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  1. #1
    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Help building a personalised routine/Planning a giga-cut

    I'm 5"8 135kg around 25-30% bodyfat BMI of 47kg

    I want to drop to around 84kg 10-15% bodyfat and be able to do marathons aswell as just generally being healthy/aesthetic

    I work nightshift and according to my fitbit (which probably isn't accurate) I am burning around 4-5k calories a day when i'm at work and around 500-1000 in the gym.

    I am one of these "sleepless elite" people who operate on 5 hours sleep with full function

    My problem at the moment is that I go to the gym after work at 6.30am and my rest day changes each week

    This means if I work the weekend the gym isn't open when I finish work so I cant have a normal routine.

    What I need help with is building a routine that has an upper/lower 2x a week routine and 1x full body routine for the weeks when my rest days are during the week and a 4x upper/lower OR chest & back / shoulders & arms / Legs 2x a week routine whilst fitting in 3x cardio sessions on the days I'm able to.

    I've been training for a couple years now so I know how to do most movements and like quite intense routines.

    I have made some routines in the past but feel like I need a smarter plan overall for my weekly training, I like circuit style training and don't mind HIIT style either but generally just need help making something consistent.

    Thanks bros
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    If you're 5-8 & close to 300 lbs, you should start with an honest look at where you're currently at in terms of bf%, daily calorie burn, being "sleepless elite", training needs, etc.

    Some of the stuff in your post just seems off, including that the only problem is your work schedule & that nutrition/diet isn't mentioned at all. It'll be a lot easier for others to help you build an effective, personalized routine if you're working from a solid understanding of where you're at & that your needs aren't much different than anyone else who wants to lose weight & get in better shape.
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  3. #3
    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    If you're 5-8 & close to 300 lbs, you should start with an honest look at where you're currently at in terms of bf%, daily calorie burn, being "sleepless elite", training needs, etc.

    Some of the stuff in your post just seems off, including that the only problem is your work schedule & that nutrition/diet isn't mentioned at all. It'll be a lot easier for others to help you build an effective, personalized routine if you're working from a solid understanding of where you're at & that your needs aren't much different than anyone else who wants to lose weight & get in better shape.
    My diet is usually 180g~ protein and too many carbs/fat (40/30/30 split for most part) but I want to change to a 50/20/30 split if possible

    I eat alot of fruit and veg and caloric dense food like nuts

    supplement with protein shakes and most "dinner time" meals are rice/chicken/steak with some greens

    currently trying to restrict calories to around 1800 or a deficit of 1000-2000 in accordance with my fitbit stats (like i said i cant think they are that accurate)

    But i need a consistent plan and to know what numbers im crunching out weekly before I can make a refined meal plan for each day. just hitting macros isn't enough i want properly timed micros and planned high carb meals for high calorie burning days/workouts

    this is the main reason I didn't include diet as I need to get the routine down first (consistency.)
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  4. #4
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Unless you have a world class amount of muscle, I can't imagine you being under 40% body fat at that weight. You don't need a refined meal plan. You need wholesale changes to your diet.
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    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    As mentioned, it's a pure numbers game, you probably don't even need to worry about macros, muscle loss is not an issue at that weight. Just a consistent sustained large calorie deficit for a long long time.

    For future reference, you don't need macro ratios - you just need to hit certain minimums for protein and dietary fat, once you've done that, the actual proportions don't matter.
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    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Most people massively underestimate their body fat. What ever you think you are add 10-15 percent. For reference I was 20 % at 200 lbs. I’d jump on all pros. Focus on getting the fat off (large calorie deficit) and you’ll recomp at the same time.
    Last edited by TAWS6; 09-28-2022 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Edit all pros routine
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  7. #7
    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Unless you have a world class amount of muscle, I can't imagine you being under 40% body fat at that weight. You don't need a refined meal plan. You need wholesale changes to your diet.
    Did some quick measurements

    Wrist 7inches~
    Forearm 12-13inches~
    Bicep 16-17inches~
    Calves 21inches~
    Thighs 32inches~
    Waistline 48 inches-
    Chest 48inches-
    and my ass is phat

    Most of my weight is in my muffin top physique, rest of the body has a higher muscle mass:fat mass ratio

    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Most people massively underestimate their body fat. What ever you think you are add 10-15 percent. For reference I was 20 % at 200 lbs. I’d jump on all pros. Focus on getting the fat off (large calorie deficit) and you’ll recomp at the same time.
    I was doing allpro a couple years ago, it's good but it's not intense enough, looking for something thats hitting 15-18sets each group per week.
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  8. #8
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    The “sleepless elite” isn’t a thing. That is just you being adapted to getting a poor amount of sleep.

    At that amount of bf, I’d be willing to bet my salary that you have some degree of sleep apnea as well.

    A lot goes on when you go to sleep and it makes no sense to sacrifice any of it if it can be avoided.

    And as mentioned you need wholesale diet changes. And you need to stick with them.
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  9. #9
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    Did some quick measurements

    Wrist 7inches~
    Forearm 12-13inches~
    Bicep 16-17inches~
    Calves 21inches~
    Thighs 32inches~
    Waistline 48 inches-
    Chest 48inches-
    and my ass is phat

    Most of my weight is in my muffin top physique, rest of the body has a higher muscle mass:fat mass ratio



    I was doing allpro a couple years ago, it's good but it's not intense enough, looking for something thats hitting 15-18sets each group per week.
    That sounds in line with what I think. You're carrying a lot of fat. A lot.
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  10. #10
    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    That sounds in line with what I think. You're carrying a lot of fat. A lot.
    I am but I didn't come here to discuss that I need to eat better, I know that i need to eat less but it doesnt matter if I dont have a proper training plan that I can stick to and still hits my goals each week

    imgur .com/a/0Dragl6 if you want a more visual look at my physique but fair warning it's not pretty

    When it comes to diet I lost the most weight when doing fasted workouts 5x a week and a 1500kcal OMAD/IF 20:4 diet so I got used to high intensity pretty quickly doing allpro
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    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    I am but I didn't come here to discuss that I need to eat better, I know that i need to eat less but it doesnt matter if I dont have a proper training plan that I can stick to and still hits my goals each week
    Diet is far and away the most important thing to address. Training is secondary.
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    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Diet is far and away the most important thing to address. Training is secondary.
    how many times do i need to say it

    I'm not looking at diet right now

    1800kcal a day, 50% protein around 700-900 calories combined with fresh fruits and veg/paleo diet if you wanna call it that with interchangeable carb amounts for the days that are more intense. I need the workout plan FIRST so i can calculate the meals each day. doing upper was burning about half the calories doing lower was.

    I cant take a generalised approach and If I, what I want to do, start adding in HIIT/long distance running I need to know how much calories are being burned so that I am fuelling properly for each workout and not having too many carbs for something that I don't need carbs at all for. I can't do an 8 mile run fasted if I did a legs workout the night before and even less so if i'm not eating right to recover properly and train as hard as I want.

    I will focus on diet once I know the numbers, trust that this is not something that I am ignoring. I need a consistent routine so that when I look at my schedule for the week I can meal prep a few days in advance and not have to worry about macros being all over the place with 20minutes to figure out how I'm going to hit them.
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  13. #13
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    how many times do i need to say it

    I'm not looking at diet right now

    1800kcal a day, 50% protein around 700-900 calories combined with fresh fruits and veg/paleo diet if you wanna call it that with interchangeable carb amounts for the days that are more intense. I need the workout plan FIRST so i can calculate the meals each day. doing upper was burning about half the calories doing lower was.

    I cant take a generalised approach and If I, what I want to do, start adding in HIIT/long distance running I need to know how much calories are being burned so that I am fuelling properly for each workout and not having too many carbs for something that I don't need carbs at all for. I can't do an 8 mile run fasted if I did a legs workout the night before and even less so if i'm not eating right to recover properly and train as hard as I want.

    I will focus on diet once I know the numbers, trust that this is not something that I am ignoring. I need a consistent routine so that when I look at my schedule for the week I can meal prep a few days in advance and not have to worry about macros being all over the place with 20minutes to figure out how I'm going to hit them.
    I think people are saying your workout & diet approach, along with the relationship between them, is both incorrect & overly complicated. It's a little ironic how often people who are way beyond out of shape refuse to listen when people try to explain that they're misunderstanding their own body composition, as well as what it takes to lose weight & get in shape. No one here is misunderstanding what you're saying. Good luck with that 8 mile run though.
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    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Red face

    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I think people are saying your workout & diet approach, along with the relationship between them, is both incorrect & overly complicated. It's a little ironic how often people who are way beyond out of shape refuse to listen when people try to explain that they're misunderstanding their own body composition, as well as what it takes to lose weight & get in shape. No one here is misunderstanding what you're saying. Good luck with that 8 mile run though.
    It comes across as a little ignorant and condescending when I already acknowledge diet and the next guy comes along n is like yea just diet bro

    I've been following generic advice for the last 3 years being on a 500 deficit 2-2.4k diet and I've only gained weight doing that.

    It comes across as complicated for you but for me I can't get to the gym on weekends cos it's closed and going before work has me either rushing to get home minutes before I go to work or skipping meals and working till 2am before my first meal, waking up at 5pm means that all transport thereafter is 1 bus an hour and if I have a pre workout meal that also takes time (aswell as generally just waking up) making it hell of a lot harder to train at that time hence why I am training in the morning after work. I finish work at 6 and don't get home till 9am usually and idk if you've ever tried to get to sleep quick after a workout doesn't happen quickly.

    Also gotta take into account external factors like circadian rhythm and insulin response past certain times of day being different meaning I can put on weight more easily if I don't eat properly/at the right times

    And thank you I've come close to hitting 8 before was hitting 10 on my bike 3x a week previously but runnings so much harder than cycling
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    It comes across as a little ignorant and condescending when I already acknowledge diet and the next guy comes along n is like yea just diet bro

    I've been following generic advice for the last 3 years being on a 500 deficit 2-2.4k diet and I've only gained weight doing that.

    It comes across as complicated for you but for me I can't get to the gym on weekends cos it's closed and going before work has me either rushing to get home minutes before I go to work or skipping meals and working till 2am before my first meal, waking up at 5pm means that all transport thereafter is 1 bus an hour and if I have a pre workout meal that also takes time (aswell as generally just waking up) making it hell of a lot harder to train at that time hence why I am training in the morning after work. I finish work at 6 and don't get home till 9am usually and idk if you've ever tried to get to sleep quick after a workout doesn't happen quickly.

    Also gotta take into account external factors like circadian rhythm and insulin response past certain times of day being different meaning I can put on weight more easily if I don't eat properly/at the right times

    And thank you I've come close to hitting 8 before was hitting 10 on my bike 3x a week previously but runnings so much harder than cycling
    Like I said you're overcomplicated things & just plain wrong. Skip all the insulin, circadian rhythm, adjusting intake on days based on calorie burn, different workouts for different weeks, your schedule is so much harder than everyone else's, etc. That's just setting you up for whatever inconsistency & lack of discipline that got you to where you are.

    Set your calorie target where you think you'll be at a deficit, then track your weight & lower it if necessary so you have consistent weight loss over time. Get on any novice program, do your cardio on off days, and do it on a rolling basis based on which days you can work out.

    If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be 300 lbs, speaking of ignorance. I'm not even trying to shame you, just stating a fact.
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    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    how many times do i need to say it

    I'm not looking at diet right now
    How many times do I need to say it: a proper diet is 99% of what you need. Fuel for workouts? You're carrying 150lbs of it.
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    You don't need an intense volume program when you're:
    A. losing weight
    B. morbidly obese
    C. beginner / novice strength levels

    You need to focus on diet, losing at least 100 lbs, weigh your food on a food scale, prepare to diet harder and consistently for a long time.

    You don't need macro ratios, at all. Your body needs nutritional mininums. Read the nutrition stickys, starting with this one:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173439001

    This isn't the advice you want, this is the advice you need.

    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    I've been following generic advice for the last 3 years being on a 500 deficit 2-2.4k diet and I've only gained weight doing that.
    Then you weren't eating at a deficit.

    Eat your nutritional minimums (protein / fat / fiber)
    Track every calorie that enters your mouth
    Eat less
    Do this for years in your case

    do what you have to do for you, take pride in putting in the work

    No excuses : circadian rhythms / nutrient timing / dietary restrictions / time management.

    Good luck with your goals.
    Last edited by Camarija; 09-28-2022 at 03:20 PM.
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  18. #18
    Registered User Spriteacus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Camarija View Post
    snip

    Good luck with your goals.
    Thanks this is more helpful.

    As for the deficit that's why I'm asking for a proper routine so I can calculate the actual deficit and not going on just vibes.

    And what would you consider novice strength? I'm squatting into the 150kgs, barbell hip thrust over 300kg, leg press pb was around 500 kg x8, deadlift over 100kg without straps. When am I no longer a beginner?

    And lastly no excuses but they are obstacles in the way.
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    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Are you counting calories? If you’re not losing weight, you’re not in a deficit. Nothing to do with programming.

    You’re not a beginner but I honestly wouldn’t lift more than 2-3 days per week. You probably need much more cardio to increase or create the deficit.
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Are you counting calories? If you’re not losing weight, you’re not in a deficit. Nothing to do with programming.
    Dude how many times does he have to tell you, he gained weight last time he was in a deficit. This time he needs his workout specifics so he can calculate it even better.

    You're probably one of those bro-science disciples who calculates a deficit by counting/adjusting calories then making sure your weight trends down over time.
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    Dude, it doesn't matter what time of day you eat as far as losing weight. It's HOW MANY CALORIES you eat. Period. You are worrying about stuff that complicates a very, very simple fact. Eat fewer calories than you burn on a CONSISTENT AND ONGOING BASIS - not figured on a time of day.

    Just for grins, what time of day should I eat eat an entire cheesecake to lose weight?
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    Just for grins, what time of day should I eat eat an entire cheesecake to lose weight?
    Everyone knows cheesecake + coffee is the breakfast of champions.
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    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    Thanks this is more helpful.

    As for the deficit that's why I'm asking for a proper routine so I can calculate the actual deficit and not going on just vibes.

    And what would you consider novice strength? I'm squatting into the 150kgs, barbell hip thrust over 300kg, leg press pb was around 500 kg x8, deadlift over 100kg without straps. When am I no longer a beginner?

    And lastly no excuses but they are obstacles in the way.
    If it helps, I would say that reducing volume while keeping intensity close to what you train with normally is the preferable way to go. Recovery ability will be hampered under a caloric deficit but keeping your strength in good trim will prevent muscular atrophy, and you should just bounce right back once you're back to maintenance levels.

    I am an intermediate lifter, and I seemed to be able to maintain my strength level almost completely while losing weight from about 255 to 230, last year. That's not an extreme weight loss, but I was consistently eating at a deficit and made it to a healthy body composition by the end of it. (Unfortunately, I've allowed myself to bounce back, but that's separate matter.)

    I think everyone else is misunderstanding your question, regarding the exercise bearing on calculating your actual deficit. To me, it sounds like you want to account for how much caloric burn your workouts are adding to the equation. The best thing to do is to entirely avoid factoring it in. Anaerobic exercise from a good session is probably more than a drop in the bucket, but it doesn't burn that many calories, and it wouldn't be possible to estimate on a reliable and consistent basis. Just guesstimate a number of calories that you think you would lose weight on even if you did no exercise, and eat that much consistently, and if you lose weight consistently, then you know that that target is valid. Keep eating at that amount in spite of the exercise to lose weight, and train to retain. 3,000 is probably a good number to start with. It may be a bit high but you'd probably lose on it. Consistency is the key here so I think starting with something mild is the best way to go long run.

    Again, higher intensity and low volume is the best approach in my experience as a relatively strong lifter who lost weight successfully. Initially I tried to do my powerlifting program I normally do but ended up stalling out early on, but by cutting the volume down I was still able to maintain strength pretty much across the board.

    Good luck!
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    Damn savages in here tonight ha


    Also lol at Eli being “intermediate”. Sorry to break it to you but you’re advanced.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post

    I think everyone else is misunderstanding your question, regarding the exercise bearing on calculating your actual deficit. To me, it sounds like you want to account for how much caloric burn your workouts are adding to the equation. The best thing to do is to entirely avoid factoring it in. Anaerobic exercise from a good session is probably more than a drop in the bucket, but it doesn't burn that many calories, and it wouldn't be possible to estimate on a reliable and consistent basis. Just guesstimate a number of calories that you think you would lose weight on even if you did no exercise, and eat that much consistently, and if you lose weight consistently, then you know that that target is valid. Keep eating at that amount in spite of the exercise to lose weight, and train to retain. 3,000 is probably a good number to start with. It may be a bit high but you'd probably lose on it. Consistency is the key here so I think starting with something mild is the best way to go long run.

    Good luck!
    Yes exactly this, thank you.

    But onto the actual tailoring of the program, do you think a 5x5 all compound lifts is better than an upper lower split? Or should I just go full body till failure on each group?
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  26. #26
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Damn savages in here tonight ha


    Also lol at Eli being “intermediate”. Sorry to break it to you but you’re advanced.
    Thanks for the kind word. Still making strength gains but have a long ways to go.

    And at my bodyweight, StrengthLevel has me at intermediate for most lifts. If I was as strong as I am now but weighed 220 or so, that might be a different story.

    Originally Posted by Spriteacus View Post
    Yes exactly this, thank you.

    But onto the actual tailoring of the program, do you think a 5x5 all compound lifts is better than an upper lower split? Or should I just go full body till failure on each group?
    Since muscle maintenance requires far less stimulus than progression does, I think it makes the most sense to prioritize weight loss and put the premium on finding and adhering to that deficit, while training in some form of balanced way, and not getting absorbed into the details of programming. I think the biggest box to check here is simply to ensure that you are working every major movement pattern in some form on a regular basis. Upper/lower splits are efficient for maintaining a low volume approach, but as long as you're doing that at relatively high intensity and at a low enough threshold of volume that recovery is sustainable as you are losing weight, you're unlikely to lose any appreciable amount of muscle. I wouldn't get too caught up in trying to find an optimal set/rep scheme since those sorts of questions are more relevant when aiming for progression, which outside of novice gains (which it sounds like you're past) won't occur during weight loss anyway.
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    Quick update: seems like i've lost about 4kg~ this month

    I think I've got a routine planned now, feel free to give some feedback if you think I should change anything or add anything

    on my weeks with 3 days at the gym my routine will be:-

    Day 1

    Angled Leg Press
    Leg Extensions
    Leg Curls (hamstrings)
    Bench Press
    Pec Fly
    Bicep Curl/Skullcrusher superset

    All sets 4 x 8-10 except last 2 which will probably be 12-15 rep range

    Day 2

    Deadlifts
    Seated Cable Row
    T-bar prone Row
    Overhead Press
    Piston Press/See-saw Press whatever you wanna call it
    Lateral Raises
    Lat Pulldowns

    All sets 4 x 8-10

    Day 3

    Squats
    Overhead Press
    Bench Press
    Deadlifts
    Calf raises
    50-100 Pushups & 20-30minute HIIT session on treadmill or Intermitten on Rowing machine with the pushups inbetween.

    All sets 5x5-8

    For the weeks with 4 days :-

    Day 1 & 3

    Squats
    Front-foot Raised Squats
    Bulgarian Squats
    Bench press
    Pec Fly
    Incline Bench

    All sets 3 x 8-10

    Day 2 & 4

    Deadlifts
    Romanian DL
    Lat Pulldown
    Overhead Press/Seated OHP
    Reverse Fly
    Wide Grip Row

    All sets 3 x 8-10

    And on the days between/when I can

    Long distance running/Marathon training (I found a marathon training plan that has the same fundamentals as progressive overload)

    Key Run Workout #1

    10 minute warm-up
    6 x (1 minute fast then 3 min. easy)
    10 minute cool-down

    Key Run Workout #2

    2 miles easy,
    2 miles @ Tempo pace
    2 miles easy

    Key Run Workout #3

    Distance: 8 miles
    Pace: PMP + 30s

    Build up the miles overtime until you can hit the 26 miles.

    Thoughts?
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    In which multiverse are we 300 lbs, likely over 45% bf and training for marathons?
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    In which multiverse are we 300 lbs, likely over 45% bf and training for marathons?
    Yes.
    Age: 30

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  30. #30
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    In which multiverse are we 300 lbs, likely over 45% bf and training for marathons?
    my multiverse mf STAY HARD
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