's only natural, to want to protect women and children.

That is transphobia. The definition of. And transgenderism isn't a delusion. There's a legitimate biological difference between transgenders and cis-genders.

[uneducated]

Reporting the news equals being obsessed with trannies......

Saying they shouldn't be in women's sports, or use their locker rooms, means we're insecure about our sexuality. Saying they should stay away from kids, means we're insecure about our sexuality....

Now, you may not know this, but as an actual man, it's only natural, to want to protect women and children.

You want to protect women and children by taking away their basic rights and healthcare. Checks out.

[Anachron]

That is transphobia. The definition of. And transgenderism isn't a delusion. There's a legitimate biological difference between transgenders and cis-genders.

Someone needs to look up the definition of the word "transphobia".

The state of academics these days.

[jtaylor2010]

That is transphobia. The definition of. And transgenderism isn't a delusion. There's a legitimate biological difference between transgenders and cis-genders.

1.) Lold at the usual throwing around of “-phobia or -ist” to play the man instead of the ball.

2.) if there’s a biological difference between a person with schizophrenia and a person without schizophrenia, does that mean the schizophrenic isn’t delusional??

3.) you need to write doctors and scientists as soon as possible so we can start identifying these biological differences and immediately know if someone is lying or not when they claim to be transgender. It would prevent tons of harmful interventions and also help us prosecute people who use crazy laws to their advantage. Using your information, when some angsty teenager comes in and says they’re trans we can rapidly test and determine that isn’t the case, so we can guide them towards other treatments with much better track records. We can also test the perverts exposing themselves to females in locker rooms and other places. Good to know.

[uneducated]

1.) Lold at the usual throwing around of “-phobia or -ist” to play the ball instead of the man.

2.) if there’s a biological difference between a person with schizophrenia and a person without schizophrenia, does that mean the schizophrenic isn’t delusional??

3.) you need to write doctors and scientists as soon as possible so we can start identifying these biological differences and immediately know if someone is lying or not when they claim to be transgender. It would prevent tons of harmful interventions and also help us prosecute people who use crazy laws to their advantage. Using your information, when some angsty teenager comes in and says they’re trans we can rapidly test and determine that isn’t the case, so we can guide them towards other treatments with much better track records. We can also test the perverts exposing themselves to females in locker rooms and other places. Good to know.

It's not that sharp yet. The differences are pronounced in large groups. Did you watch that video I linked you of the biologist at Stanford explaining this?

If someone is provocatively exposing themselves to someone, it's already sexual assault. It's a crime.

Have you ever asked yourself how you would respond if your own child came to you and insisted they were transgender? Seriously think about it for a second. We all have an internalized "ick" toward these people from years of systematic transphobia in our culture. But have you ever really asked that? Would you terrorize your child and insist they were wrong? Would you beat them and scream at them and put them in conversion therapy? What if nothing worked? Would you disown your child or kill them? Or would you remember this is a person, your child, and you love them and are there to support them?

Read this and seriously think about it.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/...communities-us



Do these people strike you as con artists? They are a WASP family, just like you, and had they not had a trans kid, they'd have probably behaved exactly like you.

There are many parents like this.

[jtaylor2010]

It's not that sharp yet. The differences are pronounced in large groups. Did you watch that video I linked you of the biologist at Stanford explaining this?

If someone is provocatively exposing themselves to someone, it's already sexual assault. It's a crime.

Have you ever asked yourself how you would respond if your own child came to you and insisted they were transgender? Seriously think about it for a second. We all have an internalized "ick" toward these people from years of systematic transphobia in our culture. But have you ever really asked that? Would you terrorize your child and insist they were wrong? Would you beat them and scream at them and put them in conversion therapy? What if nothing worked? Would you disown your child or kill them? Or would you remember this is a person, your child, and you love them and are there to support them?

Read this and seriously think about it.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/...communities-us



Do these people strike you as con artists? They are a WASP family, just like you, and had they not had a trans kid, they'd have probably behaved exactly like you.

There are many parents like this.

“it isn’t that sharp yet” sounds like it isn’t science at all. If there is a clear, objective, biological difference between a trans person and a cis person then point to it. And I’m not saying there is no difference, I’m saying that if there is then we need to clearly establish the metrics we use to diagnose it. That will help us avoid pushing interventions on people who don’t need it and who will almost certainly be harmed from it. But of course…that isn’t the goal at all. The goal is destruction of normalcy and order. That’s why there are 50+ and counting genders, along with non-binary, asexual, and all the other ridiculousness. Again, I’m not saying that there isn’t a difference. But the legit trans identity is being used as a pawn to push further deterioration of society. And again, I don’t have hate in my heart for trans people. However, I do have a problem with the extremely harmful movement that is pushing this insanity. Until you, bodhy, and others understand the difference in how myself and others like me view this topic then you will never comprehend what we’re saying. You and I both want the same thing. Improved health for all youth and all people. It’s just that I see this push of insanity as harmful to the general population(and trans community), and I can differentiate between a person and a movement. It seems that many on the left get so caught up in the movement that they accept absolutely anything being put forward by it, even if it is harmful medical experiments on children. It’s basically a cult. But I’ve seen you change stances on topics over the years so I expect you will change on this as well at some point. I’m not so sure about some of the others here though.

[uneducated]

“it isn’t that sharp yet” sounds like it isn’t science at all. If there is a clear, objective, biological difference between a trans person and a cis person then point to it. And I’m not saying there is no difference, I’m saying that if there is then we need to clearly establish the metrics we use to diagnose it. That will help us avoid pushing interventions on people who don’t need it and who will almost certainly be harmed from it. But of course…that isn’t the goal at all. The goal is destruction of normalcy and order. That’s why there are 50+ and counting genders, along with non-binary, asexual, and all the other ridiculousness. Again, I’m not saying that there isn’t a difference. But the legit trans identity is being used as a pawn to push further deterioration of society. And again, I don’t have hate in my heart for trans people. However, I do have a problem with the extremely harmful movement that is pushing this insanity. Until you, bodhy, and others understand the difference in how myself and others like me view this topic then you will never comprehend what we’re saying. You and I both want the same thing. Improved health for all youth and all people. It’s just that I see this push of insanity as harmful to the general population(and trans community), and I can differentiate between a person and a movement. It seems that many on the left get so caught up in the movement that they accept absolutely anything being put forward by it, even if it is harmful medical experiments on children. It’s basically a cult. But I’ve seen you change stances on topics over the years so I expect you will change on this as well at some point. I’m not so sure about some of the others here though.

Well the world renowned neurobiologist at Stanford disagrees with you, but ok.

Did you consider the other stuff I said and linked? Did you ask yourself what you would do if your kid insisted he or she was trans?

If I see evidence showing this chit is more harmful than helpful, then obviously I will withdraw my support for it. But I am seeing the opposite from the studies and from so many lived experiences of trans people shared. Are there people who regret it? Yeah. But on average, it seems to work a lot more than it doesn't. Should we find a way to really make sure who is and isn't trans? Absolutely. If we could really test and ID it, that would be very useful for preventing those cases of regret.