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  1. #61
    Registered User Cantplankwell's Avatar
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    Educate me further please...

    So basically the federal government is not in the business of regulating or controlling firearms on an individual level, or enforcing uniform standards among the states, ....or is it?....and its not enforced.

    Its up to local states, municipalities etc to create the rules and enforce them? Re back on the laws that most of you say are not enforced.

    Tried to read up on this at lunch here, but found it terribly confusing.
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  2. #62
    Pretzel maker NotJtbny's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cantplankwell View Post
    Educate me further please...

    So basically the federal government is not in the business of regulating or controlling firearms on an individual level, or enforcing uniform standards among the states, ....or is it?....and its not enforced.

    Its up to local states, municipalities etc to create the rules and enforce them? Re back on the laws that most of you say are not enforced.

    Tried to read up on this at lunch here, but found it terribly confusing.
    Each state makes their own rules. Within those states jurisdictions can make further rules. It's not Federal except for the right to bear arms and even that can vary (I.E NYS is a may issue state meaning they may not). Just because I may have a license in one state doesn't mean I can own/possess in another unless there is reciprocation between those states. It's not like a drivers license that is valid in all 50.

    Edit: you will read that all states require a background check. While this is true when purchasing from an authorized dealer its NOT true in many states with private sales. They will leave that part out.
    Last edited by NotJtbny; 05-25-2022 at 12:14 PM.
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  3. #63
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cantplankwell View Post
    Educate me further please...

    So basically the federal government is not in the business of regulating or controlling firearms on an individual level, or enforcing uniform standards among the states, ....or is it?....and its not enforced.

    Its up to local states, municipalities etc to create the rules and enforce them? Re back on the laws that most of you say are not enforced.

    Tried to read up on this at lunch here, but found it terribly confusing.
    Firearms are regulated Federally by the ATF. There is a mandatory form that must be filled out and a background check completed for the purchase of a firearm through a dealer. States can create laws more stringent than Federal laws. In my home state for example, aside from the ATF background check, everyone who owns firearms must have a separate "permission slip" called a FOID card. This allows one to possess, purchase firearms and ammunition in IL. Criminal background checks on all FOID card holders are run daily to ensure that the person remains eligible for the FOID card. This process has had zero impact on the lawless violence and gun crimes in Chicago which are up 17% already this year, after setting records for the last two years. Gun laws do not have any impact on gun crime because criminals do not follow laws (murder also being illegal). When criminals are caught with guns, even in the act of violent crimes, they are pretty much let off with an ankle monitoring bracelet here by the attorney generals office. There is no punishment unless a murder is committed (*depending on the case, but I wont even get into that).

    Fixing the problem is 100% a mental health problem as a root cause, and intervening before these types of events occur. I cannot think of any recent events where there were not at least signs that the person was going to commit an act. In this case it seems that the shooter posted on facebook he was going to shoot his grandmother 30 minutes before the school shooting occurred. After that he posted that he had shot his grandmother and was going to shoot up a school. The technology exists and is used to track about every single American who has a cellphone or uses a computer. I am surprised that Facebook cannot be found to be somewhat complicit in that posts were made on the platform and actions were not taken such as contacting law enforcement at the location.

    Preventing future occurrences for these types of events requires a multifaceted approach of better screening for people exhibiting signs of violence, better security at all schools including more sophisticated security systems and discretely armed personnel. Soft targets need to be made into hard targets. Current laws need to be enforced Regardless if an act of violence occurred or not (straw purchases etc.). Guns are simply objects, the act of violence originates from a person. A 75 year old homeless Chicago guy known as the "walking man" was lit of fire last night for sport while sleeping on lower whacker drive. He's in critical condition with burns over 50% of his body (not sure if he'll survive). He was also attacked and nearly beat to death with a baseball bat several years ago. It's not the guns, evil people do evil things. Evil people need to be filtered out of society. This includes ongoing assessment and intervention by law enforcement (lets not defund them just yet), the court system doing their part in prosecuting criminals, and making soft targets into hard targets that are not easily breeched.
    Last edited by Plateauplower; 05-25-2022 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Spellings
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Firearms are regulated Federally by the ATF. There is a mandatory form that must be filled out and a background check completed for the purchase of a firearm through a dealer. States can create laws more stringent than Federal laws. In my home state for example, aside from the ATF background check, everyone who owns firearms must have a separate "permission slip" called a FOID card. This allows one to possess, purchase firearms and ammunition in IL. Criminal background checks on all FOID card holders are run daily to ensure that the person remains eligible for the FOID card. This process has had zero impact on the lawless violence and gun crimes in Chicago which are up 17% already this year, after setting records for the last two years. Gun laws do not have any impact on gun crime because criminals do not follow laws (murder also being illegal). When criminals are caught with guns, even in the act of violent crimes, they are pretty much let off with an ankle monitoring bracelet here by the attorney generals office. There is no punishment unless a murder is committed (*depending on the case, but I wont even get into that).

    Fixing the problem is 100% a mental health problem as a root cause, and intervening before these types of events occur. I cannot think of any recent events where there were not at least signs that the person was going to commit an act. In this case it seems that the shooter posted on facebook he was going to shoot his grandmother 30 minutes before the school shooting occurred. After that he posted that he had shot his grandmother and was going to shoot up a school. The technology exists and is used to track about every single American who has a cellphone or uses a computer. I am surprised that Facebook cannot be found to be somewhat complicit in that posts were made on the platform and actions were not taken such as contacting law enforcement at the location.

    Preventing future occurrences for these types of events requires a multifaceted approach of better screening for people exhibiting signs of violence, better security at all schools including more sophisticated security systems and discretely armed personnel. Soft targets need to be made into hard targets. Current laws need to be enforced weather an act of violence occurred or not (straw purchases etc.). Guns are simply objects, the act of violence originates from a person. A 75 year old homeless Chicago guy known as the "walking man" was lit of fire last night for sport while sleeping on lower whacker drive. He's in critical condition with burns over 50% of his body (not sure if he'll survive). He was also attacked and nearly beat to death with a baseball bat several years ago. It's not the guns, evil people do evil things.
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  5. #65
    Da1UnV bodyhard's Avatar
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    I cant wrap my head around anyone being capable of shooting children, it's so heart breaking and sickening.
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  6. #66
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    I cant wrap my head around anyone being capable of shooting children, it's so heart breaking and sickening.
    Yeah, me either. In my conversations about this topic with FBI/Homeland agents is that most of the people committing these acts want to die, but are too scared to handle it themselves. Better security might help facilitate that before innocent lives are lost. There is no reason money cannot be invested into school security instead of the many extremely wasteful programs that funds are allocated to.
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  7. #67
    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    On that note, we can learn something from Israel. You can’t buy a gun until you are 20 IF you went to military (draft is mandatory) and if you didn’t go to military, can’t get a gun until 27. Can’t have assault weapon in most cases, have to provide health bill to purchase a gun and homeland security crosschecks health records few times a year. We can’t control crazy, and we don’t know when someone can lose their chit, but we can make hard to get weapons.
    Israel also has a national police agency and about 1/3 more officers per citizen, which the US does not have, and by proximity takes their border security a lot more seriously (incoming gun trafficking is a major issue).

    I feel the US government avoids a singular national police agency because often those lead towards corruption, bribery, etc.
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  8. #68
    Da1UnV bodyhard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Yeah, me either. In my conversations about this topic with FBI/Homeland agents is that most of the people committing these acts want to die, but are too scared to handle it themselves. Better security might help facilitate that before innocent lives are lost. There is no reason money cannot be invested into school security instead of the many extremely wasteful programs that funds are allocated to.
    But if you want to die why take others with you, and why the fck children??? My God this sh!t has my head all fcked up the more I see those beautiful children.
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  9. #69
    Registered User thomashenry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Bull****. I came to the US in the 90’s as a teenager and I vividly remember Dave Koresh fiasco. I remember asking my mom how something like this possible in the US? I even wrote a paper about it first year of college, because I was so moved by it. No anymore. Anyway, I remember that paper though. Government came in and burned the whole compound with kids and women and no f@cks were given. And I learned a lesson - if government wants you, they coming and you gonna die with yo guns on site.
    I am assuming you`re aware that Communism Slaughtered 100 million people, not too mention fascism, most unarmed, in the last Century, between , China, Russia, & or Soviet Bloc Nations, Hungary, Poland, E Germany Etc, as well as Cambodia, The Governments, Ideology of those nation`s KILLED their own Citizens, arbitrarily and with Purpose, cleansing ! Our Founder`s insured that the Citizenry has the "right to keep & bear arm`s", to defend ourselves with deadly force from tyrants and criminals & madmen exactly as I mentioned above, Civil sane law abiding Citizens do not go on Killing spree`s looking to kill innocents en masse ! there are many examples throughout mankind`s history, it`s not mutually exclusive to the United Stares

    The Root Cause IMO is simple, it is evil, and that cannot be legislated, any of those clowns in higher office here and elsewhere are just arrogant to think otherwise, you cannot curtail that which is evil, and we all possess it to an extent, most do not act upon it in the manner this person did, but we all wrestle with it in some way shape or forum

    If and I still believe we are a civil sane society, then we must step up and get to some sane civil solutions to this "evil" that is permeating and metastasizing here and we cannot rely on the cadre of miscreants in DC to help
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  10. #70
    Registered User thomashenry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Bull****. I came to the US in the 90’s as a teenager and I vividly remember Dave Koresh fiasco. I remember asking my mom how something like this possible in the US? I even wrote a paper about it first year of college, because I was so moved by it. No anymore. Anyway, I remember that paper though. Government came in and burned the whole compound with kids and women and no f@cks were given. And I learned a lesson - if government wants you, they coming and you gonna die with yo guns on site.
    I am assuming you`re aware that Communism Slaughtered 100 million people, not too mention fascism, most unarmed, in the last Century, between , China, Russia, & or Soviet Bloc Nations, Hungary, Poland, E Germany Etc, as well as Cambodia, The Governments, Ideology of those nation`s KILLED their own Citizens, arbitrarily and with Purpose, cleansing ! Our Founder`s insured that the Citizenry has the "right to keep & bear arm`s", to defend ourselves with deadly force from tyrants and criminals & madmen exactly as I mentioned above, Civil sane law abiding Citizens do not go on Killing spree`s looking to kill innocents en masse ! there are many examples throughout mankind`s history, it`s not mutually exclusive to the United Stares

    The Root Cause IMO is simple, it is evil, and that cannot be legislated, any of those clowns in higher office here and elsewhere are just arrogant to think otherwise, you cannot curtail that which is evil, and we all possess it to an extent, most do not act upon it in the manner this person did, but we all wrestle with it in some way shape or forum

    If and I still believe we are a civil sane society, then we must step up and get to some sane civil solutions to this "evil" that is permeating and metastasizing here and we cannot rely on the cadre of miscreants in DC to help

    If someone wants to kill another, a Gun is just a means to an end, there is an entire Array of other Methods, Tim McVeigh comes to mind, from Cain and Abel, Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great, Napolean, the Pharoh's, Turks etc, Conquering and murder are as old as days
    Last edited by thomashenry; 05-25-2022 at 02:17 PM.
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  11. #71
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    But if you want to die why take others with you, and why the fck children??? My God this sh!t has my head all fcked up the more I see those beautiful children.
    Yeah I can’t wrap my mind around it either…In some cases it could be retaliation against humanity, in general, for not recognizing or helping them with their mental illness. I think that plastering it all over the news probably encourages it as well, to some extent, for some of the perpetrators. They seek attention or notoriety by committing the most heinous act while inflicting the highest amount of casualties to “outdo” the last one. This theme has been apparent in several of these loonies. I feel that the punishment should be death for these people who survive their attack plan, preferably by firing squad and publicly available for viewing. I don’t think an eye for an eye is “cruel and unusual punishment”.
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    These types of video games don't help

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xC7gjH8rzU
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Constitution has been amended over 20 something times.
    Good luck getting 38 states to agree on anything these days.

    Children dying in schools every damn year. I simply don’t get it. Maybe because I wasn’t born here. People care more about guns than their own children?

    The simple truth is that most Americans don't want restrictions on their right to own firearms. Running on a gun control platform in the US often loses you votes. That's not a "system" failure, but rather a reflection of the voting population. Not to mention there are easily 5 (and probably 6) current SCOTUS judges that would throw out any kind of federal licensure law.

    That's just the reality we live in.
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  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    These types of video games don't help

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xC7gjH8rzU



    That's pretty fukked up Tommy.....





    I feel for the officials that have to investigate the crime scene as well, some of what they see will never be unseen..Many impacted by the gruesome act. Sad stuff!
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    I cant wrap my head around anyone being capable of shooting children, it's so heart breaking and sickening.
    That is why it is a mental health issue, no normal human being is capable of such heinous crime. The lazy will always blame the gun.
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    Originally Posted by iabs View Post
    That is why it is a mental health issue, no normal human being is capable of such heinous crime. The lazy will always blame the gun.
    So what do you suggest for predictive behavioral analysis, any suggestions are helpful?
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    If it was one of my children, I will not be able to live after. No way. Mass school shootings only happen in America at the rate that they happen. But nothing will ever change because ma guns.
    You and The president might not follow international news closely, but mass public shootings are much more common and deadly in the rest of the world than they are in the United States. The U.S. contains 4.6% of the world’s population, yet accounts for only 1% of the world’s shooters. Over the last decade, Europe has experienced deadlier mass public shootings than any of those in the U.S. -- ever. In November 2015, for example, 130 people were shot to death at a concert in Paris. In July 2011, 67 people were shot to death in Norway. European countries such as France, Finland, Norway, and a number of Eastern European countries have higher per capita death rates from mass public shootings than the United States does. Yet, all of these countries have stricter gun control laws than we do.
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    That's pretty fukked up Tommy.....





    I feel for the officials that have to investigate the crime scene as well, some of what they see will never be unseen..Many impacted by the gruesome act. Sad stuff!
    you’re right. It goes way past just the shootings. So many lives were affected. It all seems so distant until it happens in your backyard. Hundreds of lives will never be the same. Texas needs to step up their game. No DOJ check and no cooling period. Here in California even WE do that….
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    you’re right. It goes way past just the shootings. So many lives were affected. It all seems so distant until it happens in your backyard. Hundreds of lives will never be the same. Texas needs to step up their game. No DOJ check and no cooling period. Here in California even WE do that….
    A two day cooling period does not matter for a planned event. He purchased the firearm and ammunition legally with a federal background check. Short of early engagement on-site, there’s nothing that could have been done here.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    So what do you suggest for predictive behavioral analysis, any suggestions are helpful?
    Behavioral analysis isn't a perfect science, trying to tie it to a background check is going to cause all kinds of issues, particularly when these laws are being written by people who know jack sh*t about guns or psychology.
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    A two day cooling period does not matter for a planned event. He purchased the firearm and ammunition legally with a federal background check. Short of early engagement on-site, there’s nothing that could have been done here.
    there is no background check in Texas.

    Cooling periods are 10-28 days depending on the state.
    Last edited by Tommy W.; 05-25-2022 at 08:36 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    These types of video games don't help

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xC7gjH8rzU
    Or these.

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    Originally Posted by thomashenry View Post
    You and The president might not follow international news closely, but mass public shootings are much more common and deadly in the rest of the world than they are in the United States. The U.S. contains 4.6% of the world’s population, yet accounts for only 1% of the world’s shooters. Over the last decade, Europe has experienced deadlier mass public shootings than any of those in the U.S. -- ever. In November 2015, for example, 130 people were shot to death at a concert in Paris. In July 2011, 67 people were shot to death in Norway. European countries such as France, Finland, Norway, and a number of Eastern European countries have higher per capita death rates from mass public shootings than the United States does. Yet, all of these countries have stricter gun control laws than we do.

    Countries that are full of drug dealers such as Mexico, Columbia and Italy (mafia) are much more violent and dangerous than America because the drug dealers all have heavy weapons and ammo, the citizens don't, hell they kill all their political opposition in those countries as well.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    these laws are being written by people who know jack sh*t about guns or psychology.
    Spent the last couple days with legislators in my state. Their job is not to be experts at everything but represent the interest of their constituents, to do that they rely on lobbyists and experts in the field.

    Talked with a guy who was a war Veteran with 2 Purple Hearts, served as an LEO then a police Captain for 30 years, still occasionally works as a cop when the assembly is not in session.

    He said that when someone comes at him with an idea for a law, he asks them who would oppose it. Then he calls them for their input. Then he makes a bunch of other phone calls to people who are experts in that area before making any decisions.

    He was not some slick lawyer, looked like a Grampa in a suit.

    I think the MSM unfairly discredits what public servants really do.
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    there is no background check in Texas.
    Federal law requires background checks for guns purchased through licensed firearm dealers. So, maybe you meant to say that Texas does not require a background check?
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Can’t have assault weapon in most cases, .
    You keep referring to the term "assault weapon", exactly what is that?
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Have you ever lived outside US? Everything you listed exists in the rest of the world Ans yet, US where the citizens are armed more than any other citizen in any other country, has non stop mass shootings over and over and over again.
    I have been around the world and in a lot of countries such as France, Italy, Thailand, Mexico, etc the cops are heavily armed and they are everywhere with full auto firearms. Every train & bus station you will see 5-6 heavily armed police. The airports have canines in the baggage area sniffing for drugs as well as for firearms....no the same dog doesn't perform both duties. To the people there its a way of life but it's very unnerving if you have never witnessed it, definitely a police state vibe. It's one of the reasons vehicles are used to run people over as well as a lot of knife, machete and ax attacks.

    You ever get the police reports from countries in africa such as Syria, Libya, Nigeria, etc? Lot of murders happening there from firearms as well as anything else you can think of. Hell look at whats happening in South Africa, it's a damn near war zone in certain areas of some cities.

    In the USA in 2018 45,000 people died from firearms and of those 65% were suicides, yet we also had 97,000 people die from poisoning. 92,000 dead from drug overdoses.
    250,000 people on average die every year here from medical mistakes yet all we focus on is firearms when it's Dr's, Nurses & hospital visits that are far more deadly.
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    Originally Posted by Bando View Post
    This would work because these guys are cowards, but at what expense? I can't imagine a world where I have to bring my Kindergartner in past an armed soldier to learn her ABC's.

    I think if it was more clandestine it would be more appropriate. Let Teachers CC. Have that retired military guy buzz everyone in, but be out of site. Make it widely known to adults that there is an armed presence waiting for anyone who shows up in body armor and he/she has armor piercing rounds.

    No more soft targets, but for Heaven's sake don't terrify little kids with armed militia at the door.
    You ever been to Mexico, brah? They have pairs of dudes in casual street clothes standing outside banks and jewelry stores holding AK-47's across their chests. Security is not taken for granted in other parts of the world like it is in the US. And TBH, most parents would rather have their children seeing armed guards for their protection than to have to be sitting around outside a school for hours waiting to hear if your child survived or not.

    And I disagree with forcing teachers to be armed security guards. That's not their function, and security is better left to professionals.
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    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    You keep referring to the term "assault weapon", exactly what is that?
    Have understand that as weapon that is designed to be very efficient shooting a large amount of rounds, quick and easy to load, large ammunition magazine , easy to quickly aim and fire. Very efficient-powerful

    Keep in mind I am not a gun guy, don't know many who are. I have fired an SKS once at a range though, and I did not see the appeal compared to some of the hunting rifles that I tried out.
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    lol, historically citizens giving their guns to the government has never ended well. Those Aussies learned that also with their extreme lockdowns. Gun laws don’t work. Our states with the toughest laws have the most shootings, states with guns and can Constitutional carry have the least. Maybe we go back to the Wild West with everyone strapped. You go in a gun store and the employees all carry in the open. Doubtful any robberies take place there.
    Yeah I guess, thank god there were no robberies in the Wild West huh.
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