lacking triceps

[fabienEl]

hello my triceps are extremely weak especially the long head i can barely do 2.5 kg 8-10 times on the katana ext
i train then every Thursday with biceps and forearms and they get trained on compound exercises on other days but they are extremely lacking my arms are 90% biceps can anyone please tell me what exercises should i switch or what to do

i do 3-4sets of 8-10 reps and try to up the weight weekly and i do the following for triceps
katana ext(i do 4-5 sets of 2.5 kg each arm alone but the last 2 sets im barely able to do 6 reps per)
ez bar skull crusher (1st set is a dropset i start with bar and 5 kg then drop to 2.5 on each side and do around 3sets of 8-9)
cable tricep pushdown with a rope (i start with 5 plates for the 1st set do it till failure then do 4 plates 10 times the plates arent labeled but i guess 4 plates are 10 kg)

those should target all 3 heads

and the movements that i do that hit triceps as well are :
bench press - incline bench - decline bench
rows and seated rows (i think those hit bi and tri)
military press

those all add up to at least 28 sets where im pushing failure but my triceps arent growing the only head that i can see is the lateral head when i open my arm and if i flex i can barely feel my long/medial head

[TolerantLactose]

How much do you weight? List your full program with weights.

[air2fakie]

How long have you been working out? Since June 2022?

[GeneralSerpant]

If you are just doing one workout with a handful of exercises, then it's going to take some time for your arms to develop. You should be seeing discernable definition hand in hand with how much better you get at the exercises. You have to look for the quality though.


In an overall sense though, 3 distinct resistance movements is not really enough of a profile to have an impact right around the corner from only so much training.

[MyEgoProblem]

Any tricep movement will hit all 3 heads.....

Make the effort
A im to lift more over time
Job done

Anecdote/experience time.

What brought MY own is clients triceps up the most?

(other than benching/pressing with grip inside the rings)

The jm press for power lifters
behind the head ez tricep extentions for bros
high volume band press downs for everyone

Bonus
Dips!
My shoulder injury from contact sports prohibits me from doing them, and ⅓ of people just can't.

But if YOU can?.. They are fantastic

[BG5150]

eat mor chikin

[GeneralSerpant]

I used to try to avoid arm workouts interfering with chest/back workouts, but I made a lot of overall progress just doing arms exercises whenever, trampling all over the other lifts.

[Motovationgreg]

I would focus on getting as much blood in their as possible and keep it there. Maybe even move them to the end of a chest or shoulder workout that way their pre-exhausted. I personally love compound movements such as close-grip bench, or skull crushers with combo or machine and cable press-downs/extensions. You want to overload it in the stretched position.

If you want some great advice go over to youtube and look up Mike Van Wyck who trains a lot of people but his approach is very intelligent and form and I have definitely learned even more than I know watching his videos.

[xsquid99]

Do more triceps work, hit them 2-3x a week. Triceps/arms used to be one of my weakest points also, you just have to keep at it. Took me 2-3 years before I finally started noticing big changes.

[EliKoehn]

I made the most progress when I stopped doing isolations and simply focused on benching. It's not going to evenly stimulate all three component muscles but there is a strong correlation between a big bench and big triceps.

[jaxqen]

I made the most progress when I stopped doing isolations and simply focused on benching. It's not going to evenly stimulate all three component muscles but there is a strong correlation between a big bench and big triceps.

How much do you use your long head of the triceps in benching?
Also, what does "focus on benching" means? I can only assume more volume, since I don't see the connection between dropping isolation and bench being the centre of interest, since you could do both.

Do you know any powerlifter who only does benching? If I look at elitefts & co, they have many accesories for bench, like Tate press & close grip & pushdowns. They do OHP.

[BG5150]

Do dips. Plenty of them. If you can do 3 sets of 12, add some weight.

If you lean forward, you can make it a chest workout, too.

I love dips!

[NotAnAlien]

I would recommend getting away from the cables except for push downs and the dip machine. The katana reminds me alot of doing hi and low pulley cable curls with the biceps. Most people start off at 5-10 on resistance and don't get good form. At the end of the day you might feel a pump, but your probably not making alot of progress. Don't feel bad I got sold on that stuff too. Spent months figuring it out because there is so much **** all over the internet about it.

I started seeing more progress and strength gains when I stopped using almost all the cables and replaced them with stuff like skull crushers and the dip machine. I just worked and worked my ass off for months trying to use cables and machines doing stuff that I saw on YouTube and articles I googled and I never saw any strength or muscle gains until I got off those cable exercises. Because at the end of the day it's all about consistency, volume, and form. And the triceps is 2/3rds of your arm. I had to learn the same thing too and it sucked. So I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but putting a little bit of resistance on a cable or doing a kickback with a 5lb-10 dumb bell for months is going to get you nowhere. The volume and the weight just isn't there. Sure it feels like a good pump. But if you keep track of your volume and the type of weight your using, compared to just going and doing sets of crushers or close grip presses, it's just nowhere close.

Are you getting good form and eating decent? Are you working through the exercise a bit to fast when coming down? Getting good rest?

I see you say your training them on Thursdays. I don't know your full week or routine, but it sounds like you need to separate your push from your pull, and start hitting those muscles groups twice a week. Like biceps and back on one day, chest Tris and shoulders on another. Go twice a week for both. Get three days off a week.

As it is right now from what I understand from your post your getting around 9-12 sets a week on your tri's in one workout.

From what I know the better stimulus for growth and development is to hit them twice a week in the 10-30 set range along with compound exercises like your bench and close grip coming first and on the same day. You might want to stop trying to add weight every week on your isolation exercises unless your able to load in 2.5/5 increments on a bar / ez bar.

It takes awhile to build strength and muscle in the specific groups like triceps or biceps. There's other ways to progressive overload besides adding a bit more weight to your isolation exercises. You could add more sets, decrease rest time to 1-1.5 minutes. Add another 3 sets of an exercise.

With those isolation exercises you might be on the same weight for a three or four weeks sometimes. You got to build your other muscles up too. It's all a system working together.

Don't get yourself messed up man or get in a rush. It takes time. It's pretty easy to get obsessed with and get upset or frustrated.

Oh and you could add some diamond pushups and pull ups to your routine. I wouldn't take the sets past 20. Don't be afraid to use the lift. It can only help if you need it you know.

I would watch out for the dips. Not everyone's body mechanics like it very much and you can really jack your shoulders up. Lots of people like the dip machines. You also might want to start doing skull crushers with dumb bells for a few weeks, maybe even one arm at a time so you know your working your strength up in both your arms. You could do skull crushers with dumb bells for three weeks, then a barbell for three weeks.

[EliKoehn]

How much do you use your long head of the triceps in benching?
Also, what does "focus on benching" means? I can only assume more volume, since I don't see the connection between dropping isolation and bench being the centre of interest, since you could do both.

Do you know any powerlifter who only does benching? If I look at elitefts & co, they have many accesories for bench, like Tate press & close grip & pushdowns. They do OHP.

Didn't see this reply until just now.

Yeah, but they're not beginners. People who post threads stating that they're extremely weak, I don't think are best served by a variety of exercises at that stage. OP says he's doing 28 sets per workout, much of this probably understimulating fluff. In his case, I think it would be a lot better to rein in most of that and do something like a 5x5 bench @9s, for instance.

I (who am far from competitive with my powerlifting stats) do OHP, dips, incline, sometimes tricep isolation, and I don't think only benching is an advisable approach, even though I do regard it as among the very best choices of exercise for chest, triceps and shoulders. I trained machines, pulldowns, kickbacks, etc., at a similarly high volume for a rather long time when I started lifting, and saw only modest improvement in strength or visible size from doing this for literal years. On the other hand, when I started benching and doing dips, the rate of progress was significantly better.

Were this not the testimonial of many other people, I would say that this is anecdotal, but I hardly ever see an exception to this, so I think it can be stated more confidently.

[jaxqen]

1. Idon't think are best served by a variety of exercises at that stage.

2. OP says he's doing 28 sets per workout, much of this probably understimulating fluff.

3. I trained machines, pulldowns, kickbacks, etc., at a similarly high volume for a rather long time when I started lifting, and saw only modest improvement in strength or visible size from doing this for literal years. On the other hand, when I started benching and doing dips, the rate of progress was significantly better.

1. More concrete, when a variety of exercises becomes bad? At what number?

2. That is just bad programming.

3. So you only did cables and machines for several years? That's weird. Usually, every beginner does the amazing bench press, where they go as hard as they can "one more rep bro" style.



Let's say someone who is clearly not strong/experienced does an upper lower.

He can do in one upper day:
5 sets of presses
5 sets of rows/pulls

More concrete, why is it bad if he does some isolation after? It hurts his recovery? Seriously?
I am not talking about fluff and endless sets, evidently.
I am not talking about doing a variety of isolation exercises.
Cable overhead extensions, barbell curls, lateral raise... or pick 2 exercises for each group and alternate them.
Do they hurt? Imo, no.
Do they help? Imo, yes.
Many guys who mostly do compounds have some lagging body parts and they have problems in the aesthetics department.
Sure, maybe aesthetics is not their purpose, but I assume it is OP's purpose.

I wouldn't recommend them if someone doesn't have the time.
Or if he doesn't care that much.
Or if he doesn't recover from a few sets of curls and extensions, although I find this very, very hard to believe.

And I remember we already talking about this.
The ROM, the full ROM, you must have full ROM.
But when you do rows and presses, the bis and tris don't go through a full ROM.


Again, my problem was with "I made the most progress when I stopped doing isolations and simply focused on benching"
So if you did 2 sets of Tate press or overhead extension or pushdowns, would that have hindered your bench progress? Why?

[EiFit91]

Target the long head with isolation exercises. The other heads will probably be hit just fine by compounds but you can add isolations for those too just to be safe.

My favorite long head exercise is high rep skullcrushers (either with an EZ bar or dumbbells), high reps is better for the joints as many people get elbow pain from skullcrushers.

If you want the long head to grow you need to treat the isolation exercise just as seriously as a compound movement - i.e. progressively overload it over time and track your progress

[EliKoehn]

1. More concrete, when a variety of exercises becomes bad? At what number?

2. That is just bad programming.

3. So you only did cables and machines for several years? That's weird. Usually, every beginner does the amazing bench press, where they go as hard as they can "one more rep bro" style.



Let's say someone who is clearly not strong/experienced does an upper lower.

He can do in one upper day:
5 sets of presses
5 sets of rows/pulls

More concrete, why is it bad if he does some isolation after? It hurts his recovery? Seriously?
I am not talking about fluff and endless sets, evidently.
I am not talking about doing a variety of isolation exercises.
Cable overhead extensions, barbell curls, lateral raise... or pick 2 exercises for each group and alternate them.
Do they hurt? Imo, no.
Do they help? Imo, yes.
Many guys who mostly do compounds have some lagging body parts and they have problems in the aesthetics department.
Sure, maybe aesthetics is not their purpose, but I assume it is OP's purpose.

I wouldn't recommend them if someone doesn't have the time.
Or if he doesn't care that much.
Or if he doesn't recover from a few sets of curls and extensions, although I find this very, very hard to believe.

And I remember we already talking about this.
The ROM, the full ROM, you must have full ROM.
But when you do rows and presses, the bis and tris don't go through a full ROM.


Again, my problem was with "I made the most progress when I stopped doing isolations and simply focused on benching"
So if you did 2 sets of Tate press or overhead extension or pushdowns, would that have hindered your bench progress? Why?

Bear in mind, you're criticizing what was only stated as my opinion and anecdotal observation. The intent was for OP to take that for whatever it's worth to him, not to denounce his method or claim that I'm an excellent beacon of advice. I'm just an amateur recreational lifter with a decent amount of progress and experience, and I don't claim to be anything else.

That said, I'll still reply to all of your points within those parameters:

1. More often than not, I see the biggest proponents of exercise variety to be those who are relatively weak in major compound lifts. However, "bad" is question-begging, since as you say, goals are variable, and not everyone is pursuing the same objective, anyway. If we take strength and hypertrophy both as two sides of a generic coin labeled "progress," then I still have personally witnessed the fastest initial progress for either from those who train few if any exercises beyond the major compound relevant to the particular movement pattern in question.

I'll turn it around and ask you why people who can't bench 225 have any business imitating advanced training methods for chest and triceps (especially when they themselves testify that this hasn't been going well for them), when progressing to that lift shouldn't (in most cases) require anything but discipline and consistency with the bench press itself? Do you deny that focusing on barbell exercises to at least 2/3/4 levels (comparable for rows, pullups and OHP) of strength is consistently effective and efficient for both strength and hypertrophy for trainees at least up to this level? If so, why?

2. Ok, why (along the lines of your rebuttal)?

3. Yes, I did. That and curls/lateral raises. I started regularly training barbell compounds about 6 years ago. For the first two-three years, I primarily did machines and cables. Why is that weird? It seems that they're popular with beginners.

EDIT: Also, what do you bench?

[jaxqen]

1. Bear in mind, you're criticizing what was only stated as my opinion and anecdotal observation. The intent was for OP to take that for whatever it's worth to him, not to denounce his method or claim that I'm an excellent beacon of advice. I'm just an amateur recreational lifter with a decent amount of progress and experience, and I don't claim to be anything else.


2. More often than not, I see the biggest proponents of exercise variety to be those who are relatively weak in major compound lifts. However, "bad" is question-begging, since as you say, goals are variable, and not everyone is pursuing the same objective.

I'll turn it around and ask you why people who can't bench 225 have any business imitating advanced training methods for chest and triceps (especially when they themselves testify that this hasn't been going well for them), when progressing to that lift shouldn't (in most cases) require anything but discipline and consistency with the bench press itself? Do you deny that focusing on barbell exercises to at least 2/3/4 levels (comparable for rows, pullups and OHP) of strength is consistently effective and efficient for both strength and hypertrophy for trainees at least up to this level? If so, why?

2. Ok, why (along the lines of your rebuttal)?

3. Yes, I did. That and curls/lateral raises. I started regularly training barbell compounds about 6 years ago. For the first two-three years, I primarily did machines and cables. Why is that weird? It seems that they're popular with beginners.

EDIT: Also, what do you bench?

1. Yes, I criticize an opinion, what should I criticize?
I didn't say you claim to be anything else.
I don't see why it matters who you are. I discuss arguments, not people.
You could be Chris Beardsley, who probably doesn't even lift, but has a lot of knowledge.
PS: Sorry if I sound too direct/harsh, it's not my intention. And what you consider "criticizing" is half criticizing-half curiosity of how you see things.
I have a good opinion about you and you offer good advices.
I don't understand this advice, because one can focus on bench and do isolation after. It's not one or the other.


2. I do somehwat agree that too much variety hurts, but again, what is the number? One should only bb row? Or can he add a chest supported row?

3. Too many sets, compounds or iso. Too much going to failure, who knows... he didn't mention what he does exactly, how should I know.

4. Yes, it is very weird. All the beginners I see do flat or incline bench and incline db press. And seated vertical db press.
And you didn't progress on machines and cables?
What type of workout did you do? Upper lower?
Are you sure the culprit was your selection of exercises or maybe something else?
Maybe several factors?
Just curious...

I don't get the question.
What do I bench or how much I bench or why do I bench?
But anyway, I don't bench much these days, only dbs when I get bored, I bb benched less than you, so there you go, that makes your advice better than mine, I assume, and why i bench... I already said I don't bench.
Not because I consider bb bench inferior, it is not.
.
Although I would ask why barbell is superior to machines or cables.
And you would say stabilization, even though cables are less stable. Or the fixed path for machines, but let's say it is a great machine for that specific person.
And yet, when it comes to stabilization, I don't see you doing a bamboo bar with kettlebells bench press, which requires much more stabilization.
Therefore, I assume that a barbell is the best at being not too unstable but not too stable.
And it's the best for any movement: rows, vertical press, horizontal press, squat, deadlift, which is kind of weird.
God forbid one would do a cambered swiss bar row or a hexbar deadlift or a SSB squat or a javelin press. :P
The medicine has evolved, science has evolved, but the barbell remains.
And my question is: when and why did the barbell replace the rock? And when it did, was there a Rippetoe who said "Noooo, the rock is better"

The last part is a joke, dude.
Please don't take offense.
I don't consider barbell inferior by any means.

And I forgot, you didn't really answer my question.
A beginner does 2 sets of banded pushdowns and 2 sets of hammer curls after his benches and rows.
Does it hurt or not?
Does it help or not?
Too much variety?
The goal being aesthetics.

PS: Sorry if I do not respond the next time, I might be gone for a while.

[paulinkansas]

This is what I do.

6 sets a week direct work for triceps.
6 sets a week where they are an additional muscle for compound lifts for chest and shoulder.
That's it. Nothing else. But I'm a feeble little 55 year old guy as you can see in my picture.

[EliKoehn]

1. Yes, I criticize an opinion, what should I criticize?
I didn't say you claim to be anything else.
I don't see why it matters who you are. I discuss arguments, not people.
You could be Chris Beardsley, who probably doesn't even lift, but has a lot of knowledge.
PS: Sorry if I sound too direct/harsh, it's not my intention. And what you consider "criticizing" is half criticizing-half curiosity of how you see things.
I have a good opinion about you and you offer good advices.
I don't understand this advice, because one can focus on bench and do isolation after. It's not one or the other.


2. I do somehwat agree that too much variety hurts, but again, what is the number? One should only bb row? Or can he add a chest supported row?

3. Too many sets, compounds or iso. Too much going to failure, who knows... he didn't mention what he does exactly, how should I know.

4. Yes, it is very weird. All the beginners I see do flat or incline bench and incline db press. And seated vertical db press.
And you didn't progress on machines and cables?
What type of workout did you do? Upper lower?
Are you sure the culprit was your selection of exercises or maybe something else?
Maybe several factors?
Just curious...

I don't get the question.
What do I bench or how much I bench or why do I bench?
But anyway, I don't bench much these days, only dbs when I get bored, I bb benched less than you, so there you go, that makes your advice better than mine, I assume, and why i bench... I already said I don't bench.
Not because I consider bb bench inferior, it is not.
.
Although I would ask why barbell is superior to machines or cables.
And you would say stabilization, even though cables are less stable. Or the fixed path for machines, but let's say it is a great machine for that specific person.
And yet, when it comes to stabilization, I don't see you doing a bamboo bar with kettlebells bench press, which requires much more stabilization.
Therefore, I assume that a barbell is the best at being not too unstable but not too stable.
And it's the best for any movement: rows, vertical press, horizontal press, squat, deadlift, which is kind of weird.
God forbid one would do a cambered swiss bar row or a hexbar deadlift or a SSB squat or a javelin press. :P
The medicine has evolved, science has evolved, but the barbell remains.
And my question is: when and why did the barbell replace the rock? And when it did, was there a Rippetoe who said "Noooo, the rock is better"

The last part is a joke, dude.
Please don't take offense.
I don't consider barbell inferior by any means.

And I forgot, you didn't really answer my question.
A beginner does 2 sets of banded pushdowns and 2 sets of hammer curls after his benches and rows.
Does it hurt or not?
Does it help or not?
Too much variety?
The goal being aesthetics.

PS: Sorry if I do not respond the next time, I might be gone for a while.

No ill-intent taken man, but thanks for clarifying. It did sound like you were saying "What gives you the right to think that" but mere text is inherently ambiguous. I like these sorts of debates and discussions, and we are on a board where that's supposed to be the point, after all. I mentioned my own recreational lifter status in case you thought I was trying to speak from some kind of air of authority that I don't have a right to: just to say, that I have some experience and success to speak from after several years of regularly lifting and being around this culture, but just as a regular guy, no trophies or especially impressive stats, even.

Regarding the rest of your question, I would venture to guess that doing extra exercises afterwards is probably a good idea for someone decently into novice territory, and if progression is ensuing on the main lifts, then I don't see how it could be a problem. But the important difference is usually those who insist on doing lots of fluff exercises try to make them the bread and butter of their routine without making real progress, while touting the supposedly superior benefits of these exercises or whatever.

Very good point about the bar being "perfect" and a Mark Rocketoe back in the ancient world. It's not perfect, of course, but I think there are clear and obvious differences between it and a lot of substitutes in the modern gym (the hex bar, for instance, is easier to deadlift than conventional), but you're absolutely right that if I was a true purist, I should only use a bamboo bar, incline and close-grip. Since I prefer a flat bench with a shoulder-width grip, I'm technically "cheating" the maximal intensity version for that movement pattern, therefore, why is a flat bench more virtuous in this regard to a converging chest press machine? It's a good point, and I'll mostly agree with what that gets at. I would also agree that someone that got strong with a bamboo bar would probably turn around and be far stronger on a regular flat bench if they acclimated to it, in a way that a converging chest press guy would not, all hypertrophy benefits of the latter aside.

So (and I feel oddly off-kilter in my thinking right now, if this post lacks any clarity), the key point here in my opinion is that the barbell is an excellent variety of a free weight that can be loaded heavily. Really anything along those lines would accomplish more or less the same "magic" in a way that machines and cable isolations never seem to for most people relatively new to lifting. I did get relatively strong pulls from the cables, but I always seemed to have an aptitude for pulls; and yeah, everything else didn't seem to progress much until I started lifting free weights seriously and consistently.

Also, you're probably a lot leaner and look better than me, so if I have a bigger bench that doesn't mean that whatever I have to say wins against your comments by default. That was supposed to be just a fun jab.

[TAWS6]

All these lagging body part threads completely depend on where you’re at in your training. As always there’s not enough info.. If you’re an advanced lifter you could do tricep specialization phases. I did close grip bench 5x5 and overhead extensions 3x12 Mon/thur while maintaining everything else. If you’re intermediate or below I think getting stronger on pressing movements with a little isolation should work fine. Naturals with big triceps always have strong pressing lifts. Tbh a lot of people are lagging everywhere.


You’ll get much better advise if you post your entire program and progression plan.

[GeneralSerpant]

Also, you're probably a lot leaner and look better than me, so if I have a bigger bench that doesn't mean that whatever I have to say wins against your comments by default. That was supposed to be just a fun jab.

At what point though did you feel confident in your triceps? It's not particularly common that I see people benching 3 plates in the gym.

[GeneralSerpant]

You’ll get much better advise if you post your entire program and progression plan.

Where is the fun in that?

[GeneralSerpant]

i do 3-4sets of 8-10 reps and try to up the weight weekly and i do the following for triceps
katana ext(i do 4-5 sets of 2.5 kg each arm alone but the last 2 sets im barely able to do 6 reps per)
ez bar skull crusher (1st set is a dropset i start with bar and 5 kg then drop to 2.5 on each side and do around 3sets of 8-9)
cable tricep pushdown with a rope (i start with 5 plates for the 1st set do it till failure then do 4 plates 10 times the plates arent labeled but i guess 4 plates are 10 kg)

As these aren't really numbers that suggest an advanced stage in lifting, you will have to spend a moderate amount of time developing these lifts if you are going down the path of the isolation extraordinaire. Do not worry so much about exhausting the muscle by flexing through the movement on these exercises, but just focus on making the weight lighter with more precise form.

[TAWS6]

Where is the fun in that?

Well the program is going to be a disaster more than likely. Everyone on here thinks they need to train like an advanced lifter to make progress lol

[EliKoehn]

At what point though did you feel confident in your triceps? It's not particularly common that I see people benching 3 plates in the gym.

Thanks, though I am surprised it's regarded as rare on a bodybuilding forum, when I just work out at a YMCA and see it regularly. I know by name and frequently see probably 10 other people who regularly lift and put up 3 plates or more.

I noticed they started to look relatively big around the time I could easily rep 225 any day of the week, so, end of 2018/beginning of 2019. They're still not that big though, just moderately developed and it's apparent that I lift in a shirt, etc. My biceps have always fared better between the two, though.

[GeneralSerpant]

Thanks, though I am surprised it's regarded as rare on a bodybuilding forum, when I just work out at a YMCA and see it regularly. I know by name and frequently see probably 10 other people who regularly lift and put up 3 plates or more.

My gym actually probably isn't the best for a powerlifting or much less bodybuilding sample.

If you're saying though that those other lifters aren't either at least 73 inches tall, are shorter and have the same body weight, or haven't been training for a dedicated long amount of time, then I'm not inclined to call it common.

[TAWS6]

Most people will never bench over 225 at your average gym. Never mind 3 plates. The average gym goer enters the gym and pumps and fluffs around for 2 hours accomplishing very little in terms of progression.

[TolerantLactose]

Most people will never bench over 225 at your average gym. Never mind 3 plates. The average gym goer enters the gym and pumps and fluffs around for 2 hours accomplishing very little in terms of progression.

That's more than the squat or deadlift 1rm for 90% of regulars at my gym.

[TAWS6]

That's more than the squat or deadlift 1rm for 90% of regulars at my gym.

Yeah probably. You want to get out of novice land as fast as possible. Most people never escape.