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03-25-2024, 05:42 AM #61
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03-25-2024, 09:34 AM #62
Nah I'm not dismissing your gripes with a 60fps mode. My gripe is just your particular wording of "really trash image quality" when that particular line isnt true when the 30fps has pretty damn good IQ as I mentioned lol.
Yes new consoles have been marketing "high framerates" and it's almost fair for console gamers to expect 60fps modes in their games and honestly, I'd love for every game to have all the graphical bells and whistles at 60 fps, but it's just not possible .... The problem is, console's just dont have that sorta power to output games at 4k 60fps consistently for most games (unless you're maybe the platform owner but I digress) ... The issue you have with Rebirth is the graphics in performance mode - Not the performance itself. If we want to read between the lines, the performance mode absolutely does work in rebirth because it is at 60fps, however it's just the IQ/graphics that take a hit and honestly it's just one of the trade-offs of getting higher framerates.
I remember when Scram initially got mocked for saying that games would eventually roll back to quality / 30fps being the "flagship" mode, but he's absolutely right though ... End of the day it's easier to market graphics than framerates and concessions will be made, especially for single player only games where framerates don't really matter all that much.
Cross-gen period spoiled a lot of gamers here with 4k-60 being a standard, but anyone who thought that we've go deep into the gen with 4k-60 with sublime graphics is on a whole lotta cope. You want graphics, too bad you sacrifice high framerate. You want high framerates, too bad you're gonna have to sacrifice the iq/fidelity.Sig line can't be a novel
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03-25-2024, 09:47 AM #63
1. I was talking about trash image quality in Rebirth's performance mode. I didn't think I would have to specify that for the 19th time since we had this discussion numerous times before. A trash performance mode which SE even acknowledged and attempted to fix with this recent patch which ended up doing nothing btw.
2. Scram was never right about games going back to 30 fps modes alone wtf is this assessment? The only example you have of this is literally one game @Dragon's Dogma. One game can never be a basis for such a claim since literally every other game still has a performance mode. You need to show me at least 50% of games being stuck at 30fps for your claim to start having a shred of validity. You're FAR off the mark here.▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
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03-25-2024, 09:52 AM #64
They oversold which console? The PS5? Nobody expected 8k, whoever did must have been a full retard and not worthing paying any mind to. 8k is on the box because it's capable of outputting 8k. There's like 1 or 2 games that does it, as well as 8k movies. Everyone expected just a 4k console, and while not true 4k we do have upscaling that's good enough. Give people good imagine quality like Demon's Souls and everyone is happy for the whole gen.
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...............................R.I.P.................................
.............Aziz "Zyzz" Sergeyevich Shavershian.........
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03-25-2024, 09:52 AM #65
30 fps being the flagship mode as I mentioned. It's clear most games are being marketed and having the quality mode as the default mode.
Performance mode is just a bonus with clear concessions being made to graphics at the expense of performance. Does it hit 60fps? yes ... But at what cost, and that cost seems to be what most people are upset about - However they're still offering you 60fps tho so not they're not outright lying to you perse.Sig line can't be a novel
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03-25-2024, 10:29 AM #66
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03-25-2024, 10:52 AM #67
They didn't oversell chit. The PS5 did exactly what it was supposed to do and was a great piece of hardware for the time it came out. If Rift Apart, Demon's Souls, Plague Tale Requiem (after performance patch), Horizon Forbidden West, Ragnarok could all look and perform so amazingly then the onus is on devs to make games that are optimized well.
Instead we have lazy devs that just throw out a bunch of power hungry slop and expect hardware to just brute force things. How the hell is Sony to blame for that? They could have released a PS5 that was as powerful as a 3080 rig and yall would still be here complaining that consoles were weak because Dragon's Dogma 2 runs like ass on it today.▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
...............................R.I.P.................................
.............Aziz "Zyzz" Sergeyevich Shavershian.........
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03-25-2024, 10:57 AM #68
Shifting goalposts as usual in this thread. Nobody was arguing about "flagship modes" lmfao. Scram's argument was that games would get so demanding there would ONLY be a 30fps mode because games would be unable output at 60 anymore. Why are you being such horrible faith with your arguments?
My claim was that 60fps will be a standard in games this gen and so far that has held true undeniably.▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
...............................R.I.P.................................
.............Aziz "Zyzz" Sergeyevich Shavershian.........
.................₪₪₪₪₪₪1989-2011₪₪₪₪₪₪.............
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03-25-2024, 10:57 AM #69
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03-25-2024, 11:02 AM #70
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03-25-2024, 11:22 AM #71
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Graphics imo aren't the be all end all.
For example the older games, I wouldn't say they were bad graphics, but just outdated. But the gameplay still made it worth it. Some new games I do not like the graphics at all even though it is newer.
For example I still like the graphics of Diablo I, Ocarina of Time even though they are older games.
Hell all the pokemon games on gameboy. it was basically just a bunch of pixels but nobody can say they didn't have a blast, or couldn't have a blast playing those games even now.
but yeah if you're blowing your entire budget on graphics and have no gameplay to show for it, it is basically the equivalent of a polished turd.positivity brah crew
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03-26-2024, 10:43 PM #72
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There certainly is a side of basic bitch consumers who only want pretty graphics, but we're seeing a large increase in games where everything else from story, characters, to performance is mediocre, if not total schit, which is rubbing people the wrong way when said games cost even more now.
Visual showcases will always at least partially serve window dressing that improved the subjective experience, although I think the double edged sword there is just how insanely costly that is becoming for developers/publishers, not only in terms of pure monetary investment, but the long development times that have left the "new" generation rather starved.
Good call, that size creep has become unreal and, like the graphics, has increased development time and cost. On that end, massive worlds have corrupted the developers as well because the vast majority of them don't have anything to add to these huge game worlds to justify their size.
Remember AssCreed Odyssey and how Ubisoft claimed they would pull back on the world size, only to double down on making their game too goddamn big for its own good? Open worlds aren't inherently bad, but too many developers have been drinking the same retarded kool aid that has put oversized worlds on a pedestal across the board, regardless of how (1) appropriate they even are for the game in question and (2) whether the developer is even capable of making a remotely decent open world to begin with.
This is my own observation from the sidelines owning a PC, but the best analogy I can make between the two generation is that it's like they just unlocked the higher settings with little else making a significant enough improvement offset how more games are releasing half-finished, with poor performance, subpar plots/characters, and simply aren't innovating gameplay or AI*.
*We're kind of going backwards because developers have gotten so lazy that they rely on multiplayer games so they don't even have to bother making better AI than what we had over a decade ago.
It's like they're releasing basically the same thing, but now consoles players get to see it with graphics cranked up to "high" (still not ultra), and turn on some ray tracing. Sure, I guess it's technically a leap (or at least can be, e.g. Suicide Squad still looks worse than Arkham Knight) if you're strictly looking at it from a PS4/Xbone --> PS5/XSX standpoint since we're talking a ~10 year gap in hardware.
On the flip side of that, when you consider just how good looking games were either on the PS4/Xbone given their subpar hardware even on release, or especially on high end PCs, we're definitely hitting points of diminishing returns with respect to what reasonable hardware is actually capable of running at an acceptable level. Emphasis on that latter part because as a large number of recent "AAA" games have shown, actually running at an acceptable level is still a tall order.
110%, mate.
All of the bad practices have gotten so out of hand with very little outweighing all of the negatives.
As an aside, I wasn't paying attention to Rise of Ronin, but after checking it out and the complaints... damn, I get it, and that's precisely what I mean: you get these $70 games that barely look better than last gen games, especially if you consider how games back then looked on capable hardware (i.e., not PS4s/Xbones). Although in Rise of the Ronin's case, Rise of Ronin vs Ghost of Tsushima really struggles to match the last gen game, so I guess the PC version will just mog the hell out of it. Plus, Rise of Ronin is guilty of the open world sin TokenV brought up, so I'm sure that factored into the visuals being so mediocre for a PS5 exclusive roughly halfway into the generation.
Games can't even output 4k without having to resort to upscaling trickery, and even they have to sacrifice frame rate unless you're running a high end PC... to maybe hit 60?
Technical capacity is only one side of the equation though, because the brutal reality is that most people won't have setups where they will even be able to discern a difference between 8k and 4k. The industry got too caught up focusing on just resolution, which while absolutely an important factor, has reached its realistic limitation for current technology that still allows a good enough balance between how it looks to the human eye and not bricking the hardware for just daring to run it.
However, something like frame rate, frame pacing, and stuttering, all of which human eyes can unequivocally see no matter the resolution (unless you have the reaction time of someone who shouldn't be playing video games) has become an afterthought in the pursuit of cramming as much technical faff into games that have no business trying to run it when the developers optimization is nowhere up to snuff.
Frankly, Sony in particular could have possibly garnered some good will just pushing out 60fps patches plus maybe some slight resolution sharpening tidying up for PS4 games if they're so devoid of current gen games. I mean, it couldn't hurt to breathe new life to people's old/current libraries on the cheap compared to going through all the effort of trying to "remaster" them if they can't even squeeze out a new title at a reasonable pace. Even then, fat lot of good that did for something like TLOU2.I will stand firm, I refuse to kneel - The fury in me is divine
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03-27-2024, 04:37 PM #73
True, and that later point about Sony is one of the things I have always liked the most about Xbox. They actually bothered to make FPS boost a thing for a lot of the Xbox One titles as well as some 360 titles, heck they did an X enhanced thing for original Xbox and 360 titles as well where they gave them a 4K resolution boost. All that backwards compatibility and back catalog enhancement has been a really big deal to me as someone who generally enjoys a lot of older titles, and I think it shows off how well a lot of games from the 360 and One generation have aged. Performance and resolution enhancement has probably been the biggest thing when it comes to what makes the latest generation of games look better, so much of the technical faff has been hard to notice.
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03-27-2024, 05:39 PM #74
Playing Just Cause 3 right now and the textures aren't even that good but it's better looking than 99% of games nowadays. Mind = blown. I need more games like this.
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03-28-2024, 07:56 AM #75
Honestly, I don't fully remember word to word what scram said, but I just remember he said most games will end up prioritizing 30fps more ... If it's ONLY 30 fps then yeah, sure maybe he might be wrong about that .... But the point still stands that 30fps is increasingly the mode of choice for most devs with 60fps+ modes being there for the sake of it just so that they can say it's there - Especially in single player titles. a GOOD 60fps mode only exists for multiplayer modes and possibly first party games. For the rest of the dev's out there, 30 fps is definitely what they work on most.Sig line can't be a novel
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03-28-2024, 08:42 AM #76
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03-28-2024, 09:28 AM #77
1. I had this argument with Scram and I can 100% guarantee you he said 60fps wouldn't be possible, games would be too powerful and consoles will be forced back to 30fps
2. I don't really care what devs see as their standard mode and which is tacked on. The fact of the matter is that if devs expect their games to sell well, they need performance modes from now on because that's what customers expect and want. You can never put it back in that box, just like you can never go back to 720p gaming. Only GTA 6 can break this rule.
Doesn't matter what they prefer. I'm sure they prefer to sell you 3 hour campaigns for $60 as well but it's about what the customers overwhelmingly want so devs can kick rocks.▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
...............................R.I.P.................................
.............Aziz "Zyzz" Sergeyevich Shavershian.........
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03-28-2024, 09:54 AM #78
Personally, I think so. Take Signalis for example. Indy pixelized type game. Legit one of the best survival horror games of the decade, and it completely flies under peoples radar despite the quality due to being pixelized chit
Should be talked about with RE, SH, and Alien Isolation. People focus too much on pretty games. Most of the time, the games with the best graphics are kind of chit tier like Horizon or the new God of War. Too much focus in the wrong areas (obviously not always, since TLOU2 is great).
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03-28-2024, 10:10 AM #79
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03-28-2024, 12:51 PM #80
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03-28-2024, 12:54 PM #81
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03-29-2024, 06:05 AM #82
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Being on PC, I agree because that's basically what it feels like since PC games don't face the same kind of strict setting limits consoles have in place, and it makes a world of difference when you play older games that can stretch their legs at least a little bit thanks to better hardware.
Sony has been consumed by this pervasive culture where they prioritize visuals and their whole "cinematic experience" to such an insane degree at the expense of everything else (except their budgets and dev times) that it's biting them in the ass. They created unrealistic, unsustainable expectations for their "normie" audience who don't know any better that the reality is how said expectations can't reliably be met - unless you count half a console generation going by with a handful of titles.
What's worse is how Sony (and Microsoft) already has a ton of really good looking games - they just happen to be from the PS3 - PS4. Sony could and should have bit the bullet to get a grapple on some real PS3 emulation tech, let people play their old games or even do the really smart thing and sell those games digitally a la carte. They got greedy by locking all of that behind the most expensive PS+ tier while ignoring how that locks out so much of the market due to the equally greedy nature of streaming, only instead of money, it sucks up gigabytes of data that eat into people's data caps. When their primary audience for that kind of service is the US, you'd think they'd have thought through how our internet is totally fukked with ISPs charging out the ass if you exceed a measly ~1TB cap, or pay their extortionary premium fees to remove them.
Hell, if you want to go full 4D chess here, they could have come up with their own PS3 emulation, packaged it into their own PC application/storefront, and gotten 100% margins through it selling PC players a Playstation Store over Steam/GOG/ect. One of the reasons I went with an i9-14900k for my upcoming build is because it's such a single-core beast that I could even emulate Sony's PS3 games myself since they can't be arsed to find out a way to sell me their own games.
That isn't even getting to how their PS1-PS2 games could benefit from enhancements while still being more than playable, especially with the constant, i.e. not just a fad, appeal for retro/retro-styled games.
The PS4 Pro introduced the whole performance vs graphics mode, right? You really cannot put that back in the box, and frankly, it's good that console players are now seeing how nice it is to actually be given choice and want that as a standard.
With how much MS, Sony, and some developers love to jerk themselves off over how "accessible" they are, you'd think that offering performance modes would be seen as such (same thing with more options like being able to disable motion blur, adjust field of vision, and all that, but baby steps I guess).
Pretty much what I was thinking; developers and publishers are already selling unfinished alpha versions that they might never even bother patching up to beta status, all while somehow managing a fully functional, feature complete in-game shop that could run 120 frames per second.
They're more willing to test how far they can take things for the least amount of effort than to test running their games at a stable frame rate.
Expanding on the above "accessibility" infatuation these days, I don't want to hear a developer gush about their color blind mode if their frame pacing could give you a migraine, and Sony and MS should be holding developers to a higher standard than, "it doesn't brick the console on startup."I will stand firm, I refuse to kneel - The fury in me is divine
My dark grave awaits, my fate is revealed - But I'm not afraid to die
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03-29-2024, 06:36 AM #83
Different preferences, really. For me, I like great graphics because it adds to the immersion. Chit graphics can actually ruin a game for me. Witcher 3 came close but I forgave CD Red for otherwise making such an incredibly rich and well made game, story and lore wise.
But the graphics obsessed don't ruin it for gamers who like creative gameplay. It's like music, there's more than one preference. Like RDR2, Ghosts of Tsuhisma, they're not hugely novel in terms of gameplay but the graphics and storytelling were mind-blowing.
But....for things like horror, or more unique experiences in terms of gameplay, I've found Indie titles to really deliver there. Thing is to not rely on triple-A games to give you the ultimatel gaming experience. They're designed to cater for the maximum amount of gamers so they stick to a preferred formulae.
Just like Hollywood isn't the be all and end all of movies, neither are the big studios all there is to games.
Having said that, Death Stranding looked nice, fascinating story idea but it turned out to be a clusterfuk of total fuk.Back off, Warchild.
Seriously.
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03-29-2024, 06:56 AM #84
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