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  1. #31
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TearsOfIce View Post
    Actually let me know what you think:
    https://ibb.co/9wrt7x7
    Exact bf% doesn’t matter. You look better now than if you were stage lean IMO.

    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    You're fitter than most guys on here.
    With bigger traps.
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  2. #32
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TearsOfIce View Post
    Well, I believe stage lean is more like 11-12%. However I’m fairly lean and muscular. Been training consistently for 8 years. Based on the chart below I would put myself around the 16% mark. I’ve also tested it in 2020 and was around 16/17% at a similar body weight.

    https://www.google.it/amp/s/www.cros...mposition/amp/

    Actually let me know what you think:
    https://ibb.co/9wrt7x7
    You look great... but realistically on a woman that's more like 16-19% in my opinion, which is really lean.

    I believe the difference would be like 6-10% points adjusting from man to woman. To me you look similarly lean to a male at about 11-12% just from that one angle.

    TBH the % doesn't really matter... you're still very impressive. Distribution also matters tho... it's hard to say without observing area each sex tends to store more fat in.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 09-30-2022 at 10:42 AM.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    You look great... but realistically on a woman that's more like 16-19% in my opinion, which is really lean.

    I believe the difference would be like 6-10% points adjusting from man to woman. To me you look similarly lean to a male at about 11-12% just from that one angle.

    TBH the % doesn't really matter... you're still very impressive. Distribution also matters tho... it's hard to say without observing area each sex tends to store more fat in.
    I agree with Adam here on the BF %. Regardless, EXTREMELY impressive physique. You're probly legitimately leaner and more muscular than the vast majority of male miscers. Srs.

    Also, Idk why, but I always thought you were a dude LMAO
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  4. #34
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I agree with Adam here on the BF %. Regardless, EXTREMELY impressive physique. You're probly legitimately leaner and more muscular than the vast majority of male miscers. Srs.

    Also, Idk why, but I always thought you were a dude LMAO
    Yeah and her structure alone is a massive advantage… you don’t often see shoulder/trap area like that in women… takes a lot of work!

    Also agreed: I always just default to thinking posters are dudes unless the name or avi make it obvious.
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  5. #35
    Registered User TearsOfIce's Avatar
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    Thank you so much to all of you!

    At the end of the day bf% doesn’t mean a thing as long as you like what you see in the mirror. Hence why I haven’t tested it in a long while.

    Thank you for the appreciation on my shoulders/traps. It’s the first thing that people notice when they see me and the reason why people often ask me if I’m a swimmer (lol…that pisses me off). I wish I had better legs genetics but I’m working on them….

    Oh, and don’t worry about thinking I was a dude lol.
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  6. #36
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TearsOfIce View Post
    Thank you so much to all of you!

    At the end of the day bf% doesn’t mean a thing as long as you like what you see in the mirror. Hence why I haven’t tested it in a long while.

    Thank you for the appreciation on my shoulders/traps. It’s the first thing that people notice when they see me and the reason why people often ask me if I’m a swimmer (lol…that pisses me off). I wish I had better legs genetics but I’m working on them….

    Oh, and don’t worry about thinking I was a dude lol.
    I dunno the legs look pretty damn solid to me…
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  7. #37
    Registered User leanbulk1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Did you consider the TEF of fat and carbs? Or that the energy spent digesting food doesn't come from the food itself? Are you going to keep bro-sciencing the hell out of simple concepts?
    Yes TEF from fats and carbs are outlined in Lean Gains, Martin Berkhams book. But the impact is negligible compared to protein so I'm not so much concerned. I appreciate you constantly riding my ass and trying to dunk on me here though it's amusing.

    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Well here’s the truth: calories don’t actually exist. They are a man made concept to TRY to comprehend how our bodies take the POTENTIAL energy of food and use them for different processes etc. i can make up any random name and number of things you need and if you follow it correctly it provides a baseline to start and adjust. For example if i told you that you needed 12 million gigawazoos to gain weight and then told you that a certain amount of food contained about a potential of 12 million gigawazoos. If you ate 12 million gigawazoos and did not gain muscle then you would need to add some more gigawazoos. If you were gaining too fast you would have to eat less gigawazoos. Its all just relativity, consistency and adjustment as needed.
    Thanks I understand. It still helps to measure, so we can record and track if progress occurs.

    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    You're fitter than most guys on here.
    No idea what others are like here but I agree.

    Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm taking them all on board here and they all help me in comparing and finding out what I can aim for.
    Last edited by leanbulk1; 10-04-2022 at 03:18 AM.
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  8. #38
    Registered User leanbulk1's Avatar
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    04/10/22

    Martin Berkham revealed in a FAQ I found, 2g of protein per bodyweight is all one really needs. I'm about 85kg now so I think 170g protein's fine for me. IDC about satiety. I was used to eating little before all this gym stuff anyway a couple months back. But it'd sabotage myself with excessive high calorie low nutrional foods.

    Now that I'm counting calories and macronutrients it's a thing the past. I'm happy with what I've learned so far. I've already lost some fat and gained some muscle, so that's cool.

    170g fits nicely compared to the 140g, 240g then 200g I was doing. Will help my wallet too. It's not too far off from the sticky calculator here either. Maybe an 45g extra or something iirc.

    As we all know, science is never settled. It's always on going, changing, with new studies and or discoveries with new methods of testing. Again preaching to the choir; it's best to take a holistic approach, rather than a purely one sided theoretical, clinical, vacuum trial or gym bro practical approach. So this number is within the realm of what other similar body types and activity levels here are getting too.

    Of course now that I'm consuming less protein I'll be burning less calories. So I wonder, why not just eat less calories? Right now I'm still forcing myself to just eat at a 500 calorie deficiency. Can I simply consume a greater deficiency of 500 cals without compromising MPS (muscle protein synthesis), muscle maintenance, carb, fat, minerals vitamins rdi and energy levels? This will be the next thing I'll research I suppose. In the time being I'll stick with a 500 calorie deficiency.

    It's also neat to see rdi approximations of minerals and vitamins on the Cronometer app. Just switched last night from fat secret. I'll have further fun researching these topics and their sources.

    Also I'm wondering if I should compensate the ingested protein lost due to TEF and bio availability of foods to fully reach 170g for pure MPS. Something else for me look into.

    Currently I'm reviewing my workout program. I think I'm starting a new program today. Will ask for advice / review soon.

    Thanks for your responses everyone.
    Last edited by leanbulk1; 10-04-2022 at 08:02 PM.
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  9. #39
    Edgerunner faithbrah's Avatar
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    is this your hobby or your job? you're free to put in 1000% extra effort for maybe 0.1% more results, but you should honestly ask yourself if this is really something you want to focus on instead of sticking to the basics. even pros don't go into this level of detail, think about that
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  10. #40
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by faithbrah View Post
    is this your hobby or your job? you're free to put in 1000% extra effort for maybe 0.1% more results, but you should honestly ask yourself if this is really something you want to focus on instead of sticking to the basics. even pros don't go into this level of detail, think about that
    I think some people just don't like lifting. So the research & coming up with their own theories is the hobby, and they never really try to make actual gains. Kinda like how some people are always talking about trying fad diets but never really lose weight.
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  11. #41
    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I think some people just don't like lifting. So the research & coming up with their own theories is the hobby, and they never really try to make actual gains. Kinda like how some people are always talking about trying fad diets but never really lose weight.
    And then some people who simply love lifting end up jacked and strong without knowing any kind of programming principles because they just get in, lift hard, eat, and rest.
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  12. #42
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    And then some people who simply love lifting end up jacked and strong without knowing any kind of programming principles because they just get in, lift hard, eat, and rest.
    I technically made all the best gains of my life doing just that. This would've been the first 5 years of my lifting career, so not just newbie gains. I know plenty other dudes who did the same. In fact, I'd say all the people I know who have the best physiques don't really track.

    I also remember MrPb (RIP ) posting a study where the weightlifters who naturally ate "ad libitum" actually gained the "ideal" amount of weight per week for lean bulking:https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...9122713&page=1.
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  13. #43
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    And then some people who simply love lifting end up jacked and strong without knowing any kind of programming principles because they just get in, lift hard, eat, and rest.
    Plus oddly with all of OP's research it's clear from the original post & subject of the thread that he doesn't even know what "natty" means.
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  14. #44
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I technically made all the best gains of my life doing just that. This would've been the first 5 years of my lifting career, so not just newbie gains. I know plenty other dudes who did the same. In fact, I'd say all the people I know who have the best physiques don't really track.

    I also remember MrPb (RIP ) posting a study where the weightlifters who naturally ate "ad libitum" actually gained the "ideal" amount of weight per week for lean bulking:https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...9122713&page=1.
    Yeah it's interesting how it can work out that way... I have definitely noticed the same in many people. At times, myself included. I think much of it comes down to being more intuitive with recovery than anything else... knowing when to go light or take a break instead of being forced to grind yourself into the ground can do wonders.
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    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    I eat to an RPE 7 most days. On the odd day, I'll go RPE 10 with pizza.
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  16. #46
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    I eat to an RPE 7 most days. On the odd day, I'll go RPE 10 with pizza.
    Same. The digestive DOMS after hitting an RPE 10 in pizza are fuking brutal
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  17. #47
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yeah it's interesting how it can work out that way... I have definitely noticed the same in many people. At times, myself included. I think much of it comes down to being more intuitive with recovery than anything else... knowing when to go light or take a break instead of being forced to grind yourself into the ground can do wonders.
    Definitely. It's also definitely easier said than done sometimes. My problem is that I'm always inclined to push it too far. My "all reps to failure bro" mindset has set me back many a training cycle, and I still take it too far sometimes.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Definitely. It's also definitely easier said than done sometimes. My problem is that I'm always inclined to push it too far. My "all reps to failure bro" mindset has set me back many a training cycle, and I still take it too far sometimes.
    Tell me about it man... leaving 3 reps in the tank feels like im not even trying, when in fact it's probably what I need to be doing.
    "When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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  19. #49
    Registered User Paul Kreul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leanbulk1 View Post
    Can bodybuilding forums please help me with a little personal experiment with these questions? I'd like to compare numbers between posters here against my own.


    1. Height

    Are you over 185cm (6ft 1inch)?
    Or are you under 167cm (5ft 5inches)?

    2. Body fat

    Are you under 10% bf?
    Are you between 20 - 24% bf?
    Are you between 25 - 29% bf?
    Or are you over 30% bf?

    3. Muscle

    Are you muscular?
    Or are you very muscular?

    [Muscular requires a fat-free mass index (FFMI) of >22.
    For Very Muscular, the FFMI is > 24.67]

    4. Activity

    Sedentary
    Lightly active
    Active
    Very active

    5. What is your weight?

    6. Nutrition

    How many calories do you eat?
    How much protein do you eat?
    How much carbs do you eat?
    How much fat do you eat?

    7. Do you have carbs, fat targets or do you just target protein?

    8. Do you consume protein powder and if so how much?

    9. What are your three favourite protein sources?

    10. What is your one artist/ album to listen to in the gym?

    Thank you for helping me
    1. 6 ft 1
    2. No idea, pretty lean
    3.Muscular
    4.Active
    5.185
    6.Don't track any of that
    7.Eat whatever I want, don't have to worry really
    8. Rarely, maybe a scoop or two a week
    9.Red meat, eggs
    10.
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  20. #50
    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Definitely. It's also definitely easier said than done sometimes. My problem is that I'm always inclined to push it too far. My "all reps to failure bro" mindset has set me back many a training cycle, and I still take it too far sometimes.
    I've hit a huge stride in pressing strength lately, and it interestingly seems to have followed from a program with annoyingly submaximal benching lol.
    Bench: 325
    Squat: 405
    Deadlift: 505

    "... But always, there remained, the discipline of steel!"
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  21. #51
    Masstrophysicist Camarija's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I also remember MrPb (RIP ) posting a study where the weightlifters who naturally ate "ad libitum" actually gained the "ideal" amount of weight per week for lean bulking:https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...9122713&page=1.
    Great read, thank you! MrPB GOAT!!

    Unfortunately I'm already 14 weeks into my dreamer bulk gaining at least 0.7% body weight a week. I was planning on doubling down for another 14 weeks too, but now this study has me thinking about taking it slower. Really glad you posted this Strawng bro!

    Originally Posted by leanbulk1 View Post
    1. Height

    Are you over 185cm (6ft 1inch)?
    Yes, closer to 190 cm

    2. Body fat

    Are you under 10% bf?
    Are you between 20 - 24% bf?
    Are you between 25 - 29% bf?
    Or are you over 30% bf?
    Right now, probably in the high teens due to bulk

    Before my bulk i was probably around 10%

    Spoiler!


    3. Muscle

    Are you muscular?
    Or are you very muscular?

    [Muscular requires a fat-free mass index (FFMI) of >22.
    For Very Muscular, the FFMI is > 24.67]

    Not by these standards, I'm around 21 FFMI.

    Even during my bulk, I'm not at 22 FFMI, but clearly I'm muscular.

    Spoiler!


    The winner of the natural bodybuilding championship, who is most certainly not even natural, is at 23 FFMI, so this FFMI standard is super weird / wrong to me.


    4. Activity

    Sedentary
    Lightly active
    Active
    Very active

    Gym 4 to 6 days a week, 1 to 2 hours each session

    Don't walk a whole lot unless I'm cutting, and just get in 10 k steps a day


    5. What is your weight?

    184 lbs dry, no creatine, at end of my cut

    214 lbs, full stomach, with creatine, after 14 weeks of bulking


    6. Nutrition

    How many calories do you eat?
    How much protein do you eat?
    How much carbs do you eat?
    How much fat do you eat?

    Depends on cut or bulk
    Cut = around 2,000 to 2,400 calories depending
    Bulk = over 3,000 caloroes

    Protein = at least 0.8 g / lb
    Carbs = whatever fits
    Fat = at least 0.35 g / lb (any less and my hormones fry)


    7. Do you have carbs, fat targets or do you just target protein?

    Yes

    8. Do you consume protein powder and if so how much?

    Yes, when I'm cutting it's my main source of protein.

    9. What are your three favourite protein sources?

    Whey Isolate
    Peanut Butter Powder
    While bulking, this is like liquid ice cream:


    10. What is your one artist/ album to listen to in the gym?

    No music.

    Thank you for helping me
    Answers in bold and blue
    ► Intermediate Bodybuilding Classic Physique ► Renaissance Periodization Programming
    ► https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=180349883
    ► Progress Pictures
    ► https://i.ibb.co/r6RKF4p/Progress-Pictures.png
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  22. #52
    Registered User leanbulk1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by faithbrah View Post
    is this your hobby or your job? you're free to put in 1000% extra effort for maybe 0.1% more results, but you should honestly ask yourself if this is really something you want to focus on instead of sticking to the basics. even pros don't go into this level of detail, think about that
    Hobby. 1000% effort for 0.1% results is a bit dramatic. The time I've taken to learn more about this subject has passed. I could've spent it scratching my ass. I'm glad I invested the time in this. Everyone's different.

    The basics is basically follow the sticky calculator. I like to question everything. What pros? Bodybuilders go through rigorous, thorough theory, or at least their advisors do.

    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I think some people just don't like lifting. So the research & coming up with their own theories is the hobby, and they never really try to make actual gains. Kinda like how some people are always talking about trying fad diets but never really lose weight.
    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    And then some people who simply love lifting end up jacked and strong without knowing any kind of programming principles because they just get in, lift hard, eat, and rest.
    Maybe. I wouldn't know. I love lifting and I'm not coming up with my own theories. I'm simply gathering as much information and filtering what's true. I've already lost a nice amount of bodyat and gained muscle in the past 6 - 7 weeks.

    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I technically made all the best gains of my life doing just that. This would've been the first 5 years of my lifting career, so not just newbie gains. I know plenty other dudes who did the same. In fact, I'd say all the people I know who have the best physiques don't really track.

    I also remember MrPb (RIP ) posting a study where the weightlifters who naturally ate "ad libitum" actually gained the "ideal" amount of weight per week for lean bulking: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=169122713&page=1.
    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yeah it's interesting how it can work out that way... I have definitely noticed the same in many people. At times, myself included. I think much of it comes down to being more intuitive with recovery than anything else... knowing when to go light or take a break instead of being forced to grind yourself into the ground can do wonders.
    Thanks for the link it's an interesting short read. Everyone's different and has different goals. How much bf did you gain while gaining strength those five years? Were the people with the best physiques who don't track, tracking before? Are you all meeting your mineral.and vitamin RDIs?

    If you gained negligible body fat and your great physique friends don't know much about nutrition, congratulations on your success'. I would still like to take some time to learn about a subject that greatly interests me as opposed to winging it and over/ undereating because I may not be as lucky as you all.

    Eventually I'll be able to wing it as well while I'm internalising all this.

    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Plus oddly with all of OP's research it's clear from the original post & subject of the thread that he doesn't even know what "natty" means.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, natty means natural. I don't know how you got that impression by reading any of these posts.

    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    I eat to an RPE 7 most days. On the odd day, I'll go RPE 10 with pizza.
    Yummy, I'll probably indulge in a pizza once I'm done cutting with calorie deficiency and move onto a surplus for bulking.

    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Definitely. It's also definitely easier said than done sometimes. My problem is that I'm always inclined to push it too far. My "all reps to failure bro" mindset has set me back many a training cycle, and I still take it too far sometimes.
    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Tell me about it man... leaving 3 reps in the tank feels like im not even trying, when in fact it's probably what I need to be doing.
    I'd like to suggest/ remind you of Reverse Pyramid Training and lifting AMRAP (as many reps as possble). Meaning, stop when you think you have one rep left in the tank, or when you think your form will be compromised.

    For example, for me my goal is hitting 8 reps on the first set before I add weight for the next workout.

    Week 10
    Bench press
    100x7
    95x7
    90x7
    Notes: Keep at it

    Week 11
    Bench press
    100x7
    95x8
    90x9
    Notes: Didn't hit my goal, but I increased reps on second and third sets

    Week 12
    Bench press
    100x8
    95x9
    90x10
    Notes: Hit my goal, I can increase next week's load by ~2.5%

    I found this through Martin Berkhams book. He explains it better than me on this blog:

    Leangains.com /reverse-pyramid-training-guide/

    Leangains. com /reverse-pyramid-revisited/

    He didn't invent it. I'm just saying this is where I discovered it. He's had thousands of clients and only does what works. Here's another source on RPT written by Randy Herring and posted here on the bodybuilding website. He has over 20 years personal training experience.

    bodybuilding.com /content/reverse-pyramid-training.html

    Hope it helps.

    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    10.
    🤟😛🎸

    Originally Posted by Camarija View Post
    I'm already 14 weeks into my dreamer bulk gaining at least 0.7% body weight a week.
    Congratulations and all the best bulking. Thank you for your response too.
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  23. #53
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leanbulk1 View Post
    I'd like to suggest/ remind you of Reverse Pyramid Training and lifting AMRAP (as many reps as possble). Meaning, stop when you think you have one rep left in the tank, or when you think your form will be compromised.

    For example, for me my goal is hitting 8 reps on the first set before I add weight for the next workout.

    Week 10
    Bench press
    100x7
    95x7
    90x7
    That's a helluva reverse pyramid. The student becomes the teacher, thanks for the lesson!
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