Are Humans Innately Spiritual??

[jtaylor2010]

https://www.amazon.com/Awakened-Brai.../dp/B08R96PSYZ


Whether it’s meditation or a walk in nature, reading a sacred text or saying a prayer, there are many ways to tap into a heightened awareness of the world around you and your place in it. In The Awakened Brain, psychologist Dr. Lisa Miller shows you how.

Weaving her own deeply personal journey of awakening with her groundbreaking research, Dr. Miller’s book reveals that humans are universally equipped with a capacity for spirituality and that our brains become more resilient and robust as a result of it. For leaders in business and government, truth-seekers, parents, healers, educators, and any person confronting life’s biggest questions, The Awakened Brain combines cutting-edge science (from MRI studies to genetic research, epidemiology, and more) with on-the-ground application for people of all ages and from all walks of life, illuminating the surprising science of spirituality and how to engage it in our lives:

The awakened decision is the better decision. With an awakened perception, we are more creative, collaborative, ethical, and innovative.

The awakened brain is the healthier brain. An engaged spiritual life enhances grit, optimism, and resilience while providing insulation against addiction, trauma, and depression.

The awakened life is the inspired life. Loss, uncertainty, and even trauma are the gateways by which we are invited to move beyond merely coping with hardship to transcend into a life of renewal, healing, joy, and fulfillment.

Absorbing, uplifting, and ultimately enlightening, The Awakened Brain is a conversation-starting saga of scientific discovery packed with counterintuitive findings and practical advice on concrete ways to access your innate spirituality and build a life of meaning and contribution.

[jtaylor2010]

Spoiler alert






The answer is yes

[Bodhy]

Yes, I agree. I think a persistent idea in modernity that is just wrong, is the notion that spiritual and religious notions are ones that are conscientiously invented by a rational mind out of "insecurity" with the unknown.


I had a thesis chapter which revolved around this in part, from a purely cognitive science and anthropological perspective, though.

[dakensta]

Cool copypasta OP.
What do you think?

[XterraRob]

Yes, I agree. I think a persistent idea in modernity that is just wrong, is the notion that spiritual and religious notions are ones that are conscientiously invented by a rational mind out of "insecurity" with the unknown.

I had a thesis chapter which revolved around this in part, from a purely cognitive science and anthropological perspective, though.

Care to share?

[miscinbro]

Care to share?

I like how your religious nature is on display here. Bodhy is bad so you attack.

[miscerForLulz]

Yes, they did a study on children and concluded that if you leave them alone, they will come to believe there is a God.

London: Human beings have natural tendencies to believe in God and life after death, according to a three-year international research project directed by two academics at the University of Oxford.

The 1.9 million pounds project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures.

The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in God and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind, a university release said.

[Austanian]

There is a natural tendency to hope there is something after life.
Explain away the unknown.

There are also strong cultural benefits from having an organization that grounds cultures and traditions to very slow moving/ constant values.

[HMFIC_BROWSIN]

Yes - but in group-think ways, the spirituality is probably more rooted in community than spirituality.

Take the tranny movement. People suddenly became obsessed with this idea as it became pop-culture subject. They were able to be part of a community by adopting some "victim status" that anchors them to a very specific group.

being associated with a group increases your chances of survival exponentially. Being a part of something bigger than yourself contributes to feelings of security.

People do it with politics, religion, law, LGBTBBQ+3-5+69, etc etc etc.

[Audioslave]

https://www.amazon.com/Awakened-Brai.../dp/B08R96PSYZ


Whether it’s meditation or a walk in nature, reading a sacred text or saying a prayer, there are many ways to tap into a heightened awareness of the world around you and your place in it. In The Awakened Brain, psychologist Dr. Lisa Miller shows you how.

Weaving her own deeply personal journey of awakening with her groundbreaking research, Dr. Miller’s book reveals that humans are universally equipped with a capacity for spirituality and that our brains become more resilient and robust as a result of it. For leaders in business and government, truth-seekers, parents, healers, educators, and any person confronting life’s biggest questions, The Awakened Brain combines cutting-edge science (from MRI studies to genetic research, epidemiology, and more) with on-the-ground application for people of all ages and from all walks of life, illuminating the surprising science of spirituality and how to engage it in our lives:

The awakened decision is the better decision. With an awakened perception, we are more creative, collaborative, ethical, and innovative.

The awakened brain is the healthier brain. An engaged spiritual life enhances grit, optimism, and resilience while providing insulation against addiction, trauma, and depression.

The awakened life is the inspired life. Loss, uncertainty, and even trauma are the gateways by which we are invited to move beyond merely coping with hardship to transcend into a life of renewal, healing, joy, and fulfillment.

Absorbing, uplifting, and ultimately enlightening, The Awakened Brain is a conversation-starting saga of scientific discovery packed with counterintuitive findings and practical advice on concrete ways to access your innate spirituality and build a life of meaning and contribution.

I didn't see the video but this is written like an introduction to a cult. Being spiritual makes you "awakened?" Many would argue the exact opposite. It's such a bias take it's hard to even take seriously.

I think it makes sense that people find ways to comfort themselves, and spirituality might help some people with that. A lot of times people turn to it when things are tough; death, divorce, illness... hell, if you're in prison for the rest of your life what else do you have to cling to? These tend to be the times when people pray and become more spiritual because it's easier to take it out of your hands and not have to face the harsh reality in front of you. It's a better alternative than turning to drugs or alcohol though.

[jtaylor2010]

Cool copypasta OP.
What do you think?

Haven’t read the book(which the copypasta is a description of) so can’t comment on that. As far as the video, I think she makes good points about humans being naturally inclined to tap into the spiritual aspect of human existence. And I’d say this is more apparent in children, who see and connect to the wonder of the world. Society, and in particular modern society, quickly wears away at that connection though. She highlights things that can help restore it though, like prayer, meditation, time outside in nature, reading spiritual texts, and other activities. She also points out studies which have shown very clear benefits of people who engage in these types of practices while building and maintaining a connection to a higher power. Things like cortical thickness in the brains and other benefits that make people more resilient to all types of adversities and even less prone to depression. So it isn’t just the mind, but also the brain itself and other physical aspects which benefit, and which the benefits can be somewhat quantified. Again, connection to Source is a huge(some would say key) aspect of human existence. By not tapping into that we do not live up to our full potential.

But again I haven’t read the book so can’t speak to her concepts or studies in depth but I do plan to add it to my reading list.

Yes - but in group-think ways, the spirituality is probably more rooted in community than spirituality.

Take the tranny movement. People suddenly became obsessed with this idea as it became pop-culture subject. They were able to be part of a community by adopting some "victim status" that anchors them to a very specific group.

being associated with a group increases your chances of survival exponentially. Being a part of something bigger than yourself contributes to feelings of security.

People do it with politics, religion, law, LGBTBBQ+3-5+69, etc etc etc.

But true spirituality and connection with Source is beneficial and provides strength, peace, resilience, and lots of other benefits. Go look at the average person who tries to fill that void by engaging in groupthink or communal activities centered around Man. The typical leftists who are most militant in their following of clown world, climate agendas, “equity”, or whatever else is being promoted are a perfect example. They do not come off as mentally strong. They are not grounded. They aren’t full of peace, they have anxiety through the roof.They aren’t resilient, they are so weak they demand safe spaces.


So if it was just a communal thing then lots of groups would enjoy the benefits of a connection with God. But we don’t see that. And actually, like I pointed out above, trying to fill the void by following Man not only fails to bring the same benefits, it often makes things much worse.

[gregxy]

They say if you put a man in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean even an atheist will "find god".

[Irezumi]

Yet another example of our overwhelming sense of self relevance...I personally don't think we're as important as we think (in the grand scheme of things). Question to the folks here who believe in an afterlife as im genuinely interested in your opinion..do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest....or should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in the afterlife? No right answers..im not trying to convince anyone either way lol...just curious on what you guys think.

[miscerForLulz]

Yet another example of our overwhelming sense of self relevance...I personally don't think we're as important as we think (in the grand scheme of things). Question to the folks here who believe in an afterlife as im genuinely interested in your opinion..do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest....or should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in the afterlife? No right answers..im not trying to convince anyone either way lol...just curious on what you guys think.

Hmm honestly no answer...it's just hard to think of it in that way (since I'm certain there will be one, not here to convince you lol). Would I care less perhaps? There wouldn't be a purpose to me - think of those who have already gone centuries ago and mute today.

Interesting question though

[Irezumi]

Hmm honestly no answer...it's just hard to think of it in that way (since I'm certain there will be one, not here to convince you lol). Would I care less perhaps? There wouldn't be a purpose to me - think of those who have already gone centuries ago and mute today.

Interesting question though

There will always be purpose...all life has purpose in that we are required to abide by what nature intends...I believe you meant meaning...and I can understand that because as someone who believes in God, your one and only meaning is to meet him after you pass...I guess it's easier for me since the concept of meaning isn't relevant to any aspect of my life but yeah...that's just 1 question I'm interested in knowing from people who believe in the afterlife.

[miscerForLulz]

There will always be purpose...all life has purpose in that we are required to abide by what nature intends...I believe you meant meaning...and I can understand that because as someone who believes in God, your one and only meaning is to meet him after you pass...I guess it's easier for me since the concept of meaning isn't relevant to any aspect of my life but yeah...that's just 1 question I'm interested in knowing from people who believe in the afterlife.

Yeah maybe meaning is a better word.

I just think long term..hence the example on people prior to me...they were laughing, crying, eating yesterday and all the other things in life and today have been gone for centuries.

[jtaylor2010]

Yet another example of our overwhelming sense of self relevance...I personally don't think we're as important as we think (in the grand scheme of things). Question to the folks here who believe in an afterlife as im genuinely interested in your opinion..do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest....or should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in the afterlife? No right answers..im not trying to convince anyone either way lol...just curious on what you guys think.

No, I don’t see any way that life would have more meaning or value if it is the single shot at existence we get compared to an afterlife.

Also, I think you are wording it in a way to skew it towards your view. No knock because people basically always do that, but there is more to it than “trying to figure out your meaning and being good simply to be rewarded”. It could be to serve God. It could be to learn various lessons that can only be learned through experiencing life in many different forms(including living as an atheist disconnected from God). It could be to come here and fulfill a very specific role that you’re required for in a much bigger picture. Could be tons of different things. And either way, any value or meaning you can get during a single life on Earth, you could always increase meaning and value by making it part of a bigger picture. For example you say “live life to the fullest” for the single life approach, but you could easily do that while believing in an afterlife. Just because I think there is more to experience after death doesn’t mean I fail to make the most of this life. No matter where I go or what I experience, it seems very very unlikely that I’ll get to live this life again. And with that being the case I need to make the most of it.

So again, I don’t see how viewing it as my only existence ever would make it more meaningful or valuable.

[Irezumi]

No, I don’t see any way that life would have more meaning or value if it is the single shot at existence we get compared to an afterlife.

Also, I think you are wording it in a way to skew it towards your view. No knock because people basically always do that, but there is more to it than “trying to figure out your meaning and being good simply to be rewarded”. It could be to serve God. It could be to learn various lessons that can only be learned through experiencing life in many different forms(including living as an atheist disconnected from God). It could be to come here and fulfill a very specific role that you’re required for in a much bigger picture. Could be tons of different things. And either way, any value or meaning you can get during a single life on Earth, you could always increase meaning and value by making it part of a bigger picture. For example you say “live life to the fullest” for the single life approach, but you could easily do that while believing in an afterlife. Just because I think there is more to experience after death doesn’t mean I fail to make the most of this life. No matter where I go or what I experience, it seems very very unlikely that I’ll get to live this life again. And with that being the case I need to make the most of it.

So again, I don’t see how viewing it as my only existence ever would make it more meaningful or valuable.

I get it and respect your constructive criticism lol..but honestly...I don't ever try to skew anything towards my views because I simply don't care what people think. I honestly don't even care to have any discussions on objective concepts. Only absolutes and Inevitables. I get that you would assume I'm trying to prove something but honestly lol...Im not because I simply don't care. I don't believe in right or wrong, good and evil. I simply am interested in the opinions of others as it's a world of knowledge for me.

[jtaylor2010]

I get it and respect your constructive criticism lol..but honestly...I don't ever try to skew anything towards my views because I simply don't care what people think. I honestly don't even care to have any discussions on objective concepts. Only absolutes and Inevitables. I get that you would assume I'm trying to prove something but honestly lol...Im not because I simply don't care. I don't believe in right or wrong, good and evil. I simply am interested in the opinions of others as it's a world of knowledge for me.

I didn’t say you were trying to skew it and I didn’t say you were trying to prove anything.


But go back and read how you worded it.


“do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest



....or should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in the afterlife?”

[Irezumi]

[QUOTE=jtaylor2010;1690725403]I didn’t say you were trying to skew it and I didn’t say you were trying to prove anything.


But go back and read how you worded it.


“do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest



....or [b]should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in


No you're right...I can see things from your perspective...it wasn't my aim though. I can appreciate the paradox in having religious/spiritual conversations with folks who are set in their ways lol (just like I am) which is why I never attempt to sell my views...im just fascinated in different opinions. Being mentally challenged is something I truly covet.

[Audioslave]

Haven’t read the book(which the copypasta is a description of) so can’t comment on that. As far as the video, I think she makes good points about humans being naturally inclined to tap into the spiritual aspect of human existence. And I’d say this is more apparent in children, who see and connect to the wonder of the world. Society, and in particular modern society, quickly wears away at that connection though. She highlights things that can help restore it though, like prayer, meditation, time outside in nature, reading spiritual texts, and other activities. She also points out studies which have shown very clear benefits of people who engage in these types of practices while building and maintaining a connection to a higher power. Things like cortical thickness in the brains and other benefits that make people more resilient to all types of adversities and even less prone to depression. So it isn’t just the mind, but also the brain itself and other physical aspects which benefit, and which the benefits can be somewhat quantified. Again, connection to Source is a huge(some would say key) aspect of human existence. By not tapping into that we do not live up to our full potential.

But again I haven’t read the book so can’t speak to her concepts or studies in depth but I do plan to add it to my reading list.






But true spirituality and connection with Source is beneficial and provides strength, peace, resilience, and lots of other benefits. Go look at the average person who tries to fill that void by engaging in groupthink or communal activities centered around Man. The typical leftists who are most militant in their following of clown world, climate agendas, “equity”, or whatever else is being promoted are a perfect example. They do not come off as mentally strong. They are not grounded. They aren’t full of peace, they have anxiety through the roof.They aren’t resilient, they are so weak they demand safe spaces.


So if it was just a communal thing then lots of groups would enjoy the benefits of a connection with God. But we don’t see that. And actually, like I pointed out above, trying to fill the void by following Man not only fails to bring the same benefits, it often makes things much worse.

I don't really care if someone is spiritual but you're essentially putting down those who aren't, hence the overwhelming bias here.

The biggest issue with spirituality is that it provides no real answers. Unfortunately, it only provides answers from humans, which means everything about it is inherently flawed. Now you might believe the ten commandments came from God - I don't. I think they came from a human, hence a flawed outlined of rules.

You can't actually find answers from God because God doesn't actually speak to us (assuming such an entity even exists), so you have to get your answers from religion. Once you go that route you are submitting to the rules of humans; inherently flawed humans making inherently flawed rules/ laws.

And I'm not saying being part of a religion is a bad thing just because it is flawed. Everything we are part of is flawed from our sports teams to our government. But my issue is that it distorts reality and gives us a false sense of being which is usually used and capitalized by other humans - not by God.

Now I always think it's good to strive to learn more about our existence, however I think that is best spent learning more about our universe and what else is out there rather than reading the Bible, kneeling, praying, etc.

But like I said, I don't care if someone is spiritual or religious. I just don't like it when they judge other people for not being spiritual or religious and then get offended when they get attacked in these types of arguments. If people find solace and strength in religious and spirituality, then I'm 100% for it. But this will not be the answer for all people, including myself.

[jtaylor2010]

I don't really care if someone is spiritual but you're essentially putting down those who aren't, hence the overwhelming bias here.

The biggest issue with spirituality is that it provides no real answers. Unfortunately, it only provides answers from humans, which means everything about it is inherently flawed. Now you might believe the ten commandments came from God - I don't. I think they came from a human, hence a flawed outlined of rules.

You can't actually find answers from God because God doesn't actually speak to us (assuming such an entity even exists), so you have to get your answers from religion. Once you go that route you are submitting to the rules of humans; inherently flawed humans making inherently flawed rules/ laws.

And I'm not saying being part of a religion is a bad thing just because it is flawed. Everything we are part of is flawed from our sports teams to our government. But my issue is that it distorts reality and gives us a false sense of being which is usually used and capitalized by other humans - not by God.

Now I always think it's good to strive to learn more about our existence, however I think that is best spent learning more about our universe and what else is out there rather than reading the Bible, kneeling, praying, etc.

But like I said, I don't care if someone is spiritual or religious. I just don't like it when they judge other people for not being spiritual or religious and then get offended when they get attacked in these types of arguments. If people find solace and strength in religious and spirituality, then I'm 100% for it. But this will not be the answer for all people, including myself.

How did I put down people who aren’t spiritual??

Also, you didn’t counter any of the arguments for the benefits that spirituality provides. All you did was sh!t on religion and to a lesser extent any belief that humans can connect with God.

[jtaylor2010]

I didn’t say you were trying to skew it and I didn’t say you were trying to prove anything.


But go back and read how you worded it.


“do you feel your life would have more "value" if you knew for sure that there is no afterlife...like you truly know you have 1 life to live and should experience said life to the fullest



....or [b]should you spend that life attempting to figure out your meaning and being decent simply to be awarded in

No you're right...I can see things from your perspective...it wasn't my aim though. I can appreciate the paradox in having religious/spiritual conversations with folks who are set in their ways lol (just like I am) which is why I never attempt to sell my views...im just fascinated in different opinions. Being mentally challenged is something I truly covet.

No worries…I didn’t really take your post as you trying to convince anyone, and like I said everyone just naturally words their statements and questions through their lens so I wasn’t singling you out.


I do think it is an interesting conversation, and has much more potential than the usual existence of God vs. no existence of God arguments we’ve seen on here over the years. And even for those who don’t have a belief in God I think she brings up good points about the benefits that accompany the belief. Also, humans have a natural tendency to lean towards that view, that’s why religion and spirituality is seen in practically every culture in every time for as long as humans have existed. To narrow it down to the simplest “oh it’s just for comfort” and dismissing it with no further thought causes many to miss an opportunity to really dive into the various aspects of it and consider it from lots of different angles.

[Audioslave]

How did I put down people who aren’t spiritual??

Also, you didn’t counter any of the arguments for the benefits that spirituality provides. All you did was sh!t on religion and to a lesser extent any belief that humans can connect with God.

You of course had to tie people who aren't spiritual to being involved in group think, needing safe spaces, or whatever. You used it as a way to attack liberals, when their perception is the exact same of the right being involved in group think and living in an echo chamber.... no difference.

I already said that spirituality can provide certain benefits to certain people; usually people facing difficult challenges they are unable to handle, so they turn to something greater than them or the situation for help. But it also carries substantial pitfalls which are being ignored. You talk about activities based around "Man" yet spirituality and religion are solely created by man, therefore based around man, and designed for man. You can say that it is for a "God," however if that God is an image made by man, then it does nothing but to help serve and gratify man in times of needing to feel good. Sure, praying to God might help you feel good but that is what the mechanism is created for. It doesn't make it real. Thinking about having sex with a woman and masturbating might make you feel good too... but you're still not f**king a woman. Does masturbating release tension and can it be healthy for you? Absolutely. Similar with religion and spirituality. It can make you feel good but that is what it is engineered to do... it still doesn't make it real. It is simply a tool designed by man for man, not by god or for god.

Once again, does it have benefits? Sure, it can make you feel good. But it can also take you down a rabbit hole where you actually fall into a system of religion and begin to follow a path created by other humans because you believe in the unexplainable. Your perception of reality and reasoning can be distorted. Those who believe the ten commandment actually came from God and weren't a human creation. You start to believe in the religious teachings and begin to put your being and identity into some other person's creative thinking. Once you fall into that trap you're subject to believe in anything.

But spirituality itself is not necessarily a bad thing... in moderation... and depending on one's definition of spirituality. So long as one understands what it actually is and it's purpose it can be a beneficial tool from time to time when it is needed to calm oneself. But if you're not spiritual, then that is fine too. I do not consider myself a spiritual person and I think a lot of it is because I am much more accepting of my fate in this world. I don't struggle that much with death, depression, anxiety, etc. If I did, I can see how spirituality might calm me and make me a healthier person. But I believe I see things for what they are and handle them accordingly. The idea that there may not be an afterlife scares the living crap out of some people, and those people need assurances that there is something greater than themselves so they will submit to religion or a cult or whatever they need to calm themselves of their fears. Some people are willing to accept that maybe this is it and move forward in a healthy way without needing anything more.

[jtaylor2010]

You of course had to tie people who aren't spiritual to being involved in group think, needing safe spaces, or whatever. You used it as a way to attack liberals, when their perception is the exact same of the right being involved in group think and living in an echo chamber.... no difference.

That was in response to someone who said that the benefits mainly come from then communal aspect and suggested lots of other groups can get the same benefits without the spiritual aspect involved. So I pointed out how lots of people in those groups suffer from higher rates of depression, anxiety, addiction, and many other issues. That would suggest there is more to it than just the community and belonging aspect of it. I never said all atheists or non-religious/spiritual people are in that group, and I just used leftists because they are most obvious example in today’s society.

I already said that spirituality can provide certain benefits to certain people; usually people facing difficult challenges they are unable to handle, so they turn to something greater than them or the situation for help. But it also carries substantial pitfalls which are being ignored. You talk about activities based around "Man" yet spirituality and religion are solely created by man, therefore based around man, and designed for man. You can say that it is for a "God," however if that God is an image made by man, then it does nothing but to help serve and gratify man in times of needing to feel good. Sure, praying to God might help you feel good but that is what the mechanism is created for. It doesn't make it real. Thinking about having sex with a woman and masturbating might make you feel good too... but you're still not f**king a woman. Does masturbating release tension and can it be healthy for you? Absolutely. Similar with religion and spirituality. It can make you feel good but that is what it is engineered to do... it still doesn't make it real. It is simply a tool designed by man for man, not by god or for god.

It does more than make you feel good. Again, it makes you mentally and physically healthier and happier(and feeling good and being happy are two different things). It also seems that humans are programmed to lean towards that, and that having a spiritual aspect to human experience is the natural state. You can say it’s all make believe or try to inject the existence of God into the conversation, but either way you look at it, these two things are true. 1.) humans are generally naturally inclined to believe in a Higher Power, and 2.) incorporating spiritual practices into life results in a healthier, happier person way more often than not.

Once again, does it have benefits? Sure, it can make you feel good. But it can also take you down a rabbit hole where you actually fall into a system of religion and begin to follow a path created by other humans because you believe in the unexplainable. Your perception of reality and reasoning can be distorted. Those who believe the ten commandment actually came from God and weren't a human creation. You start to believe in the religious teachings and begin to put your being and identity into some other person's creative thinking. Once you fall into that trap you're subject to believe in anything.

But spirituality itself is not necessarily a bad thing... in moderation... and depending on one's definition of spirituality. So long as one understands what it actually is and it's purpose it can be a beneficial tool from time to time when it is needed to calm oneself. But if you're not spiritual, then that is fine too. I do not consider myself a spiritual person and I think a lot of it is because I am much more accepting of my fate in this world. I don't struggle that much with death, depression, anxiety, etc. If I did, I can see how spirituality might calm me and make me a healthier person. But I believe I see things for what they are and handle them accordingly. The idea that there may not be an afterlife scares the living crap out of some people, and those people need assurances that there is something greater than themselves so they will submit to religion or a cult or whatever they need to calm themselves of their fears. Some people are willing to accept that maybe this is it and move forward in a healthy way without needing anything more.

I think we agree more than disagree on this last part. The main difference is that it appears you view it as mainly a crutch needed by weak people whereas I view it more as something that comes natural to most humans in a natural environment and can enhance anyone’s life, not just someone needing to get through a tough time. And to view the other side of the coin(of the weak crutch view of spirituality), it could be said that non-spiritual people cling to their views because it removes a level of accountability and also allows them to view themselves as stronger than believers. In actuality there is a lot more to it than that on both sides of the coin.

[isingmodel]

Broadly yes, humans naturally try and seek causational explanations and ascribe purpose to phenomena that we observe, and in the absence of rational explanations (such as those presented by scientific enquiry and result) we will tend to defer to whatever metaphysical conjecture-soup that either gives us a personal sense of comfort, and/or aligns with some basic pattern recognition traits that we (somewhat innately) have but that may be completely inappropriate or irrational in that scenario.

At a very basic level this is why children will often ascribe a purpose to mundane everyday things, something like that "the purpose of a fence is to give sheep something to jump over". We grow out of these kind of things as we get older and learn basic facts about the world but on questions that are still unanswered such as why the universe exists at all, we will often defer to those kind of explanations which all fall under the generic umbrella of spirituality.

However humans are also innately capable of overriding this in search of rational answers, even if they may lead to us being worse off from some psychosocial standpoint.

[Anachron]

Broadly yes, humans naturally try and seek causational explanations and ascribe purpose to phenomena that we observe, and in the absence of rational explanations (such as those presented by scientific enquiry and result) we will tend to defer to whatever metaphysical conjecture-soup that either gives us a personal sense of comfort, and/or aligns with some basic pattern recognition traits that we (somewhat innately) have but that may be completely inappropriate or irrational in that scenario.

At a very basic level this is why children will often ascribe a purpose to mundane everyday things, something like that "the purpose of a fence is to give sheep something to jump over". We grow out of these kind of things as we get older and learn basic facts about the world but on questions that are still unanswered such as why the universe exists at all we will often defer to those kind of explanations which all fall under the generic umbrella of spirituality.

Did you ever "grow out of" believeing that the AZ and J&J vaccines are "traditional vaccines"?

[isingmodel]

You of course had to tie people who aren't spiritual to being involved in group think, needing safe spaces, or whatever. You used it as a way to attack liberals, when their perception is the exact same of the right being involved in group think and living in an echo chamber.... no difference.

I already said that spirituality can provide certain benefits to certain people; usually people facing difficult challenges they are unable to handle, so they turn to something greater than them or the situation for help. But it also carries substantial pitfalls which are being ignored. You talk about activities based around "Man" yet spirituality and religion are solely created by man, therefore based around man, and designed for man. You can say that it is for a "God," however if that God is an image made by man, then it does nothing but to help serve and gratify man in times of needing to feel good. Sure, praying to God might help you feel good but that is what the mechanism is created for. It doesn't make it real. Thinking about having sex with a woman and masturbating might make you feel good too... but you're still not f**king a woman. Does masturbating release tension and can it be healthy for you? Absolutely. Similar with religion and spirituality. It can make you feel good but that is what it is engineered to do... it still doesn't make it real. It is simply a tool designed by man for man, not by god or for god.

Once again, does it have benefits? Sure, it can make you feel good. But it can also take you down a rabbit hole where you actually fall into a system of religion and begin to follow a path created by other humans because you believe in the unexplainable. Your perception of reality and reasoning can be distorted. Those who believe the ten commandment actually came from God and weren't a human creation. You start to believe in the religious teachings and begin to put your being and identity into some other person's creative thinking. Once you fall into that trap you're subject to believe in anything.

But spirituality itself is not necessarily a bad thing... in moderation... and depending on one's definition of spirituality. So long as one understands what it actually is and it's purpose it can be a beneficial tool from time to time when it is needed to calm oneself. But if you're not spiritual, then that is fine too. I do not consider myself a spiritual person and I think a lot of it is because I am much more accepting of my fate in this world. I don't struggle that much with death, depression, anxiety, etc. If I did, I can see how spirituality might calm me and make me a healthier person. But I believe I see things for what they are and handle them accordingly. The idea that there may not be an afterlife scares the living crap out of some people, and those people need assurances that there is something greater than themselves so they will submit to religion or a cult or whatever they need to calm themselves of their fears. Some people are willing to accept that maybe this is it and move forward in a healthy way without needing anything more.

Good post, repped.

[Audioslave]

That was in response to someone who said that the benefits mainly come from then communal aspect and suggested lots of other groups can get the same benefits without the spiritual aspect involved. So I pointed out how lots of people in those groups suffer from higher rates of depression, anxiety, addiction, and many other issues. That would suggest there is more to it than just the community and belonging aspect of it. I never said all atheists or non-religious/spiritual people are in that group, and I just used leftists because they are most obvious example in today’s society.

Fair enough. Understood.

It does more than make you feel good. Again, it makes you mentally and physically healthier and happier(and feeling good and being happy are two different things). It also seems that humans are programmed to lean towards that, and that having a spiritual aspect to human experience is the natural state. You can say it’s all make believe or try to inject the existence of God into the conversation, but either way you look at it, these two things are true. 1.) humans are generally naturally inclined to believe in a Higher Power, and 2.) incorporating spiritual practices into life results in a healthier, happier person way more often than not.

Saying it makes you mentally and physically healthier is person dependent. I've already said that when you feel good, it can lower anxiety, which makes you mentally and physically healthier. Spirituality may provide this to some people, and it may not to others. Like you said, some people turn to drugs to treat anxiety, some can get it released from praying, some from exercise... and like I said, sometimes you can release the tension from masturbating. All of these things are different from being spiritual but can serve the same purpose.

It's interesting that you say humans are programmed to lean towards spirituality and that it is natural to us. I believe humans are programmed for survival and self gratification, which spirituality can help fulfill. The brain prioritizes instant self gratification over long-term goals. Think about that. It means that it doesn't matter what logic tells us, we choose self gratification anyway. Obviously we are sometime able to rationalize things and take steps to alter this but it is our nature nonetheless. Spirituality can help with the gratification. In addition, it can also help with the survival. We have long used religion to create communities that can fight and protect. Europeans and Native Americans were both spiritual but had different spiritual beliefs which caused conflicts. Those who didn't believe in anything didn't have a community behind them. Spirituality is something that brought groups together and increased the chance of one's survival.

So I wouldn't say that humans are inclined to be spiritual but rather spirituality is a device that is useful to fulfilling some of the natural needs or desires of humans.

And I am not calling it all make believe (although I guess to some extent it is because you can prove there is a God as much as I can prove there isn't) but I am trying to say that human can cling to things that aren't based in fact - and that's fine. People can escape through spirituality just like they can a movie, music, dream, etc. These things can take you to a place that isn't real but we continue to go there because we like it. But as an example, if you know the ten commandments came from God... then you're likely too far in. If you want to believe it and take that leap of faith.. that's different. But spirituality can take you to different places... and many on here would probably say that if it takes to radical Islam or Scientology then maybe it caused more harm than good. But either way, it was probably done to serve a human need/ desire.

I think we agree more than disagree on this last part. The main difference is that it appears you view it as mainly a crutch needed by weak people whereas I view it more as something that comes natural to most humans in a natural environment and can enhance anyone’s life, not just someone needing to get through a tough time. And to view the other side of the coin(of the weak crutch view of spirituality), it could be said that non-spiritual people cling to their views because it removes a level of accountability and also allows them to view themselves as stronger than believers. In actuality there is a lot more to it than that on both sides of the coin.

It's not just a "crutch" and maybe I was too harsh in that sense. But it's there as a tool to satisfy certain human wants or desires. And it can be a crutch as well sometimes to provide some gratification. My point is, there are other ways to satisfy those wants and desires, so not everyone has to be spiritual. To me, spirituality is only one tool in the tool box serving the purpose.

Like I said, I don't think it's natural for humans to be spiritual as much as it is that being spiritual satisfies some of the human desires.

[Maestro]

Spoiler alert


The answer is yes

Eh, more like curiosity about the unknown. 300 years ago people attributed a red algae bloom in a river or lightning as something supernatural now we know exactly what it is.