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  1. #31
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Pullups then when they become too easy then weighted pullups
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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  2. #32
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    No, I've never seen anyone in a gym doing the 45 angle tuck on the rear delt fly.
    Or being recommended here on this forum.

    I'll try them on cable and machine, but seems to have better freedom with dumbbells.

    OK, but, assuming you make an experiment with 10 young guys, all non-lifters, and they only do deadlifts for 5 years. Hexbar or barbell, doesn't matter.
    Don't you think they will have decent backs? Clearly lagging on the lats, but still... big traps, rhomboids, rear delts, erectors.

    I'm not saying this would be better than doing rows, vertical pulls, face pulls, pullovers.
    Probably not.
    Im Honestly not Suprised you haven't seen it on THIS forum much tbh. Unfortunately most of the population is either behind the times or just a bit... None lifty.

    Kudos for finding this for your self organically!

    Cables.. You need a fairy close pair of stacks, the standards "crossover" Station is a bit too wide for the right angle of pull.

    Lats from deads..
    If you do higher hips, horizontal torso with the bar our over toes (eddy Coan or Dan green stiffleg style) you will get a huge lat stimulus. My opinion is a deadlift isn't just the super optimised comp dead. - for clarity

    Probably not as good a rows et al?
    Probably not.. But id you can tolerate a lot of volume its gonna be better than the average.

    Especially If you add in all the other 'secondary' lat work you get from stuff too.

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  3. #33
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GrouchyUSMC View Post
    ^^I agree with all this. It's not as simple as peeking at ExRx and arguing that because it's not a primary mover it's ineffective. That just shows a lack of knowledge of physiology and kinesiology. Isometrics would have no effect if this was the case. Obviously you want other pulling motions in conjunction with it for bodybuilding purposes, but barring any medical reasons a heavy hinge movement should be an integral part of anyone's back workout.
    Of course isometrics work…

    At long muscle lengths. Hence why squats don’t do diddly for hamstrings since they don’t change length in the movement.

    Also, no one is saying the back isn’t involved, of course there is a stimulus. Just not nearly as much as you could get from a good row variation.

    Lastly, you could never do heavy deadlifts, and still maximize your back (and leg, for that matter) development. So a “heavy hinge” is not at all necessary for a big back or even legs.
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  4. #34
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Not trying to start WWIII, but even if someone doesn't think DLs are the best or even a necessary back exercise, I in all seriousness think it's absolutely a good (and dare I say one of the best) exercises for hitting the back in its entirety. I'm surprised anyone even wants to debate whether it's a good back exercise, although I recognize their right to do so & have their own opinion on the matter.
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  5. #35
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Anyway. Not sure if OP is still listening but here is something I program for upper body days for clients.

    One day will have a lat-focused row, like this “J” row:
    https://youtu.be/vyA4NsR-qI8

    And an upper back-focused pulldown like a pronated lat pulldown/pull up.

    The other day will have a lat-focused pulldown variation, chin or V-grip pulldowns with a lean, pullovers if you’re gym is blessed with a machine pullover, or single arm pulldown.

    Follow that up with pronated rows of some kind, preferably machine and always supported.

    Your hinge work (done on lower body days) will take care of your lower back. You are doing hinges, right?

    Every upper workout I do starts with external rotator work, and rear delt work I generally go to band pull aparts or face pulls. Even though they aren’t the best “rear delt” exercises, they are still a good stimulus and extra upper back work is always a plus.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 06-29-2022 at 07:00 PM.
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  6. #36
    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Lastly, you could never do heavy deadlifts, and still maximize your back (and leg, for that matter) development. So a “heavy hinge” is not at all necessary for a big back or even legs.
    With rare exception, you won't find too many well developed bodybuilders who didn't put their time in with deadlifts, cleans, etc.

    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Anyway. Not sure if OP is still listening but here is something I program for upper body days for clients.

    One day will have a lat-focused row, like this “J” row:
    https://youtu.be/vyA4NsR-qI8

    And an upper back-focused pulldown like a pronated lat pulldown/pull up.

    The other day will have a lat-focused pulldown variation, chin or V-grip pulldowns with a lean, pullovers if you’re gym is blessed with a machine pullover, or single arm pulldown.

    Follow that up with pronated rows of some kind, preferably machine and always supported.

    Your hinge work (done on lower body days) will take care of your lower back. You are doing hinges, right?

    Every upper workout I do starts with external rotator work, and rear delt work I generally go to band pull aparts or face pulls. Even though they aren’t the best “rear delt” exercises, they are still a good stimulus and extra upper back work is always a plus.
    I thought you were a truck driver. When did you start training people?
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  7. #37
    Registered User jaxqen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    At long muscle lengths. Hence why squats don’t do diddly for hamstrings since they don’t change length in the movement.
    .
    Low bar squat lengthens them a little more than high bar.
    But yeah, I see your point.

    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Cables.. You need a fairy close pair of stacks, the standards "crossover" Station is a bit too wide for the right angle of pull.

    Lats from deads..
    If you do higher hips, horizontal torso with the bar our over toes (eddy Coan or Dan green stiffleg style) you will get a huge lat stimulus. My opinion is a deadlift isn't just the super optimised comp dead. - for clarity
    I'll try it on the seated row cable, where I have dual cables closer and I can cross them, since I don't have the "smart" crossover station.


    If I'm not wrong, our EliKoehn does them like that.

    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Not trying to start WWIII
    I like to learn from the mistakes of the people who take my advice.
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  8. #38
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GrouchyUSMC View Post
    With rare exception, you won't find too many well developed bodybuilders who didn't put their time in with deadlifts, cleans, etc.



    I thought you were a truck driver. When did you start training people?
    I’ve been a certified trainer for a year now.
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  9. #39
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I’ve been a certified trainer for a year now.
    What certification did you choose & why? (srs Q, no agenda)
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  10. #40
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    What certification did you choose & why? (srs Q, no agenda)
    ISSA because it was self paced, and included nutritionist so I didn’t have to do that separately. Also had CPR/AED, and my AHA cert was about to expire so it came in handy.
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  11. #41
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Had my certs for 20+ years and took a refresher for continued education...

    Its still all **** 😂😂 only good for getting insurance to train people..

    I would use about 5% of what you learn.
    FMH crew - Couch.

    If a post sounds like N=1 and that they have no experience coaching anyone but them selves?

    Do the math. You ain't that person, their experience probably isn't going to be yours. Can still be useful for inspiration - try things, follow athlete response and track trends In your training.
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  12. #42
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    ISSA because it was self paced, and included nutritionist so I didn’t have to do that separately. Also had CPR/AED, and my AHA cert was about to expire so it came in handy.
    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Had my certs for 20+ years and took a refresher for continued education...

    Its still all **** ������������ only good for getting insurance to train people..

    I would use about 5% of what you learn.
    Yeah I have no desire/reason to get certified, was just curious if people tended to go for the quickest, easiest, most convenient and/or cheapest of the popular accreditations.
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  13. #43
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Yeah I have no desire/reason to get certified, was just curious if people tended to go for the quickest, easiest, most convenient and/or cheapest of the popular accreditations.
    The cheapest & quickest one you can get that is recognised and can get your insured.

    Anything else is essentially a waste of time & money.

    Unless you to go uni/college for a masters or doctorate ect that is where the real learning happens - even then, with his fast info is changing, outdated often.

    I got mine refreshed, mostly to have a fresh piece of paper to get insured to coach in the gym i manage. Extra cash is always good.
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    If a post sounds like N=1 and that they have no experience coaching anyone but them selves?

    Do the math. You ain't that person, their experience probably isn't going to be yours. Can still be useful for inspiration - try things, follow athlete response and track trends In your training.
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  14. #44
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Had my certs for 20+ years and took a refresher for continued education...

    Its still all **** 😂😂 only good for getting insurance to train people..

    I would use about 5% of what you learn.
    This.

    I look at it like I did earning my CDL: it is just a foot in the door, the real learning happens when you do it in real time
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  15. #45
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    This.

    I look at it like I did earning my CDL: it is just a foot in the door, the real learning happens when you do it in real time
    Boom!

    Currently 8 years in for THIS stint of training. And 6 coaching.
    FMH crew - Couch.

    If a post sounds like N=1 and that they have no experience coaching anyone but them selves?

    Do the math. You ain't that person, their experience probably isn't going to be yours. Can still be useful for inspiration - try things, follow athlete response and track trends In your training.
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