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  1. #1
    Registered User jaxqen's Avatar
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    Range of motion in pro bodybuilding history

    Just curiosity
    Does anyone know who started the "partial range of motion" that most pro bbuilders use these days?

    If you watch Arnold training, for example, it's all full ROM, with:
    - great lat stretches when doing pulldowns, cable rows, t-bar rows
    - going deep on squats
    - all the way up front raises for shoulders
    - he had an exercise for the rear delt while lying on one side on the bench, with a great ROM

    Things changed after a while and I was curious to find out who...
    I know Weider changed the way bbuilders trained, after a series of articles with training 1 bodypart per week
    But no idea about the partial ROM
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    Yeah but just because he was doing it doesn't mean that everyone was working on ROM.
    Looks good when flexing Crew
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    I don’t see a use for partial ROM movements.
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Just curiosity
    Does anyone know who started the "partial range of motion" that most pro bbuilders use these days?

    If you watch Arnold training, for example, it's all full ROM, with:
    - great lat stretches when doing pulldowns, cable rows, t-bar rows
    - going deep on squats
    - all the way up front raises for shoulders
    - he had an exercise for the rear delt while lying on one side on the bench, with a great ROM

    Things changed after a while and I was curious to find out who...
    I know Weider changed the way bbuilders trained, after a series of articles with training 1 bodypart per week
    But no idea about the partial ROM
    This goes way back. Think about “21s for example…around well before the 70s. Two Mr Olympias the used partial reps a ton are Ronnie Coleman and of Course Jay Cutler. The idea is to keep the tension on the muscle targeted, it’s not about training a movement , rather the muscle. It’s also to protect joints by keeping the load on the primary muscle targeted for as long as possible. The “continuous tension principle “ is part of the Weider system though he also talked about full range of motion as a point of emphasis.
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    Full range is more for athletic articulation than it is hypertrophy.

    Attention to range is also popular as a benching, deadlifting, or squatting standard: One; because of formal powerlifting rules that gets lots of circulation. And two; because it's more critical to have as a safe foundation of strength development on those exercises that are meant to dwarf isolation exercises by terms of intensity.

    So beyond that, hypertrophy doesn't necessarily require full range antics.
    Looks good when flexing Crew
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Just curiosity
    Does anyone know who started the "partial range of motion" that most pro bbuilders use these days?

    If you watch Arnold training, for example, it's all full ROM, with:
    - great lat stretches when doing pulldowns, cable rows, t-bar rows
    - going deep on squats
    - all the way up front raises for shoulders
    - he had an exercise for the rear delt while lying on one side on the bench, with a great ROM

    Things changed after a while and I was curious to find out who...
    I know Weider changed the way bbuilders trained, after a series of articles with training 1 bodypart per week
    But no idea about the partial ROM

    Arnold benching, wide grip, tension on pecs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqgJGRW2quc


    And Weider had most guys on 3 on, one off programming.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

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  7. #7
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I don’t see a use for partial ROM movements.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMC6tWwA7U8
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I much prefer watching blood and guts with Dorian Yates vs a bunch of half and quarter reps.

    You do you though.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I much prefer watching blood and guts with Dorian Yates vs a bunch of half and quarter reps.

    You do you though.
    Just helping you out. Try and learn a bit. Keep an open mind. Yates is just one of millions of great physiques built a huge variety of ways.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
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    Repeat after me:

    Form is overrated, tension, stress and muscle damage are underrated.


    For powerlifter, olympic weight lifter, form and technique and completing a lift matters far more than hypertrophy from tension, stress and muscle damage.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Repeat after me:

    Form is overrated, tension, stress and muscle damage are underrated.


    For powerlifter, olympic weight lifter, form and technique and completing a lift matters far more than hypertrophy from tension, stress and muscle damage.
    Lol.

    Form is absolutely paramount to anyone.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Lol.

    Form is absolutely paramount to anyone.
    I''l have to disagree here.
    Maybe to you, to me, but not to anyone.
    There are many advanced with good physiques with bad form.
    Actually, most of them have bad form.

    Partial range doesn't equal bad form.
    It's just a different method.
    Personally, I use it very rarely, but I wouldn't consider it bad form.

    Yates type of training isn't for anyone... I would say for most people.
    Most people cannot go to that type of failure Yates did.

    Also, he didn't have a proper form, just like all the other pros.
    He was swinging on curls, not locking on presses and so on.
    Better range of motion than others? yeah, but not good form.
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    In my experience using full ROM and careful form at least on some movements in your program is vital for joint health. Some have very robust joints and they can take more beating (and "bad form") than others, I suspect this is at least somewhat related to bone structure with bigger boned guys being able to take more beating than smaller boned guys.

    My tendon issues almost disappeared overnight when I started to be extremely mindful of my form, taking the joint through its full range of motion. The problem was that the joint was never trained throughout its full ROM and I was "muscling through" some movements. I now treat all direct arm work as "prehab" work but progressively overloading it with very high reps and light weights. Joints are getting stronger and everything is better.

    It's also a kind of self-reinforcing bad habit. You can start doing partials and then when you try increasing ROM you get pain and you conclude "it's bad to go all the way down" or "it's bad to lock out joints". But your joints hurt because they aren't used to getting trained through their full possible ROM, not because it's inherently bad to do it. It takes much more time for connective tissue to fully adapt to things than muscles so it's very easy to end up concluding something like this.

    Your muscles can obviously grow on both "bad" and "good" form. In general I don't like the word "bad form" as a kind of flat out stateent as that will be relative to the lifter. It's only "bad form" if you are risking injury. So "bad form" is not the same for everyone, some will get hurt rounding their back and some will not etc.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 05-23-2022 at 11:09 PM.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Lol.

    Form is absolutely paramount to anyone.

    I would think that eventually you will tire of being wrong. Here’s Bertil Fox, one of the biggest bodybuilders during Arnold’s time, much like Ronnie Coleman, arguably the biggest ever, his firm is ****E at times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPmHiLDm9qE&t=118s
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    I''l have to disagree here.
    Maybe to you, to me, but not to anyone.
    There are many advanced with good physiques with bad form.
    Actually, most of them have bad form.

    Partial range doesn't equal bad form.
    It's just a different method.
    Personally, I use it very rarely, but I wouldn't consider it bad form.

    Yates type of training isn't for anyone... I would say for most people.
    Most people cannot go to that type of failure Yates did.

    Also, he didn't have a proper form, just like all the other pros.
    He was swinging on curls, not locking on presses and so on.
    Better range of motion than others? yeah, but not good form.
    Let’s talk Yates for a second, as it actually only helps make my point. Yates was a master at creating tension, metabolic stress and muscle damage….his form was fine, but often his training partners had hands on the bar as he trained well past failure. So was it his heavy duty, high intensity of effort, muscle damaging techniques or good form that mattered most?

    Yates destroyed it!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gNZPzefdlI

    * lol, yates doing partials on side laterals
    Last edited by coachcalande; 05-24-2022 at 01:22 AM.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I would think that eventually you will tire of being wrong. Here’s Bertil Fox, one of the biggest bodybuilders during Arnold’s time, much like Ronnie Coleman, arguably the biggest ever, his firm is ****E at times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPmHiLDm9qE&t=118s
    Your obsession with roided out bodybuilders is disturbing.

    Anyway, you literally don’t know what “failure” means, have 0 idea what good nutrition is, and give some of the legit worse advice on this board (hill sprints to “strip” the fat off of you, just lol)

    The only person wrong here is you, and you get called on it constantly by multiple people here. Anyway, keep pumping out those partials if it makes you “feel” strong.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    In my experience using full ROM and careful form at least on some movements in your program is vital for joint health. Some have very robust joints and they can take more beating (and "bad form") than others, I suspect this is at least somewhat related to bone structure with bigger boned guys being able to take more beating than smaller boned guys.

    My tendon issues almost disappeared overnight when I started to be extremely mindful of my form, taking the joint through its full range of motion. The problem was that the joint was never trained throughout its full ROM and I was "muscling through" some movements. I now treat all direct arm work as "prehab" work but progressively overloading it with very high reps and light weights. Joints are getting stronger and everything is better.

    It's also a kind of self-reinforcing bad habit. You can start doing partials and then when you try increasing ROM you get pain and you conclude "it's bad to go all the way down" or "it's bad to lock out joints". But your joints hurt because they aren't used to getting trained through their full possible ROM, not because it's inherently bad to do it. It takes much more time for connective tissue to fully adapt to things than muscles so it's very easy to end up concluding something like this.

    Your muscles can obviously grow on both "bad" and "good" form. In general I don't like the word "bad form" as a kind of flat out stateent as that will be relative to the lifter. It's only "bad form" if you are risking injury. So "bad form" is not the same for everyone, some will get hurt rounding their back and some will not etc.
    Deaf ears my man.

    Of course people like partials because doing full ROM is hard, so they gravitate to what is easy.

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard a super high squatter say “quad tension” when they just bend their shakily wrapped knees a few inches.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Let’s talk Yates for a second, as it actually only helps make my point. Yates was a master at creating tension, metabolic stress and muscle damage….his form was fine, but often his training partners had hands on the bar as he trained well past failure. So was it his heavy duty, high intensity of effort, muscle damaging techniques or good form that mattered most?
    Difficult to say since you have many pros that train completely different and get the same results. e.g. Jay Cutler, with lots of volume, explosive and never to failure; who also looks massive, after retirement, unlike Yates or Coleman, who had their problems, from what I know.
    Some will argue that it doesn't matter for them the way they train, because they use PEDs.
    Some will say it doesn't really matter because there are several ways to get there: intensity, volume, something in between, tension, metabolite training - the same thing you can see on naturals.
    No idea what is the best method, but I do believe that most people cannot train like Yates, they lack the mental aspect.
    But most can train with high volume, because work capacity can be increased in time easier than the mental aspect.
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Difficult to say since you have many pros that train completely different and get the same results. e.g. Jay Cutler, with lots of volume, explosive and never to failure; who also looks massive, after retirement, unlike Yates or Coleman, who had their problems, from what I know.
    Some will argue that it doesn't matter for them the way they train, because they use PEDs.
    Some will say it doesn't really matter because there are several ways to get there: intensity, volume, something in between, tension, metabolite training - the same thing you can see on naturals.
    No idea what is the best method, but I do believe that most people cannot train like Yates, they lack the mental aspect.
    But most can train with high volume, because work capacity can be increased in time easier than the mental aspect.

    All points I agree with. The discussion about partials though, Cutler never/rarely locked out his presses. He wanted to feel the movement on the targeted muscle. Bodybuilding definitely involves the mind to muscle focus more than just a mind to completing the rep focus. Additionally, locking out tires the tris and front delts, reducing the time under tension for pecs. Just an example of how advanced bb folks think vs say a 29 year old often injured newbie.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Deaf ears my man.

    Of course people like partials because doing full ROM is hard, so they gravitate to what is easy.

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard a super high squatter say “quad tension” when they just bend their shakily wrapped knees a few inches.
    And this is why, at age 29, you suffer from bursitis and have shoulders like a 90 year old. Try and learn.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    In my experience using full ROM and careful form at least on some movements in your program is vital for joint health. Some have very robust joints and they can take more beating (and "bad form") than others, I suspect this is at least somewhat related to bone structure with bigger boned guys being able to take more beating than smaller boned guys.

    My tendon issues almost disappeared overnight when I started to be extremely mindful of my form, taking the joint through its full range of motion. The problem was that the joint was never trained throughout its full ROM and I was "muscling through" some movements. I now treat all direct arm work as "prehab" work but progressively overloading it with very high reps and light weights. Joints are getting stronger and everything is better.

    It's also a kind of self-reinforcing bad habit. You can start doing partials and then when you try increasing ROM you get pain and you conclude "it's bad to go all the way down" or "it's bad to lock out joints". But your joints hurt because they aren't used to getting trained through their full possible ROM, not because it's inherently bad to do it. It takes much more time for connective tissue to fully adapt to things than muscles so it's very easy to end up concluding something like this.

    Your muscles can obviously grow on both "bad" and "good" form. In general I don't like the word "bad form" as a kind of flat out stateent as that will be relative to the lifter. It's only "bad form" if you are risking injury. So "bad form" is not the same for everyone, some will get hurt rounding their back and some will not etc.
    I agree about the bone structure, I noticed that too.

    If it takes much more time for connective tissue to fully adapt, it means that there is always a problem because the tissue will be one step behind the muscle.

    I don't see much of a problem with a partial ROM exercise if you have other primary exercises with full ROM.
    For example, a a close grip barbell curl with a leaning forward posture. I reduce the ROM intentionally because I like it that way. I don't know if it can be considered a partial ROM though, because I move as much as I can, just my posture changes and the limitations are my legs and my sternum. It's like saying a conventional barbell curl is partial ROM because there is a Gironda curl, where you have more ROM.

    And there is the 21s curl, with 14 partial ROM and 7 full ROM. Again, not bad if you like them and if you have other type of curls with full ROM.


    About bad form, someone told me a while ago my form on cable pushdowns is wrong because I move my elbows up and down.
    But I like it that way, if I keep them still, I get elbow pain. And I got into a discussion, but no "the elbows should always stay completely still"
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    Isometric training = zero ROM and still has a positive effect
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Isometric training = zero ROM and still has a positive effect

    Well, yeah, but I don't think the debate is if they have a hypertrophy effect or not, but if they are healthy for joints or not.



    All these stuff work:
    - bigger traps from rack pulls and deadlifts - isometry
    - farmer walk - isometry for forearms and traps
    - dead hangs
    - paused bench
    - loaded stretches



    Also, there are differences:

    - quarter squat - why people do it? because it is easier, the bottom movement is pretty difficult

    - partial bench press - I mean doing only the first half of the movement, with tension on the pecs. I find this difficult, I tried it once, with slow negatives, and it was more difficult than a full ROM bench. Sure, it was novelty for me, maybe that's why

    - not locking out on a BP or OHP - I don't think it impacts the hypertrophy. I am not talking here about doing a partial because the triceps are weak, I am talking only about locking out.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I don’t see a use for partial ROM movements.
    And yet, a guy that you like, Kassem, doesn't use full ROM in most of his exercises
    For me, these are partials - for example, I go for a good stretch at the bottom for the curls

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Cc_Nh9bFMSR/

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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    And this is why, at age 29, you suffer from bursitis and have shoulders like a 90 year old. Try and learn.
    Lol. Your fat ass would get winded trying to keep up with me in my day to day job. You can’t even do a simple set of chest supported rows without getting out of breath.

    Didn’t you say one of your legs is permanently smaller than the other? Maybe that is why you can’t come close to hitting depth even with heels elevated.

    Anyway, try harder, old man.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 05-24-2022 at 05:32 AM.
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    And yet, a guy that you like, Kassem, doesn't use full ROM in most of his exercises
    For me, these are partials - for example, I go for a good stretch at the bottom for the curls

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Cc_Nh9bFMSR/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CdblF8alELA/

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CaCpa1Dl_Bc/
    I don’t care for his methods of trying to every possible muscle at every possible length at every possible angle.

    That just isn’t an effective use of time.

    And don’t forget he likes to experiment with different movements to see if he can get a desired training effect out of them.

    So I take what he says, take the stuff that works out of it, and apply it. Fluff exercises, I don’t care for.

    Partial and quarter reps I don’t care for.

    I’d rather do more sets of incline French presses over 8 different triceps movements to hit every head from every angle, any day.

    I hope I’ve made my point on excessive movements and incredibly short, almost useless ROMs as plainly as possible.
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    Ever feel like an old married couple arguing over putting the toothpaste cap back onto the tube?
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Ever feel like an old married couple arguing over putting the toothpaste cap back onto the tube?
    I’m tired of arguing with feeble old men yelling at clouds. I bet he verbally berates the waitress when his eggs at iHop are too salty.

    He will be placed on my ignore list, because he simply doesn’t bring anything to the table.
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    I love isometrics...

    Yielding isometrics/ Pauses at the deep end of rom are great for hyp.

    Overcoming isometrics great for strength and neutral adaptations- not up much for putting tissue on directly.

    Form? The less efficient your form is, (think bad leverages and anhles) the less weight you need for the same hyp gains. The opposite for strength, to display your max potential output you need skill, optimised leverages and neurological adaptations for force output

    Im not sure there is a definitiin of 'bad form' for hypertrophy tbh, so long as the muscle is getting tension and stimulus (not damage, not required) its or a case of stimulus vs recovery time. Again, strength is the opposite, gotta be heavy and hard for max performance.

    Personally I like my direct hyp work!
    *To be easier to recover from
    *to have a long rom at long muscle lengths
    *have a deep stretch reflex or a pause
    *To not be swingy/cheaty
    *to be peripherally not centrally fatiguing
    Because strength is my goal, and i want more recovery for that.
    Last edited by MyEgoProblem; 05-24-2022 at 06:15 AM.
    FMH crew - Couch.

    If a post sounds like N=1 and that they have no experience coaching anyone but them selves?

    Do the math. You ain't that person, their experience probably isn't going to be yours. Can still be useful for inspiration - try things, follow athlete response and track trends In your training.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Form? The less efficient your form is, (think bad leverages and anhles) the less weight you need for the same hyp gains. ...

    Im not sure there is a definitiin of 'bad form' for hypertrophy tbh, so long as the muscle is getting tension and stimulus (not damage, not required) its or a case of stimulus vs recovery time.
    Exactly, you can crap-form or cheat the hell out of any movement & progress, although sometimes more weight overall may be needed (and sometimes weight needed could even be less for certain movements/ROM depending on what you're trying to hit).
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