What's driving my % body fat rise?

[peadarriley]

Hi:

Hoping for some help figuring something out:

I've been lifting weights consistently for many years, with the usual interruptions from injury, life, etc. But, over the last 3 years, I've noticed that my %BF is slowly but consistently increasing (13.5% -> 17.1%), while my weight is staying the same, even though my workouts have stayed roughly similar. Some of the variables are:

1. age
2. vegan diet (incl. an increase in fruit consumption and cutting out dairy)
3. varying levels of aerobic exercise (usually 1 hour or more per day)
4. Different weight routines (push/pull, full body, # days).

The only variable I can't change is the "age" (currently 55), but what would you say is the prioritized list of variables to address? I'm not averse to testing a meat-based diet as an experiment (although I don't think that's a long-term good health option for me), and I'm not against dropping running/biking as an experiment. And I am supplementing with plant protein powder and/or beans/grains/tofu etc to get the recommended values (the same number of grams as my lean mass in pounds). Regarding the weight routine, I have changed from your lower-rep routine to a 10-15 rep style.

I can see that if I were to take a good workou/diet plan and follow it to the letter, I would see results. But, since I enjoy the vegan diet, doing lots of running, and higher-rep/DB workouts, I'd like to identify the main culprit for the %BF increase, if, indeed, it's just one thing that's driving it.

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

[air2fakie]

Crappy training most likely, and to a lesser extent, a rabbit-like diet.

Also, aside from you likely noticing yourself getting more pudgy, you have no clue if you’ve gone from precisely 13.5% to 17.1% bf.

[peadarriley]

Crappy training most likely, and to a lesser extent, a rabbit-like diet.

Also, aside from you likely noticing yourself getting more pudgy, you have no clue if you’ve gone from precisely 13.5% to 17.1% bf.

I think that's probably a good call on the crappy training. I do feel like I'm in a bit of a plateau. But I'm curious how bad the 'rabbit' diet is. The studies I've tracked down claim that if planned properly there's no difference between omnivore and 'rabbit'. on the other hand, they had limitations (short duration, type of participant, etc), so you could have a point there.

The BF change though, while it has error bars is reasonable. It's what I'm eyeballing in the mirror (although a modest effect), and I had a couple dexascans over the years while using this scale so I think it's a real trend.

At least you didn't mention 'age' as being the major factor. That's the one thing I can't control.

[air2fakie]

I think that's probably a good call on the crappy training. I do feel like I'm in a bit of a plateau. But I'm curious how bad the 'rabbit' diet is. The studies I've tracked down claim that if planned properly there's no difference between omnivore and 'rabbit'. on the other hand, they had limitations (short duration, type of participant, etc), so you could have a point there.

The BF change though, while it has error bars is reasonable. It's what I'm eyeballing in the mirror (although a modest effect), and I had a couple dexascans over the years while using this scale so I think it's a real trend.

At least you didn't mention 'age' as being the major factor. That's the one thing I can't control.

Being older doesn't help, but it's not on its own going to make drastic changes in your body comp if you're training & eating properly.

I wasn't doubting that you're seeing yourself get more pudgy at the same weight, just meant that such precise bf %'s no matter where they come from aren't accurate.

Like I said, it's likely your training programs (and potentially, inconsistency). Plus there's nothing wrong with a rabbit diet inherently, just keep in mind meat/fish/etc. doesn't only contain quality protein - so you should be looking to make sure you supplement with other vitamins/minerals/etc. that vegan diets tend to lack as well.

[DustinTheHuss]

Age will do that. I'm 51 and it's brutal to keep the body fat low in comparison to 10 years ago. Plus I get injured more often as you mentioned.

You do an hour or more of aerobic exercise a day? Wow.

[smokinal]

Age is a big factor. I'm 53 and really having to fight it now.
That said, I'm still a CICO guy. You can eat all the acorns and twigs you want but if you eat over your TDEE in acorns and twigs, you're going to gain weight. It doesn't matter what you eat, it matters how much.

There's a 74 yr old guy who competes in the organization I do, and he still comes in peeled. And I bet he even eats carbs...

[peadarriley]

Age will do that. I'm 51 and it's brutal to keep the body fat low in comparison to 10 years ago. Plus I get injured more often as you mentioned.

You do an hour or more of aerobic exercise a day? Wow.

Agreed, the injuries are an issue for me from time to time. I've just 'almost' gotten over 'frozen shoulder', which I didn't even know was a thing, until I got it.

[peadarriley]

Age is a big factor. I'm 53 and really having to fight it now.
That said, I'm still a CICO guy. You can eat all the acorns and twigs you want but if you eat over your TDEE in acorns and twigs, you're going to gain weight. It doesn't matter what you eat, it matters how much.

There's a 74 yr old guy who competes in the organization I do, and he still comes in peeled. And I bet he even eats carbs...

Hah, I had to look up "CICO" but that's my rule number one too. As for the acorns and twigs, I'd trade them in for good meat if there was a good enough reason. From what I see in the literature though; (1) although you have to be very careful, if you get enough protein it shouldn't matter where it comes from, and (2) it's healthier to eat plants. Honestly, if I could justify eating a good steak every day, I'd be doing it. The one thing that seems to be different is fish, like salmon. The same studies that show meat is bad for you, say that fish is good for you....and the more the better.

[air2fakie]

From what I see in the literature though; (1) although you have to be very careful, if you get enough protein it shouldn't matter where it comes from, and (2) it's healthier to eat plants.

Neither of those are correct. It's not "healthier" to eat only plants.

Meat doesn't equal only steak & protein isn't the only nutrient you need. It's better for muscle building to have access to a full variety of food sources, eaten in moderation or more selectively for one's preferences/needs. If you're eating only plants without strategic supplementation, you're likely not getting other nutrients that assist for muscle building, joint health, etc. especially for older folks.

[smokinal]

Hah, I had to look up "CICO" but that's my rule number one too. As for the acorns and twigs, I'd trade them in for good meat if there was a good enough reason. From what I see in the literature though; (1) although you have to be very careful, if you get enough protein it shouldn't matter where it comes from, and (2) it's healthier to eat plants. Honestly, if I could justify eating a good steak every day, I'd be doing it. The one thing that seems to be different is fish, like salmon. The same studies that show meat is bad for you, say that fish is good for you....and the more the better.

It's all good. I wasn't bashing a vegan diet; But I have many friends who think just because they're "eating healthy", they should be losing weight, so false. You can get fat eating acorns and twigs if you're eating over your tdee in acorns and twigs. In your OP you never mention calories so it leads me to believe you aren't tracking your cals and have no idea how many cals you're consuming in a day.
Just like IF; people think just because you're eating OMAD, and fast for 20 hrs, you can eat as much as you want; false.
No matter what diet you follow, everyone still has a tdee; and to lose weight, you have to be under that tdee every single day, every week of the year.

[peadarriley]

It's all good. I wasn't bashing a vegan diet; But I have many friends who think just because they're "eating healthy", they should be losing weight, so false. You can get fat eating acorns and twigs if you're eating over your tdee in acorns and twigs. In your OP you never mention calories so it leads me to believe you aren't tracking your cals and have no idea how many cals you're consuming in a day.
Just like IF; people think just because you're eating OMAD, and fast for 20 hrs, you can eat as much as you want; false.
No matter what diet you follow, everyone still has a tdee; and to lose weight, you have to be under that tdee every single day, every week of the year.

I completely agree. I'm pretty dialed in with the CICO approach. I logged daily food intake on Cronometer for many months at a time (relatively easy since I eat the same stuff every day) and I can modulate the rate of increase or decrease in weight accurately. I'm currently burning about 3100 calories a day (depending on the aerobic component).

I did some experiments with OMAD and 2-MAD (if that's a thing) and it didn't work out well. I like a big breakfast to set me up for the day and the research supports stacking calories in the morning, so that's good. Unfortunately, I also like grazing in the evening so I'm really doing a reverse IF! Surely, there must be a FAD that claims eating over an extended period is better

Tying in Air2fakie's comments about meat providing nutrients that you don't get from plants. I can believe that might be true, but more importantly, is it MORE important for building muscle? I wouldn't be averse to trying it as a way to test it out.

I did switch to a 5-day split on Monday using more barbell exercises and heavier weights (8-10 range). Surprisingly, I went back to a 2018 log book, when I'd been doing a similar routine, and my weights/reps are just as good as they were then. So, I've apparently not lost strength in the last 5 years.

On the "acorns and twigs", which I've never had, it might be better to say "beans and nuts"

Thanks for the comments!

[peadarriley]

Neither of those are correct. It's not "healthier" to eat only plants.

Meat doesn't equal only steak & protein isn't the only nutrient you need. It's better for muscle building to have access to a full variety of food sources, eaten in moderation or more selectively for one's preferences/needs. If you're eating only plants without strategic supplementation, you're likely not getting other nutrients that assist in muscle building, joint health, etc., especially for older folks.

This is what I'm trying to understand. Everyone can have an opinion, and you might be right. But what's the evidence? You need a metric, studies, theories, etc. So, in terms of the first point about protein, the scientific studies (which are limited) suggest that trainees get the same muscle growth if fed plant or animal protein. However, if a better study showed that this wasn't true, I'd like to know. On the second point about plants being healthier, if we define death as being a good metric for (un)health, then I think this is a really good study:

(seems like I can't post a link until I've posted 50 times, so search for "Food groups and risk of all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective studies" in Google Scholar for the article.

If you look at Figure 2 (probably need to download the PDF and zoom in), you could infer the following:

1. More whole grains is always better (there's no U shape to the curve)
2. Refined grains should be kept to less than 50 g (or better, zero, if you're eating whole).
3. 500 g of veggies is sufficient. More than that doesn't seem to be better.
4. Fruits should be limited to 250 g. That's only 2.5 pieces (gulp).
5. Nuts should be limited to <20 g (or 0.7 ounces....a small handful).
6. You cannot eat too many legumes! More is better.
7. Only a tiny benefit to eating 1-2 eggs per week. Should skip rather than overshoot.
8. Tiny benefit to dairy, say, 1 cup of cottage cheese. Should skip rather than overshoot.
9. Fish is healthy, at least up to 8 oz each day (wow).
10. Red and processed meat, and sugar: bad in any amount.

So, there are lots of ways to criticise these inferences, and I'm happy to do that. But, you have to start somewhere. (as a side note, this is in line with the Mediterranean diet).

[air2fakie]

This is what I'm trying to understand. Everyone can have an opinion, and you might be right. But what's the evidence? You need a metric, studies, theories, etc. So, in terms of the first point about protein, the scientific studies (which are limited) suggest that trainees get the same muscle growth if fed plant or animal protein. However, if a better study showed that this wasn't true, I'd like to know. On the second point about plants being healthier, if we define death as being a good metric for (un)health, then I think this is a really good study:

(seems like I can't post a link until I've posted 50 times, so search for "Food groups and risk of all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective studies" in Google Scholar for the article.

If you look at Figure 2 (probably need to download the PDF and zoom in), you could infer the following:

1. More whole grains is always better (there's no U shape to the curve)
2. Refined grains should be kept to less than 50 g (or better, zero, if you're eating whole).
3. 500 g of veggies is sufficient. More than that doesn't seem to be better.
4. Fruits should be limited to 250 g. That's only 2.5 pieces (gulp).
5. Nuts should be limited to <20 g (or 0.7 ounces....a small handful).
6. You cannot eat too many legumes! More is better.
7. Only a tiny benefit to eating 1-2 eggs per week. Should skip rather than overshoot.
8. Tiny benefit to dairy, say, 1 cup of cottage cheese. Should skip rather than overshoot.
9. Fish is healthy, at least up to 8 oz each day (wow).
10. Red and processed meat, and sugar: bad in any amount.

So, there are lots of ways to criticise these inferences, and I'm happy to do that. But, you have to start somewhere. (as a side note, this is in line with the Mediterranean diet).

People who eat meat can also eat plants. You’re stating what “all” the studies supposedly say with no references or context. Limiting your food sources so you don’t have any intake of quality sources of protein, fish oil, collagen, zinc, vitamins, etc. - without specifically trying to supplement those - isn’t “healthier” and definitely not better for building muscle. And the Mediterranean diet isn’t a plant-based diet.

Look around any gym and you can probably pick out the vegans based on how their bodies look and what they’re doing. I’m not knocking anyone’s ethical beliefs, just stating a fact.

People lift weights for a variety of reasons, but yes, one is to have a strong, healthy and visibly appealing body while alive. Your OP was about your body comp and now you’re saying it’s about living longer, and that eating only plants makes you do that. You can live just as long of a life eating a full variety of food. There are so many variables in the life span of any individual, and the quality of the long life and the body you live it in is more important to some than simply living X number of years.

People who see things in black & white, in your case only plants vs only meat, aren’t going to understand a single study you read.