Some doubts about program balance

[Keyshade]

I stumbled upon an old thread about program balancing and I had some questions while reading it that I couldn't find answers to despite skimming through several of its comments.

Does a DB Row with one hand on the bench count as a horizontal pull, and does a DB Row with two hands rowing count as an upward pull?

Is there a widely accepted agreement on the 2:1 ratio in favor of pulls?

If I'm doing:
Bench Press
Standing Press

DB Row
Face Pull
Chin Up
Pull Up

Am I making a programming mistake by including two downward pulls without any upward pull?

This is the part of the thread I'm referring to. I can't post links. The name is: Programming Balance Made Easy

There are two main things I look at for a balanced routine.

1. Hips-How well are the lower back, quads, hams, abs and glutes balanced.
2. Shoulders-How well the back/rear delts are balanced to the chest/anterior delts.

Let’s start with hips since they are relatively simple. For ham/quad balance you want to pair quad movements with ham movements at a 1:1 ratio. Same goes for direct ab work and lower back. Glutes generally get enough work, but some people need glute specific lifts(case by case basis.)

Shoulder health is a lot more complex. For starters you want 2xmore pulls than presses or chest work (For simplicity's sake we're going to consider chest isos as a press.) So depending on how many presses you have it dictates how many exercises you have for your back. If you have 3 presses you need 6 back exercises. If you have 4 presses you need 8...etc.

You also need to balance directional pulling to adequately develop all of the muscles attached to your scapula (17 of them.) There are a few exercises that must be in a routine like a press, postural pull like face pull or reverse fly, levator scap exercise, serratus anterior exercise...etc.

I hate to even talk about beginner routines because beginners have no business attempting to write anything. With that said, a lot of you are going to do it anyway so you might as well have a decent template to work with.
Intermediate Upper/Lower Template

Monday-Upper Body
1-2 presses (OHP, incline, flat bench, dips)
2-4 pulls being
1 upward pull (DL, shrugs, BOR)
1-2 horizontal pull (t bar rows, pendlays, wide grip seated row…basically anything with elbows flared 45 degrees or more rowed to chest. One must be a postural pull like face pulls or reverse flies)
1 downward pull (lat pulldowns, chin ups, pull ups)
Note: You can get away with 3 pulls and 2 presses if you have a DL variant on lower day
1-2 isos (curls, any tricep iso, but dips and CGBP don’t count)

Tuesday-Lower Body
1-2 quad dominant lift (squats, leg press, lunges)
1-2 ham dominant lift (RDL, SLDL, good morning, leg curl)
1 calf iso (standing calf raises, seated calf raises)
1 direct ab workout (ab wheel rollouts, crunches, any ab machine)
1 optional glute exercise (hip thrusts, ABduction)

[air2fakie]

You may be better off not doing your own programming.

[radrd]

You may be better off not doing your own programming.

This was my first thought as well.

[air2fakie]

This was my first thought as well.

It's actually right there in the link OP posted: "I hate to even talk about beginner routines because beginners have no business attempting to write anything."

He must've missed that part.

[Camarija]

Based on your entries in the group thread you're already on the right track brother!

But if you're interested in making a 3 day fullbody based on these suggestions;

The Horizontal Pulls here are meant to be less like this:


They're meant to be more like this:


They're both exagerated extremes, but hope that makes sense

......

The DB row with 2 hands, assuming you're standing, it depends if your upper body is parallel with the floor or not.

If you're likely angled upwards, it's likely an upwards pull, even if you pull with elbows out instead of the J arc motion.


------

The 2:1 ratio isn't widely accepted, but I can tell you from personal experience, once you start adding extra pushing volume without balancing it out, you better watch out for injuries.

1:1 is fine if your volume and intensity isn't insane

-----

For your example of pulls, yeah, probably choose pullups or chin ups for your rotation, not both.

------

If you're doing weighted 45 hypers instead of RDLs, you probably want a heavier upward pull in there, like medium grip T Bar Rows.



And then one of Chin Ups or Pull Ups. Doesn't REALLY matter, but try to practice that J Arc if you can, if you can't, just do Pulldowns with appropriate weight for that J Arc pulldown

Last 2 horizontal pulls might be something like:
Face Pulls
Chest Supported Elbows Out DB Rows

[Keyshade]

Based on your entries in the group thread you're already on the right track brother!

Thanks a lot John. I really appreciate those words and the detailed reply. By the way, congrats on the wedding!

But if you're interested in making a 3 day fullbody based on these suggestions;

I'm happy with upper/lower split. I'm interested in learning why things are done so step by step I'll be able of doing everything on my own as I see you guys do.

They're both exagerated extremes, but hope that makes sense

Yeah, I think I've got it perfectly. Basically any pull that goes straight to the chest with elbows pointing outward.

So I guess things like Pendlay, Lat Pulldown Bar Cable Row, Bench Row or Chest Supported T Bar / Hammer Strenght / Elbows Out DB.

From what I'm understanding horizontal and downward pulls seem to focus exclusively on the upper body whereas upward pull aim to engage the entire posterior chain. So it doesn't matter if I choose a chest supported or machine row for my horizontal pull but I would be better off doing upward pull involving my legs. Does that make sense?

For quads/hams 1:1 ratio. Are lunges always consider as a quad exercise? I'm thinking in long vertical lunges which I feel like they emphasize the posterior chain.

And then one of Chin Ups or Pull Ups. Doesn't REALLY matter, but try to practice that J Arc if you can, if you can't, just do Pulldowns with appropriate weight for that J Arc pulldown

Do you mean by J Arc doing a scapular retraction, sticking the chest out, and trying to touch the bar with it as you pull up?

[Camarija]

The reason 3 day fullbody is done at first is to focus on only a handful of exercises and do them as often at possible while still increasing the load / intensity each time.

When you split into upper lower there are more exercises, so less specialization.

It's the fastest way to get your main compound lifts up.

-----

For the horizontal vs upwards pulls, you could decide to go heavy on Pendlay rows instead, which are posterior chain heavy, and counted as a horizontal pull here.

I was just suggesting T Bar rows because you can go heavier and don't have to worry too much about keeping your back parallel with the floor. Just grip it and rip it. Plus it's a great force curve and lights up the whole back.

----

Lunges are generally considered quad dominant due to knee flexion, but if you take longer steps and bend forward at the hips it's probably more hip dominant / posterior chain. Just push with your glutes.

----

I'll take a video of what I mean by the J Arc, but conceptually i'm talking about shoulder extension.

From a dead hang, where your elbows go is what matters here

If you pull your elbows straight under your armpits, you're not getting much lat involvement.

If you sweep your elbows forwards, instead of downward, you will pull your body in an arc, maximizing your lat involvement.

One more visualization, think you're doing a body weight straight arm lat pulldown

[paulinkansas]

I do bent over dumb bell rows in 2 variations. 1 with my palms in the X axis, and another with my palms in the Y axis. For you 'tards that do not comprehend the difference, go back to school and study geography and geology.

[radrd]

I do bent over dumb bell rows in 2 variations. 1 with my foot in my mouth, and the other while standing on my head. For you 'tards that do not comprehend the difference, go back to school and study 20th century literature and home economics.