Do you ever Follow Dr Mikes SFR Stimulus to Fatigue ratio rule?

[Samskihero]

SFR stands for Stimulus to Fatigue Ratio, a term coined by [Mike Israetel]. SFR refers to the ratio in which an exercise produces hypertrophy adaptations versus how much fatigue it generates.
An example of an exercise with a bad SFR would be someone who performs the bench press to build the pecs and who doesn't ever feel fatigued in their pecks just their shoulders and elbows after doing the bench press, even if they use good form.

When I started lifting 3-4 years ago I used to only follow exercises that gave a great Stimulus, Mind muscle connection, Burn, Pump and exercises that made the muscle feel weak and disrupted after 3 Sets.
But for years now I stopped chasing that and I do a lot of exercises that'd don't necessarily feel like they are hitting the target muscle all that well.

Examples for me.
Pendlay Rows = Stronger than I have ever been, Barely feel Stimulus in the back muscles though but tons on my bicep and forearms, and quite fatiguing.
Supported Rows = Crazy Stimulus on my rear delts and upper back and biceps also not very fatiguing.
Deadlift = LOTS of fatigue but not much stimulus really... I get sore in the hammies and traps and I guess I only do them because they are fun.

Do you find yourself following and doing exercises that you really only feel a great connection to?

[jaxqen]

If I remember right, his rules regarding SFR are:

1. if you have to choose between 2 exercises that target the same muscle:
a) 1st - you can use a lot of weight, but don't feel the muscle or feel it poorly
b) 2nd - you can use less weight, but feel a very good stimulus

Choose the 2nd one, with the great stimulus and less weight, that's your sure bet.
Joe Bennett says the same thing, btw.

2. he doesn't recommend exercises like deadlifts and rack pulls for hyp, because those have a poor SFR. Oddly, he bb squats, I would say bb squats are as fatiguing as a deadlift.

Camarija can bring some light here, because he does RP

--------------------------------

Personally, I give some importance to burn, pump, feel, stimulus, especially to single joint exercises. For isolation, if you don't feel the targeting muscle, maybe something is wrong. Bad form, too much weight, not a good rep range. I would ask myself why did I stopped: a) because my joints hurt b) because of my breathing, feeling tired, cardiovascular stuff c) because of the target muscle.
But, except the cable straight arm pulldown, where I don't feel my lats, only my tris and shoulders {and I tried a lot of variants} I have no problem with most isolation exercises in feeling the burn.

But:
If I do a kneeling cable rope face pull, but done more like a row, not a double bis, I feel the traps, the rhompboids, the scaps moving towards each other.
If I do a bb row, I have a poor stimulus. Not inexistent, but weaker compared with the face pull.
And yet, I don't think the face pull will make my traps or rhompboids bigger than the row would.

[Samskihero]

If I remember right, his rules regarding SFR are:

1. if you have to choose between 2 exercises that target the same muscle:
a) 1st - you can use a lot of weight, but don't feel the muscle or feel it poorly
b) 2nd - you can use less weight, but feel a very good stimulus

Choose the 2nd one, with the great stimulus and less weight, that's your sure bet.
Joe Bennett says the same thing, btw.

2. he doesn't recommend exercises like deadlifts and rack pulls for hyp, because those have a poor SFR. Oddly, he bb squats, I would say bb squats are as fatiguing as a deadlift.

Camarija can bring some light here, because he does RP

--------------------------------

Personally, I give some importance to burn, pump, feel, stimulus, especially to single joint exercises. For isolation, if you don't feel the targeting muscle, maybe something is wrong. Bad form, too much weight, not a good rep range. I would ask myself why did I stopped: a) because my joints hurt b) because of my breathing, feeling tired, cardiovascular stuff c) because of the target muscle.
But, except the cable straight arm pulldown, where I don't feel my lats, only my tris and shoulders {and I tried a lot of variants} I have no problem with most isolation exercises in feeling the burn.

But:
If I do a kneeling cable rope face pull, but done more like a row, not a double bis, I feel the traps, the rhompboids, the scaps moving towards each other.
If I do a bb row, I have a poor stimulus. Not inexistent, but weaker compared with the face pull.
And yet, I don't think the face pull will make my traps or rhompboids bigger than the row would.

That stop part of info is very interesting, not heard that mentioned either.

Mike Israetel mentioned.

Mind muscle connection
Burn / Pump
Muscle feels weak and disrupted

Which incidentaly less weight more reps usually give a better connection which I kinda forgot about.

Do you feel it's very important to feel a good stimulus or not that important?

[BeginnerGainz]

That stop part of info is very interesting, not heard that mentioned either.

Mike Israetel mentioned.

Mind muscle connection
Burn / Pump
Muscle feels weak and disrupted

Which incidentaly less weight more reps usually give a better connection which I kinda forgot about.

Do you feel it's very important to feel a good stimulus or not that important?

You can achieve great MMC with heavier (relative) weights and less reps, but most people can’t detach their ego from a movement, and just wind up moving weight from point A to point B.

Examples for me.
Pendlay Rows = Stronger than I have ever been, Barely feel Stimulus in the back muscles though but tons on my bicep and forearms, and quite fatiguing.
Supported Rows = Crazy Stimulus on my rear delts and upper back and biceps also not very fatiguing.
Deadlift = LOTS of fatigue but not much stimulus really... I get sore in the hammies and traps and I guess I only do them because they are fun.

Chest supported rows are the GOAT for back development.

[EliKoehn]

You can achieve great MMC with heavier (relative) weights and less reps, but most people can’t detach their ego from a movement, and just wind up moving weight from point A to point B.



Chest supported rows are the GOAT for back development.

Wait, so since when is ego lifting a matter of refusing to lift more weight in spite of form/variation degradation?

And what's your rationale for chest-supported being better? I honestly don't see the point on that one. T-Bars are probably just as good as Pendlays, but if you can row 225 for 10s off the floor with clean form, how is the chest supported machine advantageous?

[MyEgoProblem]

The current popular thinking is..
Its advantage lies in your low back and core (brace) are spared for squats and deads.
And that you can't cheat anywhere near as much.

Pendlays & bors are used in place of deads or for light slots for us now. I built so much size and strength (including my trunk/brace) that 140kg pendlays for reps wasn't a huge struggle and 180kg for bors was a doddle.

I just want more recovery to actually Hinge these days. Gotta specialise when you can pull mid/high 200s or at least push the ratios.

If you don't squat or dead (only. To quad ect and grab curl lool) or are new, your gonna want to so something heavy with a bar, and will have zero recovery issues

Not that I do much lat work at all- most comes from deads and cg bench and the are joocey. And upper back comes from deads and occasional facepulls but when i row now its incline db rows or kroc rows.

[BeginnerGainz]

Wait, so since when is ego lifting a matter of refusing to lift more weight in spite of form/variation degradation?

When you start using compensatory movement patterns, for the sake of lifting more, is ego lifting.

And what's your rationale for chest-supported being better? I honestly don't see the point on that one. T-Bars are probably just as good as Pendlays, but if you can row 225 for 10s off the floor with clean form, how is the chest supported machine advantageous?

Anything where you have a higher degree of stability and don’t have to stabilize the hips is going be advantageous.

I can row over 3 plates with a barbell or trap bar and over 7 plates on a T-bar. Both of which create more lower back fatigue than they do actual back fatigue ie, the low back and hips are the limiting factor.

[RapidFail]

If I remember right, his rules regarding SFR are:

1. if you have to choose between 2 exercises that target the same muscle:
a) 1st - you can use a lot of weight, but don't feel the muscle or feel it poorly
b) 2nd - you can use less weight, but feel a very good stimulus

Choose the 2nd one, with the great stimulus and less weight, that's your sure bet.
Joe Bennett says the same thing, btw.

2. he doesn't recommend exercises like deadlifts and rack pulls for hyp, because those have a poor SFR. Oddly, he bb squats, I would say bb squats are as fatiguing as a deadlift.

Camarija can bring some light here, because he does RP

--------------------------------

Personally, I give some importance to burn, pump, feel, stimulus, especially to single joint exercises. For isolation, if you don't feel the targeting muscle, maybe something is wrong. Bad form, too much weight, not a good rep range. I would ask myself why did I stopped: a) because my joints hurt b) because of my breathing, feeling tired, cardiovascular stuff c) because of the target muscle.
But, except the cable straight arm pulldown, where I don't feel my lats, only my tris and shoulders {and I tried a lot of variants} I have no problem with most isolation exercises in feeling the burn.

But:
If I do a kneeling cable rope face pull, but done more like a row, not a double bis, I feel the traps, the rhompboids, the scaps moving towards each other.
If I do a bb row, I have a poor stimulus. Not inexistent, but weaker compared with the face pull.
And yet, I don't think the face pull will make my traps or rhompboids bigger than the row would.

I'm pretty sure Dr Mike does recommended Deadlifts for beginners, but says once you get really strong, their SFR is usually inferior to other exercises like SLDLs.

[jaxqen]

When you start using compensatory movement patterns, for the sake of lifting more, is ego lifting.
.

How about when you start using compensatory movement patterns because the stimulus is better for the muscle, the concentric is more explosive and you can use more weight with the eccentric?

I've always felt my back better doing a cheated db row, using the cheat to have a better scapular retraction and having more elbow flare, than a proper db row done mainly for the lats.

Explosive concentric, using other muscle groups, keep one second at the top, slow eccentric, stretch.

Wait, so since when is ego lifting a matter of refusing to lift more weight in spite of form/variation degradation?

A problem would be that the border between good form and not that good form is very thin.
And I am not talking about a hip hinge during BOR, but the scap retraction.
With more weight, it becomes more difficult to have a decent scap retraction and a better stretch at the bottom.

I'm pretty sure Dr Mike does recommended Deadlifts for beginners, but says once you get really strong, their SFR is usually inferior to other exercises like SLDLs.

Probably.
I just remember a rant of him (and the others - Helms, Henselman), where all agreed deadlifts are not good and rack pulls are dumb, stupid and Satan itself.
No idea if he was talking about advanced lifters.

[EliKoehn]

Hmm, 7+ plate T-Bar row. Challenge accepted.

[EliKoehn]

"I can row ... over 7 plates on a T-bar."

Alright man, it would be cool if you would upload some of these lifts but I do believe you. Here's tipping my hat to your better row. I gave it a shot but could not do it.

[BeginnerGainz]

Alright man, it would be cool if you would upload some of these lifts but I do believe you. Here's tipping my hat to your better row. I could not do it.

I did nothing but T-bar rows (unsupported) as a main lat movement for like 2 months before I went from 3 to 7 plates.

Just takes practice.

[jaxqen]

Maybe because Eli does it pronated wide and BG does it neutral medium.
Otherwise I don't understand why it would be a lat movement.


Leaving aside your contest, why is this forum anti-science, dr Mike being The Science?
Except Camarija

[air2fakie]

Alright man, it would be cool if you would upload some of these lifts but I do believe you. Here's tipping my hat to your better row. I gave it a shot but could not do it.

If you're the most business casually dressed man in the gym, you always win.

[MyEgoProblem]

Chest supported actuall tbar row is way harder than the free standing landmine row ghat people call a tbar..

Totally different lifts

Plus every tbar machine is leveraged way different

[BeginnerGainz]

Maybe because Eli does it pronated wide and BG does it neutral medium.
Otherwise I don't understand why it would be a lat movement.


Leaving aside your contest, why is this forum anti-science, dr Mike being The Science?
Except Camarija

Who is competing? I just want to look good without clothes on.

Also…

Pronated grip = traps/rhomboid emphasis

Neutral grip = lat emphasis

Oh, and since it got brought up:

Rack pulls are dumb as hell and utterly pointless, and also hard on good bars. Do block pulls instead if you need to do a Supra max pull with a straight bar.

[EliKoehn]

If you're the most business casually dressed man in the gym, you always win.

I guess it's my signature look now lol.

Who is competing? I just want to look good without clothes on.

Also…

Pronated grip = traps/rhomboid emphasis

Neutral grip = lat emphasis

Oh, and since it got brought up:

Rack pulls are dumb as hell and utterly pointless, and also hard on good bars. Do block pulls instead if you need to do a Supra max pull with a straight bar.

Yeah, I'm the only one here indulging some friendly competition. I wanted to see if I could match what you claim. You weren't deliberately challenging me or anything.

I don't often agree with you completely, but I certainly do about rack pulls. If someone struggles with their DL lockout I can see them being a good accessory, but in my experience it's more often than not just a handicap deadlift made to look more impressive because you can use obscene amounts of weight in a partial RoM. Who mentioned them though?

[BeginnerGainz]

I guess it's my signature look now lol.



Yeah, I'm the only one here indulging some friendly competition. I wanted to see if I could match what you claim. You weren't deliberately challenging me or anything.

I don't often agree with you completely, but I certainly do about rack pulls. If someone struggles with their DL lockout I can see them being a good accessory, but in my experience it's more often than not just a handicap deadlift made to look more impressive because you can use obscene amounts of weight in a partial RoM. Who mentioned them though?

Post #9 at the bottom

[paulinkansas]

I lift in my underwear with a wifebeater shirt. Garage. Every now and then a Fed Ex or UPS truck shows up. It might be a male or female driver. I'll walk out and get the package from them while lifting. You should see some of these women's eyeballs when I do that.

[air2fakie]

I guess it's my signature look now lol.

You want to look good when you go for a PR, I get that.