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Thread: Does God Exist?

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    Does God Exist?

    Arguments in favor? Arguments against?
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

    - Richard Feynman
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    Which one of them?
    Because, based on the time and place of your birth, you could have many different Gods.
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    I try to rationalize it as simple as possible.

    Our brain can not even begin to comprehend the distances in the universe, how would you with your big monkey brain think you could possibly know whether there IS or ISN'T an entity capable of creating such feat?
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    Something exists. Today after reading this thread I was singing my favorite Aerosmith tune in my head when I went to start my truck. The same Aerosmith song was playing at the same point of the lyrics in my head. I was going to drive my truck to show some prospective tenants a place to stay for the duration of their job at a refinery here. Turns out they had rented from me 2 years ago. They rented the same house they stayed in 2 years ago.

    Guess what the Aerosmith song was.
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    temporary illusion supramax's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Arguments in favor? Arguments against?
    Depends what you mean by that word 'God'. If it's 'Creator of the Universe", then no. That's a ridiculous notion that implies a falsely imagined duality. It only exists in thought.

    'God' is a state of being that is not being.
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    Originally Posted by iabs View Post
    I try to rationalize it as simple as possible.

    Our brain can not even begin to comprehend the distances in the universe, how would you with your big monkey brain think you could possibly know whether there IS or ISN'T an entity capable of creating such feat?
    I'm not disagreeing with your point about how the name of God is invoked superficially amid what is unfathomably complex and vast, but if our brain is incapable of meaningfully asking these questions, how then is it so aware of its own limitations with respect to them?
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    What if God was one of us? Just a stranger on a bus.......
    This is the comment that makes you feel rustled at night
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    Originally Posted by LtGoose View Post
    What if God was one of us? Just a stranger on a bus.......
    Going to his 9 to 5?

    What if he was just something people created because they needed an "explanation" for a phenomenon they couldn't understand in the past: the rain, an earthquake, a lightning on the sky?
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    Well I just wrote several paragraphs using historical evidence to support my yes but "access was denied" and it all got deleted.

    So long story short, as the father of microbiology, Louis Pasteur, said, "a little science will separate you from God, but more of it takes you to him."
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    Yes, and his name is Kevin Feige...
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    DNA didn’t happen by accident.

    Water, a most precious sustainer of life, falling from the sky ,didn’t happen by accident.

    How we all came to be, when , why, greatest mystery of all time…

    I choose to believe that Jesus lived, suffered, died, rose again, many prophecies fulfilled…and live accordingly.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    How we all came to be, when , why, greatest mystery of all time…

    I choose to believe that Jesus lived, suffered, died, rose again, many prophecies fulfilled…and live accordingly.
    Why is it a mistery, since you believe in Jesus, therefore you are a Christian?
    According to the Bible, it's not much of a mistery.
    God created everything, including humans.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    DNA didn’t happen by accident.

    Water, a most precious sustainer of life, falling from the sky ,didn’t happen by accident.
    What do these comments even mean?

    The definition of 'accident' is basically something that happens by chance, without any apparent cause or reason/intent.

    You don't know what did or did not happen 'by accident' or by intent... you're just a sack of meat and guts like everyone else.
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    I don't believe in any particular God... that's for sure.

    I don't 100% dismiss the idea that there are things like other dimensional beings with sentience that far exceeds our comprehension, but insofar as a form of consciousness governing the inner-workings of everything that exists ANYWHERE?

    No... I don't believe that at all.


    And I sure as hell don't believe that the original humans were made from a rib bone...
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    My opinion is that it's very possible. I don't like that science is sometimes used as a blanket reason to 'disprove' the existence of a God - it's intricacies are often a good argument FOR I think!

    I would love to see my own version of proof as I don't believe 100%, but at the end of the day, if God's existence was proven to everyone then 'faith' or 'belief' wouldn't be so valued. :P
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    Yes he exists
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    Originally Posted by jamiezzz View Post
    My opinion is that it's very possible. I don't like that science is sometimes used as a blanket reason to 'disprove' the existence of a God - it's intricacies are often a good argument FOR I think!

    I would love to see my own version of proof as I don't believe 100%, but at the end of the day, if God's existence was proven to everyone then 'faith' or 'belief' wouldn't be so valued. :P
    "To one who has faith, no proof is needed. To one who lacks faith, no proof is possible."
    - Thomas Aquinas

    In my deepest honesty, I do believe in God, and though I feel and sympathize with the allure of agnosticism, I find that its powerful draw always reduces to something far more intellectually weak than its suggestion threatens.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jamiezzz View Post
    My opinion is that it's very possible. I don't like that science is sometimes used as a blanket reason to 'disprove' the existence of a God - it's intricacies are often a good argument FOR I think!

    I would love to see my own version of proof as I don't believe 100%, but at the end of the day, if God's existence was proven to everyone then 'faith' or 'belief' wouldn't be so valued. :P
    Science doesn't seek to disprove God in general, however it can/has disproven specific claims made in certain religious texts. Some people might try do that, but it's kind of a silly thing to even do because people aren't really leaning on religion/God most of the time for the purpose of predicting outcomes in the physical world (which is mainly the purpose of science).

    I also don't understand what you mean by 'it's intricacies are a good argument FOR'

    That's like saying, "we don't have an answer yet so I'm going to believe something that literally has no proof whatsoever".

    Whether 'faith' is valued or not is irrelevant...
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    "To one who has faith, no proof is needed. To one who lacks faith, no proof is possible."
    - Thomas Aquinas

    In my deepest honesty, I do believe in God, and though I feel and sympathize with the allure of agnosticism, I find that its powerful draw always reduces to something far more intellectually weak than its suggestion threatens.
    I think you're confusing agnosticism with atheism.

    Agnosticism is 'I don't know'

    Atheism is 'I think I know, and the answer is "no"'


    Two totally different things.

    I disagree completely with the idea that "no proof is possible". That's absurd to me.




    Out of curiosity.... you said you believe in 'God'. But, what God? Is it a contrived version of God that humans wrote about thousands of years ago? Why did you choose to believe in one version of God and not the thousands of others you could have chosen?

    When you really look at how vastly different the versions of God/Gods are across the word... the idea of just picking and choosing one like it's a flavor of cereal becomes more and more silly, IMO

    I general believe in a force beyond our comprehension that governs outcomes and physical laws in a manner we cannot understand seems reasonable, but believing in a human-like being that is 'all good' and 'all knowing' is... again... non-sensical.

    That's why I also say I'm agnostic... I'm not smart enough (nor is anyone) to completely disprove some version of 'God'... assuming that just means any kind of influence that governs the outcomes of the universe...
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I think you're confusing agnosticism with atheism.

    Agnosticism is 'I don't know'

    Atheism is 'I think I know, and the answer is "no"'


    Two totally different things.

    I disagree completely with the idea that "no proof is possible". That's absurd to me.




    Out of curiosity.... you said you believe in 'God'. But, what God? Is it a contrived version of God that humans wrote about thousands of years ago? Why did you choose to believe in one version of God and not the thousands of others you could have chosen?

    When you really look at how vastly different the versions of God/Gods are across the word... the idea of just picking and choosing one like it's a flavor of cereal becomes more and more silly, IMO

    I general believe in a force beyond our comprehension that governs outcomes and physical laws in a manner we cannot understand seems reasonable, but believing in a human-like being that is 'all good' and 'all knowing' is... again... non-sensical.

    That's why I also say I'm agnostic... I'm not smart enough (nor is anyone) to completely disprove some version of 'God'... assuming that just means any kind of influence that governs the outcomes of the universe...
    The quote succinctly pertained to the subject matter, but that's the drawback of referencing any individual quotation, that it appears particularly vulnerable to criticism which wouldn't be viable if it was appraised in context.

    Thomas Aquinas was a great thinker, and he wrote a multi-volume (I believe it was 10) systematic theology attempting to reconcile all of the doctrines of Christianity with all of the secular knowledge and thought available to him. Bear in mind, that was the 13th century, so this was significantly reduced in scope from today (and in points of modern science, virtually non-existent, of course), but philosophically, classical logic and most intellectual objections prevalent today were very well understood and so responses to these on that basis are still quite valid and meaningful, as are many of the arguments for the existence of God which are still compelling to many people, scientifically astute or otherwise.

    Your point about which or what kind of God to believe in, assuming that one simply believes in "deity" as a thing dichotomous with the material world, which he/she rejects as being the only reality, is really valid in my opinion (and too absent from apologists' talking points) and I completely agree that reaching the conclusion that "God" exists serves more to open the door to much more difficult and complex questions, than it does towards settling the matter.

    So, this is to my mind a valid retort, deserving of a good answer; but to my surprise, most people just give up there and don't even try to find the answer! They hear Pascal's wager, conclude that the reasoning is good, then just say "Yeah, which?" with some mixture of bitterness and indifference, and then just go along not seriously seeking to figure out what is plausibly true, even though that is open to them and they already agree with the basic premise of the argument.

    But trying to answer that is where it gets complex, and I think the best approach lies in history. The full array of human belief systems, where they can be retrieved (and therefore, meaningfully spoken of) lies there. The apparent distinctiveness, unrelated variety and mutual exclusivity of various religions also recedes as knowledge their origins (and in many cases interrelationship) increases, I find.

    For instance, the God of Abraham is by far the most worshiped (and therefore "represented" among all of the options, if you think on the basis of your cereal analogy) deity in human history, being the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and even in pagan literature of archaic Greece, "God" is spoken of a personified being distinct from Zeus or any of the Olympians, as with "Great Spirit" of the Plains tribes in North America, so it could be argued that this monotheistic consciousness of God is not even strictly confined to the formal Abrahamic religions. Next to that might be the gods of the Hindus, though there are so many that any singular one that it would be dubious to say that, were they to take this title, that would be shared within their own pantheon, not a singular one of them, but other than this, it would only be an educated guess that any other society worshiped a god by greater weight of numbers than the God of Abraham.

    That doesn't make it true, of course, but should be worth consideration towards the objection that "There are so many gods, why this one?" which is an obstacle against belief for many people. Then, I think the next step is to consider it seriously on the basis of its own claims, and seriously ask yourself if the various religions actually have equal or similar merit on this basis, instead of rejecting the whole question just because there is more than one object of faith in the world.

    For instance, many of the eastern religions aren't even strictly theistic in the sense of having personified gods who created the world and deliberately interact with it, and many animistic religious beliefs have very little substance or claims associated with them, whereas claims surrounding the God of Abraham are deeply imbedded within actual history, and make reference to prophecies clearly contemporaneous with real historical events, whether one believes that they prophecies themselves were written afterwards or false (and there is hard textual/historical criticism which makes approaching some of those questions in a scientific manner possible in a way which it is not in say, the Vedic texts, which are completely legendary), so I think this equivocation of faiths is fundamentally misguided.

    I believe in this God and that he is the highest and creator of the universe, but I am also henotheistic and believe that other gods exist though are lesser, while some are simply made up products of imagination. There are a lot of theological questions I do not claim to have the answers for (some of them not orthodox), but I pray to this God, and believe that Jesus was sent from him and died and rose again to reconcile humanity, by defeating death and paying the price of sin.
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  21. #21
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    The quote succinctly pertained to the subject matter, but that's the drawback of referencing any individual quotation, that it appears particularly vulnerable to criticism which wouldn't be viable if it was appraised in context.

    Thomas Aquinas was a great thinker, and he wrote a multi-volume (I believe it was 10) systematic theology attempting to reconcile all of the doctrines of Christianity with all of the secular knowledge and thought available to him. Bear in mind, that was the 13th century, so this was significantly reduced in scope from today (and in points of modern science, virtually non-existent, of course), but philosophically, classical logic and most intellectual objections prevalent today were very well understood and so responses to these on that basis are still quite valid and meaningful, as are many of the arguments for the existence of God which are still compelling to many people, scientifically astute or otherwise.

    Your point about which or what kind of God to believe in, assuming that one simply believes in "deity" as a thing dichotomous with the material world, which he/she rejects as being the only reality, is really valid in my opinion (and too absent from apologists' talking points) and I completely agree that reaching the conclusion that "God" exists serves more to open the door to much more difficult and complex questions, than it does towards settling the matter.

    So, this is to my mind a valid retort, deserving of a good answer; but to my surprise, most people just give up there and don't even try to find the answer! They hear Pascal's wager, conclude that the reasoning is good, then just say "Yeah, which?" with some mixture of bitterness and indifference, and then just go along not seriously seeking to figure out what is plausibly true, even though that is open to them and they already agree with the basic premise of the argument.

    But trying to answer that is where it gets complex, and I think the best approach lies in history. The full array of human belief systems, where they can be retrieved (and therefore, meaningfully spoken of) lies there. The apparent distinctiveness, unrelated variety and mutual exclusivity of various religions also recedes as knowledge their origins (and in many cases interrelationship) increases, I find.

    For instance, the God of Abraham is by far the most worshiped (and therefore "represented" among all of the options, if you think on the basis of your cereal analogy) deity in human history, being the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and even in pagan literature of archaic Greece, "God" is spoken of a personified being distinct from Zeus or any of the Olympians, as with "Great Spirit" of the Plains tribes in North America, so it could be argued that this monotheistic consciousness of God is not even strictly confined to the formal Abrahamic religions. Next to that might be the gods of the Hindus, though there are so many that any singular one that it would be dubious to say that, were they to take this title, that would be shared within their own pantheon, not a singular one of them, but other than this, it would only be an educated guess that any other society worshiped a god by greater weight of numbers than the God of Abraham.

    That doesn't make it true, of course, but should be worth consideration towards the objection that "There are so many gods, why this one?" which is an obstacle against belief for many people. Then, I think the next step is to consider it seriously on the basis of its own claims, and seriously ask yourself if the various religions actually have equal or similar merit on this basis, instead of rejecting the whole question just because there is more than one object of faith in the world.

    For instance, many of the eastern religions aren't even strictly theistic in the sense of having personified gods who created the world and deliberately interact with it, and many animistic religious beliefs have very little substance or claims associated with them, whereas claims surrounding the God of Abraham are deeply imbedded within actual history, and make reference to prophecies clearly contemporaneous with real historical events, whether one believes that they prophecies themselves were written afterwards or false (and there is hard textual/historical criticism which makes approaching some of those questions in a scientific manner possible in a way which it is not in say, the Vedic texts, which are completely legendary), so I think this equivocation of faiths is fundamentally misguided.

    I believe in this God and that he is the highest and creator of the universe, but I am also henotheistic and believe that other gods exist though are lesser, while some are simply made up products of imagination. There are a lot of theological questions I do not claim to have the answers for (some of them not orthodox), but I pray to this God, and believe that Jesus was sent from him and died and rose again to reconcile humanity, by defeating death and paying the price of sin.
    good... lord... Im going to need like an hour to get through commenting on this...


    your sentences are like paragraphs dude... literally.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-29-2022 at 02:00 PM.
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  22. #22
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    The quote succinctly pertained to the subject matter, but that's the drawback of referencing any individual quotation, that it appears particularly vulnerable to criticism which wouldn't be viable if it was appraised in context.

    Thomas Aquinas was a great thinker, and he wrote a multi-volume (I believe it was 10) systematic theology attempting to reconcile all of the doctrines of Christianity with all of the secular knowledge and thought available to him. Bear in mind, that was the 13th century, so this was significantly reduced in scope from today (and in points of modern science, virtually non-existent, of course), but philosophically, classical logic and most intellectual objections prevalent today were very well understood and so responses to these on that basis are still quite valid and meaningful, as are many of the arguments for the existence of God which are still compelling to many people, scientifically astute or otherwise.

    Your point about which or what kind of God to believe in, assuming that one simply believes in "deity" as a thing dichotomous with the material world, which he/she rejects as being the only reality, is really valid in my opinion (and too absent from apologists' talking points) and I completely agree that reaching the conclusion that "God" exists serves more to open the door to much more difficult and complex questions, than it does towards settling the matter.

    So, this is to my mind a valid retort, deserving of a good answer; but to my surprise, most people just give up there and don't even try to find the answer! They hear Pascal's wager, conclude that the reasoning is good, then just say "Yeah, which?" with some mixture of bitterness and indifference, and then just go along not seriously seeking to figure out what is plausibly true, even though that is open to them and they already agree with the basic premise of the argument.

    But trying to answer that is where it gets complex, and I think the best approach lies in history. The full array of human belief systems, where they can be retrieved (and therefore, meaningfully spoken of) lies there. The apparent distinctiveness, unrelated variety and mutual exclusivity of various religions also recedes as knowledge their origins (and in many cases interrelationship) increases, I find.

    For instance, the God of Abraham is by far the most worshiped (and therefore "represented" among all of the options, if you think on the basis of your cereal analogy) deity in human history, being the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and even in pagan literature of archaic Greece, "God" is spoken of a personified being distinct from Zeus or any of the Olympians, as with "Great Spirit" of the Plains tribes in North America, so it could be argued that this monotheistic consciousness of God is not even strictly confined to the formal Abrahamic religions. Next to that might be the gods of the Hindus, though there are so many that any singular one that it would be dubious to say that, were they to take this title, that would be shared within their own pantheon, not a singular one of them, but other than this, it would only be an educated guess that any other society worshiped a god by greater weight of numbers than the God of Abraham.

    That doesn't make it true, of course, but should be worth consideration towards the objection that "There are so many gods, why this one?" which is an obstacle against belief for many people. Then, I think the next step is to consider it seriously on the basis of its own claims, and seriously ask yourself if the various religions actually have equal or similar merit on this basis, instead of rejecting the whole question just because there is more than one object of faith in the world.

    For instance, many of the eastern religions aren't even strictly theistic in the sense of having personified gods who created the world and deliberately interact with it, and many animistic religious beliefs have very little substance or claims associated with them, whereas claims surrounding the God of Abraham are deeply imbedded within actual history, and make reference to prophecies clearly contemporaneous with real historical events, whether one believes that they prophecies themselves were written afterwards or false (and there is hard textual/historical criticism which makes approaching some of those questions in a scientific manner possible in a way which it is not in say, the Vedic texts, which are completely legendary), so I think this equivocation of faiths is fundamentally misguided.

    I believe in this God and that he is the highest and creator of the universe, but I am also henotheistic and believe that other gods exist though are lesser, while some are simply made up products of imagination. There are a lot of theological questions I do not claim to have the answers for (some of them not orthodox), but I pray to this God, and believe that Jesus was sent from him and died and rose again to reconcile humanity, by defeating death and paying the price of sin.
    K, im going to hone in on the point or points written here that are relevant to the original questions I had.

    You've mentioned here that you believe in the God of Abraham and that Jesus is the 'son' of God, etc, etc... and that you pray to that God.

    In that case, are you also believing that God is all-powerful, all-good/benevolent, and all-knowing?

    If so, how do you handle the 'problem of evil'? If you haven't read through the concept, there's a massive write-up here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

    In short, the logical dilemma is that: if God is both all-powerful and all-good (benevolent), then the very existence of evil is a contradiction, essentially. Reason being, a truly all-powerful and all-'good' God would simply not allow evil/suffering to exist... a God of pure love, etc, would not simply allow such massive amounts of pain to endure for all this time... or so it is posited.

    Additionally, what about the age of the universe? The creation of earth, etc? None of that is supported by any evidence and is, in fact, disproven many times over... and yet, that's what the Bible says occurred....
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-29-2022 at 02:21 PM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post

    In short, the logical dilemma is that: if God is both all-powerful and all-good (benevolent), then the very existence of evil is a contradiction, essentially. Reason being, a truly all-powerful and all-'good' God would simply not allow evil/suffering to exist... a God of pure love, etc, would not simply allow such massive amounts of pain to endure for all this time... or so it is posited.
    Because He did not want or need automatons. He gave us free will.

    His existence is pretty easy to me: If you threw a bag or handful of flour into a room, threw a few eggs on the floor, a stick of butter, some sugar, etc. When/if you later opened the door to that room and saw a perfectly baked and iced cake, you'd KNOW that someone else had entered that room and baked the cake - that it did NOT make itself by accident. Wouldn't you? I come to the same conclusion when I see the earth and all of its inhabitants.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    Because He did not want or need automatons. He gave us free will.

    His existence is pretty easy to me: If you threw a bag or handful of flour into a room, threw a few eggs on the floor, a stick of butter, some sugar, etc. When/if you later opened the door to that room and saw a perfectly baked and iced cake, you'd KNOW that someone else had entered that room and baked the cake - that it did NOT make itself by accident. Wouldn't you? I come to the same conclusion when I see the earth and all of its inhabitants.
    What do mean 'want or need'?

    It's God... how are you defining 'need' in the context of a God? God isn't a human who has hedonic pleasures... unless you're suggesting God created humans for... entertainment? If that were true, he'd be allowing evil to exist just to make it interesting? Again... that suggests a non-benevolent God who is literally allowing evil to exist because he's entertained watching some people suffer while others don't.

    I do not understand your comparison about throwing baking ingredients either.

    Humans didn't suddenly pop into existence... our development wasn't like constructing a cake from like 5 ingredients and then putting us into an oven...

    I understand you're not an evolutionary biologist, but just because you you're not in that field, I don't think relying on the most basic possible reasoning is a good alternative. This falls into the same logic of "I don't understand it, so I'm going to assume someone just put it there".
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-29-2022 at 03:52 PM.
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    Something exists. I know none of you guys do short term rental housing for refinery contractors. I've got 23 houses that I do this with. Things magically happen where someone moves out and my wiife cleans up the place and then some other group wants it.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    Something exists. I know none of you guys do short term rental housing for refinery contractors. I've got 23 houses that I do this with. Things magically happen where someone moves out and my wiife cleans up the place and then some other group wants it.
    Lol you got me there
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