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Thread: Does God Exist?

  1. #61
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    Not God of the gaps at all. Everything we observe, study, research when it comes to functional information comes from intelligence. And random mutations never produce functional information. Stephen Meyer breaks it down pretty nicely in regards to DNA, I'm summarizing here but he makes a good comparison to how software code works identically to DNA.

    Richard Dawkins & many, many others have acknowledged that what we have in DNA code is akin to machine or as Leroy Hood puts it..DIGITAL CODE. It is functioning in EXACTLY the SAME WAY. What you learn from software writing & using is highly relevant in understanding whether or not the mutation selection mechanism would actually generate new information. There is a reason that changing software at random ALWAYS DEGRADES the information vastly before you get anything new that is useful. It is because there are so many more ways to go wrong in any system of digital typographic or alphabetic communication. There are vastly more ways of arranging the characters in question will generate gibberish than there are ways of arranging those same characters that will generate something that is functional.
    If you start randomly changing things, your overwhelmingly more likely to find a gibberish sequence than a functional one.


    Then we can look at The Lenski Experiment to show that the only changes that were made to bacteria (E.Coli) after observing them for 300,000 yrs (he combined generations to simulate this) was a net loss of information...there was no "evolution to speak of. I've said it before but much of what is usually attributed to mutations in the nature is simply adaptation, and that adaptation is called EPIGENETICS. It is a system that does not change the DNA, it regulates gene-expression and does not need those millions of years to do it. In fact a good example of epigenetic adaptation are the Galapagos finches. It was supposed until recently that changes in the size and form of their beaks required time periods typical to the Darwinian explanation, observations have however confirmed that the changes occur continuously (as rapidly is in a couple of years) and are reversible.

    This notion that there is a species transition from one to the next is completely false.


    As far as the Universe, there are only 3 possibilities for it's existence..

    1)It always existed (we know this is not true, background radiation echo, red shift, etc. show a beginning
    2)It created itself (that's impossible, nothing cannot create something
    3) Something or someone outside of the Universe created it...this is the only logical explanation
    Again: why does this prove Gods existence?

    You’ve provided theories, not proof.

    Your #3 concludes with “this is the only logical explanation” when in fact, even in your own post, you say it is one of three possibilities (which I also don’t concede as physics would also support the notion of infinite scenarios, not 3).

    And this clearly still sounds like GOTG to me.

    You’re saying “we cannot explain why DNA is like this, therefore God must have made it”.

    Thousands of years ago, humans thought simple diseases were curses from God… imagine how much more we’ll know in other few thousand years. Just because we don’t currently have the answer, doesn’t mean it’s God.
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    Registered User jaxqen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    1) Yes, the sCience is ever changing, next year there will be 30 more genders, and despite the definition of the word..life "doesn't really" begin at conception. FFS..sCIenCe..SMH

    2)God is outside of creation, and the Universe, laws of nature do not apply to the one that created nature...just like if I build an ant maze, I am not constricted to the movements the ants are forced to operate in

    3) what religious God claimed to be the Creator of the Universe? Baal, Moloch..? nope..and where are those God's now. You want proof it's the Biblical God? two words...The Jew. Once you study the history of the Jewish people, you will realize whom the One and true God is.
    1. I wasn't talking about this, and science doesn't claim there are 30 genders.

    2. You, the creator of the ant maize, would still exist somewhere in space and time. Someone created you.
    This "God is outside of everything" is not an argument.
    It can be used for every deity.
    "I believe in my own god named Puideporopopilcanita. He is all powerful, he is beyond time, spaces and everything. Nobody created him because HE IS THE BEGINNING and everything else. Do not question his existence" - see how easy it is?

    3. The Jewish story of creation {and not only} was stolen from the Mesopotamians, come on. Who also stole it from others and so on and so on... gatherers and hunters couldn't explain where they came from or the process of rain/thunders/snowing and they had to invent something.
    "The Sun is our God, it keeps us warm, hail the God Sun."
    "Oh, no, there is a thunder, the God is angry with us, let's kill some sheep to make him happy, God will love that burning flesh smell."
    "The volcano erupted, the tsunami, the storm... let's sacrifice 10 virgins"
    "Someone created the entire world, his name is AgupalapiSugilapi, he has a huge beard and his dick is 10 feet long, believe in him because I told him so"

    It's funny that God has a plan.
    His plan was to see people evolve to the point where one of his Eves would sell her farts on the internet for 5-10k to some incel who has also created by Him.
    Meanwhile, in other parts, people are dying because they lack water, but God didn't think to make rivers everywhere, he wanted some hardship.
    I know, I know... free will, free will.
    You wonder what those people before the Noah's flood were doing so bad since God intervened and ****ed up their free will.

    When a child is born with some illness, it's God plan.
    Brain tumor on a 5 year old one? God's plan.
    His parents are to blame, they were probably sinful and God punished them by giving a tumor to their child.
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  3. #63
    Hunter/Fisherbreh Redfish225's Avatar
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    Why is this thread in Nutrition Misc?
    I love eggs.
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    Yes.

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  5. #65
    Registered User Paul Kreul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Again: why does this prove Gods existence?

    You’ve provided theories, not proof.

    Your #3 concludes with “this is the only logical explanation” when in fact, even in your own post, you say it is one of three possibilities (which I also don’t concede as physics would also support the notion of infinite scenarios, not 3).

    And this clearly still sounds like GOTG to me.

    You’re saying “we cannot explain why DNA is like this, therefore God must have made it”.

    Thousands of years ago, humans thought simple diseases were curses from God… imagine how much more we’ll know in other few thousand years. Just because we don’t currently have the answer, doesn’t mean it’s God.
    I'm saying DNA is code, a language, even Crick and called it such. Messages, languages and coded information never, ever come from anything else besides a mind.  No one has ever produced a single example of a message that did not come from a mind.

    Francis Crick was clear on this from the beginning, stating it is not mere Shannon information,(In the late 40's, Shannon developed a mathematical theory of information)...it is INFORMATION THAT IS FUNCTIONAL, AND THAT IS THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT ALWAYS INDICATES THE PRIOR ACTIVITY OF AN INTELLIGENCE.... ALWAYS.


    Even the way genomes are constructed shows only an intelligence could be the author of their result. Genomes of animals were created by a genius. Here is part of the mouse genome on chromosome number 2, maybe someone can explain the function of this sequence of nucleotide bases...

    gcagtggaca caggaatacg cagtggacac aggaatatgc agtggagaca ggaatacgca gtggacacag gaatacgcag tggacacagg aatacgcagt ggacacagga atacgcagtg gagacaggaa tatgcagtgg agacaggaat acgcagtgga cacaggaata cgcagtggac acaggaatac gcagtggaga ctggaatatg cagtggagac aggaacacgc agtggagaca ggaatatgca gtggagacag gaatacgcag tggagacagg aatacgcagt ggacacagga atacgcagtg gagacaggaa tacgcagtgg agacaggaac acgcagtgga gacaggaaca cgcagtggag acaggaatac gctgtggaga caggaataca ctgggtcggt ttggacgttg gtgctgggga ttgaagcaag ccttgaacgc gaccagacag tgctgtaact gaactgcttc ttccctgggg cagtgtttct ttcagttccg aggttctgct cacctggttt ctaatttatg cagataaatc tctgggtcaa gcataagtgt gcctacaact ttagcccttg gaagggaaag gcaggggatt gggagtttaa ccccaacctg cactgcgcag tgagactcta tctcaaaata ataatattgc agttggtaat cgggtctgtg aatccaaaat agtcctgaaa tatcatgttt tatcagtctc ttttataaaa acctaacaat attaccaaaa agccattgga ctgtctggag tactggagtt gggagcatta gaaaatgagg aaacagacag tggctctctg ctgctgcctg tctgaaggtg tagaaggtcc tccattggta gaggtttcaa gcagaaggca gcagtattgc cattcatctc tctgtctttc tccttcacag gagtatttct tgcaagcaga gttgacaagt aacgttttga aaacaggagt ggtccactgc tgtgtggggc agtgcaacaa caccatccct gtggacacca tccttaccat gaagaaactg cctatcactt atgtacgttc actgtgggag ttaagtcact caagcacctt ttcttgcttg tgcgttatgt gtctgtctag gttctggatg agggaggtaa tggagtcgtt tctataatgc ttccttcccc aagagttttc tatggaagca tggcagatgt gagttctgcc tttttgtcag agatggaacc aatgatctaa agtgagttgg gttggatgac tgctatttcc tgggtgtgct aaagacttcc agcctgggag gttgagctgt gctgagagac ctcagagggg agctgtttgc ctggaggacc tggttcaatc tttctttgtt ctttatctct ttcttattct ctggtgctag aaactgagca tgctagttgt gtactccagc gctcagcagt ccctagttct ttatctcctg atgggatgat tgtgttagtc ctctaaagga ctgggatgga gttgagtcta gatcagtgat cagtgggtgt gcacagccac aatgaattag catgttagca gatgtgacag taattcggcg ctttttggtg aaaaattttt atccttagat tgtcccttac tctttttctt atccatcctt gtagagcaac aggaaggaaa acaagggtgg ctacctctgc cactcatgtg cagagcagcg catcgggcct ttggcattcc tgactgcctc


    This is only a small part of the 2,700,000,000 nucleotide bases that can create a mouse. If anyone believes that this is a result of random chance then they are mentally retarded.
    Last edited by Paul Kreul; 09-01-2022 at 01:02 PM.
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    Registered User Guyfawkes1010's Avatar
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    Again why ask the question if you already believe God doesn't exist?
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  7. #67
    banned NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    Yes. He exists.

    Study Thermodynamics and you will come to the conclusion that something does not come out of nothing without some external thing making that something out of nothing.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
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  8. #68
    Registered User Paul Kreul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    1. I wasn't talking about this, and science doesn't claim there are 30 genders.

    2. You, the creator of the ant maize, would still exist somewhere in space and time. Someone created you.
    This "God is outside of everything" is not an argument.
    It can be used for every deity.
    "I believe in my own god named Puideporopopilcanita. He is all powerful, he is beyond time, spaces and everything. Nobody created him because HE IS THE BEGINNING and everything else. Do not question his existence" - see how easy it is?

    3. The Jewish story of creation {and not only} was stolen from the Mesopotamians, come on. Who also stole it from others and so on and so on... gatherers and hunters couldn't explain where they came from or the process of rain/thunders/snowing and they had to invent something.
    "The Sun is our God, it keeps us warm, hail the God Sun."
    "Oh, no, there is a thunder, the God is angry with us, let's kill some sheep to make him happy, God will love that burning flesh smell."
    "The volcano erupted, the tsunami, the storm... let's sacrifice 10 virgins"
    "Someone created the entire world, his name is AgupalapiSugilapi, he has a huge beard and his dick is 10 feet long, believe in him because I told him so"

    It's funny that God has a plan.
    His plan was to see people evolve to the point where one of his Eves would sell her farts on the internet for 5-10k to some incel who has also created by Him.
    Meanwhile, in other parts, people are dying because they lack water, but God didn't think to make rivers everywhere, he wanted some hardship.
    I know, I know... free will, free will.
    You wonder what those people before the Noah's flood were doing so bad since God intervened and ****ed up their free will.

    When a child is born with some illness, it's God plan.
    Brain tumor on a 5 year old one? God's plan.
    His parents are to blame, they were probably sinful and God punished them by giving a tumor to their child.
    1)Yes, science does claim that there are multiple genders. It also claims a mask stops viral transmission, the vaccine is "safe and effective", that a fetus is not a person/human being, changes in species is the result of evolution, that there are transitional species, I can go on and on. Science has become a joke, because when funding and pay structure is stacked against true academia science in favor of paradigm consensus, it creates an unfair, inaccurate and corrupt narrative. And that's the truth.

    2)I've never heard of your god, but mine has been around a long time, and people have been trying to "disprove" Him from the beginning, it has not worked out so well.

    3)Of course there are many accounts of the Biblical story, if you want people to be swayed from the truth, you have to create a fraud.
    The Jews are the only people in the history of the world that once ostracized from their home land have come back to own their land again. This was Prophesied in the Bible..and Prophecy is what makes The Bible set apart from any other religious text. Oh, I'm sorry, Mohammad made one prophecy. He said before he dies, he will return to Mecca. That's like me saying, before I die, I'll return to Chicago.

    The Jews are surrounded by enemies on all corners, all around them the Arabs, (they are not Palestinians) have been trying to take them down from the conception of Israel..a country half the size of New Jersey, yet their enemies have failed over and over again. They are the most persecuted people in the history of the world, Pharaohs, Babylonians, Rome, Hitler, all have enslaved and tried to kill off the Jews, yet they have survived over and over again and flourish whoever they go...and this was all Prophesied by God. He declared that they will be hated wherever they go in all corners of the world for their disobedience, but because of His covenant, He will bless them still.
    There is no people like that of The Jew..and that is the direct result of God's intervention. Read up on the 6th day war, study the Jews, all along you can see God's hand intervening in their life..even now, to this day, everything is happening according to God's plan.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    I'm saying DNA is code, a language, even Crick and called it such. Messages, languages and coded information never, ever come from anything else besides a mind.  No one has ever produced a single example of a message that did not come from a mind.

    Francis Crick was clear on this from the beginning, stating it is not mere Shannon information,(In the late 40's, Shannon developed a mathematical theory of information)...it is INFORMATION THAT IS FUNCTIONAL, AND THAT IS THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT ALWAYS INDICATES THE PRIOR ACTIVITY OF AN INTELLIGENCE.... ALWAYS.


    Even the way genomes are constructed shows only an intelligence could be the author of their result. Genomes of animals were created by a genius. Here is part of the mouse genome on chromosome number 2, maybe someone can explain the function of this sequence of nucleotide bases...

    gcagtggaca caggaatacg cagtggacac aggaatatgc agtggagaca ggaatacgca gtggacacag gaatacgcag tggacacagg aatacgcagt ggacacagga atacgcagtg gagacaggaa tatgcagtgg agacaggaat acgcagtgga cacaggaata cgcagtggac acaggaatac gcagtggaga ctggaatatg cagtggagac aggaacacgc agtggagaca ggaatatgca gtggagacag gaatacgcag tggagacagg aatacgcagt ggacacagga atacgcagtg gagacaggaa tacgcagtgg agacaggaac acgcagtgga gacaggaaca cgcagtggag acaggaatac gctgtggaga caggaataca ctgggtcggt ttggacgttg gtgctgggga ttgaagcaag ccttgaacgc gaccagacag tgctgtaact gaactgcttc ttccctgggg cagtgtttct ttcagttccg aggttctgct cacctggttt ctaatttatg cagataaatc tctgggtcaa gcataagtgt gcctacaact ttagcccttg gaagggaaag gcaggggatt gggagtttaa ccccaacctg cactgcgcag tgagactcta tctcaaaata ataatattgc agttggtaat cgggtctgtg aatccaaaat agtcctgaaa tatcatgttt tatcagtctc ttttataaaa acctaacaat attaccaaaa agccattgga ctgtctggag tactggagtt gggagcatta gaaaatgagg aaacagacag tggctctctg ctgctgcctg tctgaaggtg tagaaggtcc tccattggta gaggtttcaa gcagaaggca gcagtattgc cattcatctc tctgtctttc tccttcacag gagtatttct tgcaagcaga gttgacaagt aacgttttga aaacaggagt ggtccactgc tgtgtggggc agtgcaacaa caccatccct gtggacacca tccttaccat gaagaaactg cctatcactt atgtacgttc actgtgggag ttaagtcact caagcacctt ttcttgcttg tgcgttatgt gtctgtctag gttctggatg agggaggtaa tggagtcgtt tctataatgc ttccttcccc aagagttttc tatggaagca tggcagatgt gagttctgcc tttttgtcag agatggaacc aatgatctaa agtgagttgg gttggatgac tgctatttcc tgggtgtgct aaagacttcc agcctgggag gttgagctgt gctgagagac ctcagagggg agctgtttgc ctggaggacc tggttcaatc tttctttgtt ctttatctct ttcttattct ctggtgctag aaactgagca tgctagttgt gtactccagc gctcagcagt ccctagttct ttatctcctg atgggatgat tgtgttagtc ctctaaagga ctgggatgga gttgagtcta gatcagtgat cagtgggtgt gcacagccac aatgaattag catgttagca gatgtgacag taattcggcg ctttttggtg aaaaattttt atccttagat tgtcccttac tctttttctt atccatcctt gtagagcaac aggaaggaaa acaagggtgg ctacctctgc cactcatgtg cagagcagcg catcgggcct ttggcattcc tgactgcctc


    This is only a small part of the 2,700,000,000 nucleotide bases that can create a mouse. If anyone believes that this is a result of random chance then they are mentally retarded.
    Yet again....

    This does mean God exists.... it is not proof of that.

    If you're going to use these examples as evidence of "God", you're going to have to define the word "God" so loosely that it no longer fits under the generally accepted definitions, and certainly not under any of the common religions.

    If we're going to say "you cannot make something from nothing"... OK... then who made God? If God can manipulate physical space, then there would need to be a linkage between whatever non-physical realm they operate in... in order to exert change on matter, it must contain matter of some kind... So... does God contain matter?

    Is God then a physical entity? If so, then who made God? The same arguments then Apply to the very thing people are trying to use as a justification to believe in it.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    Yes. He exists.

    Study Thermodynamics and you will come to the conclusion that something does not come out of nothing without some external thing making that something out of nothing.
    "He"?

    God has a penis? Identifies as a man/male?

    I think you mean "it". But as with everything else ITT: you're going to have to define what you mean "God", and explain how it fits into all the known systems we have...
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yet again....

    This does mean God exists.... it is not proof of that.

    If you're going to use these examples as evidence of "God", you're going to have to define the word "God" so loosely that it no longer fits under the generally accepted definitions, and certainly not under any of the common religions.

    If we're going to say "you cannot make something from nothing"... OK... then who made God? If God can manipulate physical space, then there would need to be a linkage between whatever non-physical realm they operate in... in order to exert change on matter, it must contain matter of some kind... So... does God contain matter?

    Is God then a physical entity? If so, then who made God? The same arguments then Apply to the very thing people are trying to use as a justification to believe in it.
    God created all. He is outside of creation..nothing cannot come from something, that is the second law of thermodynamics (energy cannot be created or destroyed)...within a closed system, the Universe is a closed system. God is outside the Universe/Creation, so trying to apply our natural laws upon Him does not work...

    If you want to get into..why Bible God, that's a different subject, we first have to acknowledge that yes, there is a Creator. Just like our Forefathers acknowledged..
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    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    God created all. He is outside of creation..nothing cannot come from something, that is the second law of thermodynamics (energy cannot be created or destroyed)...within a closed system, the Universe is a closed system. God is outside the Universe/Creation, so trying to apply our natural laws upon Him does not work...

    If you want to get into..why Bible God, that's a different subject, we first have to acknowledge that yes, there is a Creator. Just like our Forefathers acknowledged..
    So, now you are appealing to the intelligence of "our Forefathers" as though their insights were more supported by reason and logic than present day? I hope I don't need to explain how little sense that makes.

    And yet again, you're still not providing evidence... you're making statements: "He is outside of creation". That means nothing...

    The second law of thermodynamics is completely unrelated and incomparable even in any form I could explain, by it even negates your own point: "God is outside creation", and yet you use a law based on human's observations to reason that a God exists?

    You're contradicting yourself left and right....


    All you've said so far is that you don't know how existence came to be, therefore it's "God". And when you try to define "God", your argument can be broken down into simply "I don't know what God is... but it's God".

    I'm fine with you saying you personally believe/intuit that there must been an always-present influence on reality as we know it that you choose to call "God", but your attempts to align scientific concepts with God as a form of proof falters each time.

    You cannot simultaneously claim God is beyond any physical constraint, but then use human models - which have material constraints - to reason his existence.


    PS - why are you capitalizing "Creator"?
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    Jaxqen and Adam, I'm going to take a few hours and start working on a reply. Jax, you're asking me 11 separate and challenging questions in one fell swoop. I think they're all fair, but they're not something which can be easily or briefly answered. I'll do my best to answer each as best as I know how, but I may not get done today. I've procrastinated this for a while so just checking in to say that I'm working on a reply right now.
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    I'm starting from the top and will either edit this post or continue with another for the rest. Will try to work through everything so far before replying again.

    The Problem of Evil & The Euthyphro Dilemma

    "If God is all good and all powerful, why is there so much evil and suffering in the world?"

    This is a troubling matter, and I think that anyone who denies this either doesn't yet have a mature experience within a human life where these things are undeniably encountered, or is dishonestly playing word games and practicing some kind of sophistry in order to "win" an argument rather than to arrive at a satisfying answer. Neither of those approaches are correct, to my mind. While the older I get and the more I learn, the more I appreciate a subtle sense that high things exist, things far beyond my ability to grasp properly, we're still left with a logical problem well within our capacity for reason. To avoid encountering that to the best of our ability seems to me to be intellectually lazy (and even cowardly), such that even the faithful who truly believe that God is just can appreciate the difficulty of the matter without simply ignoring the question.

    While endeavoring to appreciate the extent to which we either cannot, or struggle to fathom the essence of certain things which we intuively recognize but which modern psychology endeavors to reduce to mere behavioral functions of a social group (rather than existing on its own terms while yet prompting social behavior), such as the literal and actual existence of metaphysical things such as glory, honor, beauty, love, joy, etc., is something which alleviates this matter to me somewhat, it doesn't resolve the pure logical dilemma we're still left with: God, being all-powerful, literally could stop all of the evil and suffering in this world, and bring about a benevolent and happy existence for all creatures, yet, it appears that he doesn't. Why? While when I was younger, I had less of a readiness to accept that the purposes of an all-knowing, ultimately wise God, are apprised of all things, and that, knowing that even in my own limited mind, one beam of light cast upon a difficult question from a really intensive and careful study of something often alleviates much doubt, such a mind, even hypothetically knowing all of these things and as such, being aware of every trace interrelationship between things, every hidden purpose of every human intention, sees a confluence of patterns that an eager scholar with the gift of immortality might never see the half of!

    So, it is not the logical soundness of the Euthyphro Dilemma which I would dispute, but rather our ability to have such confidence in an allegation of what "evil" itself even is. The propositions follow logically and soundly, and we, having minds entirely capable of reason, see this plainly. Clear sight of the nature and identity of the terms that this reason marshalls are another matter, and something which we must therefore label verbally from a hazy and incomplete grasp of their essence.
    Ah, but suffering! How is that something vague and mysterious? I would say that it's not, of course. But here I would draw a clear distinction between evil (to my mind, a willful and ancient thing, a product of mind and defiant), and suffering itself (raw, painful and passive). The points sketched above give me consolation regarding the former, but as to suffering itself, what has comforted my mind the most is that, on the same basis that one entertains the hypothetical existence of eternity, God, justice and morality, necessarily on the basis of judging such according to the conventional views on these, and is then able to reject them on the basis of a disappointing assumed conclusion, they fail to consider that on these same terms, everything which transpires occurs within the context of an eternal fate. Who is to say on these same terms that a child dying of a terminal illness, a community which collectively dies of starvation, the people led brief and destitute lives which ended early, didn't trade a temporary suffering for an eternal bliss?

    If this life is temporary, and after which is eternity, how do we weigh passing suffering against even the possibility of everlasting peace which follows? Like Hamlet says of death: "The undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveller returns," there's no way to empirically confirm that one's real existence ends there, and what if what we would rightly see as a granular blink in the face of eternity and then wave in the face of God as a reason to disqualify his justice, ultimately bears no weight against what perhaps follows?
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I'm starting from the top and will either edit this post or continue with another for the rest. Will try to work through everything so far before replying again.

    The Problem of Evil & The Euthyphro Dilemma

    "If God is all good and all powerful, why is there so much evil and suffering in the world?"

    This is a troubling matter, and I think that anyone who denies this either doesn't yet have a mature experience within a human life where these things are undeniably encountered, or is dishonestly playing word games and practicing some kind of sophistry in order to "win" an argument rather than to arrive at a satisfying answer. Neither of those approaches are correct, to my mind. While the older I get and the more I learn, the more I appreciate a subtle sense that high things exist, things far beyond my ability to grasp properly, we're still left with a logical problem well within our capacity for reason. To avoid encountering that to the best of our ability seems to me to be intellectually lazy (and even cowardly), such that even the faithful who truly believe that God is just can appreciate the difficulty of the matter without simply ignoring the question.

    While endeavoring to appreciate the extent to which we either cannot, or struggle to fathom the essence of certain things which we intuively recognize but which modern psychology endeavors to reduce to mere behavioral functions of a social group (rather than existing on its own terms while yet prompting social behavior), such as the literal and actual existence of metaphysical things such as glory, honor, beauty, love, joy, etc., is something which alleviates this matter to me somewhat, it doesn't resolve the pure logical dilemma we're still left with: God, being all-powerful, literally could stop all of the evil and suffering in this world, and bring about a benevolent and happy existence for all creatures, yet, it appears that he doesn't. Why? While when I was younger, I had less of a readiness to accept that the purposes of an all-knowing, ultimately wise God, are apprised of all things, and that, knowing that even in my own limited mind, one beam of light cast upon a difficult question from a really intensive and careful study of something often alleviates much doubt, such a mind, even hypothetically knowing all of these things and as such, being aware of every trace interrelationship between things, every hidden purpose of every human intention, sees a confluence of patterns that an eager scholar with the gift of immortality might never see the half of!

    So, it is not the logical soundness of the Euthyphro Dilemma which I would dispute, but rather our ability to have such confidence in an allegation of what "evil" itself even is. The propositions follow logically and soundly, and we, having minds entirely capable of reason, see this plainly. Clear sight of the nature and identity of the terms that this reason marshalls are another matter, and something which we must therefore label verbally from a hazy and incomplete grasp of their essence.
    Ah, but suffering! How is that something vague and mysterious? I would say that it's not, of course. But here I would draw a clear distinction between evil (to my mind, a willful and ancient thing, a product of mind and defiant), and suffering itself (raw, painful and passive). The points sketched above give me consolation regarding the former, but as to suffering itself, what has comforted my mind the most is that, on the same basis that one entertains the hypothetical existence of eternity, God, justice and morality, necessarily on the basis of judging such according to the conventional views on these, and is then able to reject them on the basis of a disappointing assumed conclusion, they fail to consider that on these same terms, everything which transpires occurs within the context of an eternal fate. Who is to say on these same terms that a child dying of a terminal illness, a community which collectively dies of starvation, the people led brief and destitute lives which ended early, didn't trade a temporary suffering for an eternal bliss?

    If this life is temporary, and after which is eternity, how do we weigh passing suffering against even the possibility of everlasting peace which follows? Like Hamlet says of death: "The undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveller returns," there's no way to empirically confirm that one's real existence ends there, and what if what we would rightly see as a granular blink in the face of eternity and then wave in the face of God as a reason to disqualify his justice, ultimately bears no weight against what perhaps follows?

    Eli I have to be honest... I don't follow your writing style at all... I'm not sure how to respond because there's just too many long sentences without clear statements of point. I don't really know what view you're holding.
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    Can a building exist without a builder?
    No
    Can a painting exist without a painter?
    No
    Can creation exist without a creator?
    No
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    Can a building exist without a builder?
    No
    Can a painting exist without a painter?
    No
    Can creation exist without a creator?
    No
    Not valid evidence im afraid.

    God is, by definition, not under the same guidelines of earthly constraints, so Buildings and Paintings are not relevant.

    "A creation" and "creator" are vague concepts which do not serve to prove the point or serve as talking points on subject. Paintings and Buildings, for example, are the result of decisions made by humans... but plenty of things happen on earth with no conscious decision... like the formation of a mountain range, a drop of water falling from a leaf... nobody 'made' that happen, it just happened without conscious thought.

    You're going to need to look beyond one-line catch phrases if you want an intelligent discussion.
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    What creation can exist without a creator?
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    What creation can exist without a creator?
    You're being vague, but I already gave you an example. A 'creation' can literally be anything...

    Again, I could argue any "thing", like a rock in the ocean, is a 'creation', and yet no conscious being 'created' it. So in that case, if you otherwise use things like 'buildings' as examples of creations... but I would say a random rock at the bottom of the ocean wasn't 'created', because no conscious being made it... it happened via natural processes on earth.

    How about oxygen? Do you think a conscious human or animal 'created' oxygen? If not, then that is also something which has no 'creator' if you're again using things like buildings and paintings to show how things are 'created' because humans literally made them.

    In short, your definition is inherently circular because you're just saying "stuff that exists can't exist without something making it exist". Well, yeah, it's part of that definition... it's just word games.
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    Yes, he lives in space.
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    Originally Posted by Redfish225 View Post
    Yes, he lives in space.
    Uranus?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Eli I have to be honest... I don't follow your writing style at all... I'm not sure how to respond because there's just too many long sentences
    I mentioned that before. It's called the FOG index. My papers in graduate school were somewhat graded on the FOG index. It's basically the average syllables in each sentence and the average number of words in each sentence.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Eli I have to be honest... I don't follow your writing style at all... I'm not sure how to respond because there's just too many long sentences without clear statements of point. I don't really know what view you're holding.
    Okay, that's fair. Please know that I'm not trying to be confusing or intentionally verbose. That is literally how the thoughts flow from my mind. This being a really existential question, I guess the angle that the answer takes ends up being that way a lot of the time, in trying to find the exact meaning that I intend. You both wanted me to expound on my own thoughts about this, so I went for how I would write this as if I was thinking out loud while driving or something.

    Basically, people who believe in God and are dismissive of people with this objection I think are being dishonest with themselves or are simply in some kind of bubble where they can't appreciate it; and I wanted to make that clear off the bat that I understand that this remains a heavy and troubling question, even if a good answer exists. I am compelled to believe in a metaphysical reality of things which are not mere brain chemistry, even if the latter definitely and measurably responds to them; and that, people who disbelieve in God already hypothesize one thing in this category (evil), and so are presumably willing to agree on this first matter, when making a judgment about God being unjust. That such things exist is an existential argument which draws a lot on intuition. It's very hard to "prove," and so the actual question posed by the Euthyphro Dilemma isn't the issue, but I think it's that our ability to clearly see the real nature of such things which is in question. Just in my own short life so far, that a lot of things which at first seem really wrong or problematic make complete since with maturity or perspective from learning more, and the same thing is in effect with the context which an all-knowing God has. If you could spend 1,000 years studying something, I'm sure you would find out that many of your original assumptions about it or perspectives of how you claimed to know it would change quite a bit at the end of it. Surely an eternal and all-knowing God knows still much more. So, I'm challenging this confidence people claim to have in the nature of "evil." What, purely and exactly, is it? Is good required for it to exist? Volition? If so, might that have bearing on its presence in our world?

    And then I would separate that from suffering itself, which is plain to everyone. My biggest point here is that, if we have eternal souls and this life is temporary, then the fact that what we experience now as a test for what follows being temporary is a huge deal. The most horrible fates you can think of for people, if they perhaps have peace in eternity, become much less troubling in the context of this question, and there's very little we can claim to know about what might follow, and yet it's those same people whose horrible fates are used as counterexamples in the first place to the claim that God is good or just.

    So, in a nutshell, I concede that this is a heavy and difficult question, but also know that there are heavy and difficult things which we can put labels on and reason with soundly in syllogisms, but what we can claim to really know and understand of the terms behind those labels, their real essences and natures, is far from confident or certain. Evil is one of these things. I think that a distinction between evil and suffering should be made. It exists in an evil world alongside it, but I do not think that they are one and the same. So when we point to the prevalence of people's suffering as a claim that God is not good, we assume that we can really know the true nature of evil, and are also completely ignorant of what very well may follow their death, so, again, while I agree that this is not an easy question, I simply don't think that we are right to be so confident with our simple conclusions about it.

    Does that make more sense? I'll try to clarify anything I said which was too windy or unconcise. I'll also try to get to the rest of this more succinctly.
    Last edited by EliKoehn; 09-13-2022 at 07:51 PM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    So, now you are appealing to the intelligence of "our Forefathers" as though their insights were more supported by reason and logic than present day? I hope I don't need to explain how little sense that makes.

    And yet again, you're still not providing evidence... you're making statements: "He is outside of creation". That means nothing...

    The second law of thermodynamics is completely unrelated and incomparable even in any form I could explain, by it even negates your own point: "God is outside creation", and yet you use a law based on human's observations to reason that a God exists?

    You're contradicting yourself left and right....


    All you've said so far is that you don't know how existence came to be, therefore it's "God". And when you try to define "God", your argument can be broken down into simply "I don't know what God is... but it's God".

    I'm fine with you saying you personally believe/intuit that there must been an always-present influence on reality as we know it that you choose to call "God", but your attempts to align scientific concepts with God as a form of proof falters each time.

    You cannot simultaneously claim God is beyond any physical constraint, but then use human models - which have material constraints - to reason his existence.


    PS - why are you capitalizing "Creator"?
    That's exactly the point. If everything that we as humans, study, observe and research when it comes to the Origin of Information has an intelligence/Creator behind it, it is only reasonable and plausible that someone made the universe, and life in it..whom is outside of creation. Nothing cannot come from something, The Big Bang Theory simply does not hold up. Random mutations never produce functional information.
    Last edited by Paul Kreul; 09-13-2022 at 08:09 PM.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Okay, that's fair. Please know that I'm not trying to be confusing or intentionally verbose. That is literally how the thoughts flow from my mind. This being a really existential question, I guess the angle that the answer takes ends up being that way a lot of the time, in trying to find the exact meaning that I intend. You both wanted me to expound on my own thoughts about this, so I went for how I would write this as if I was thinking out loud while driving or something.

    Basically, people who believe in God and are dismissive of people with this objection I think are being dishonest with themselves or are simply in some kind of bubble where they can't appreciate it; and I wanted to make that clear off the bat that I understand that this remains a heavy and troubling question, even if a good answer exists. I am compelled to believe in a metaphysical reality of things which are not mere brain chemistry, even if the latter definitely and measurably responds to them; and that, people who disbelieve in God already hypothesize one thing in this category (evil), and so are presumably willing to agree on this first matter, when making a judgment about God being unjust. That such things exist is an existential argument which draws a lot on intuition. It's very hard to "prove," and so the actual question posed by the Euthyphro Dilemma isn't the issue, but I think it's that our ability to clearly see the real nature of such things which is in question. Just in my own short life so far, that a lot of things which at first seem really wrong or problematic make complete since with maturity or perspective from learning more, and the same thing is in effect with the context which an all-knowing God has. If you could spend 1,000 years studying something, I'm sure you would find out that many of your original assumptions about it or perspectives of how you claimed to know it would change quite a bit at the end of it. Surely an eternal and all-knowing God knows still much more. So, I'm challenging this confidence people claim to have in the nature of "evil." What, purely and exactly, is it? Is good required for it to exist? Volition? If so, might that have bearing on its presence in our world?

    And then I would separate that from suffering itself, which is plain to everyone. My biggest point here is that, if we have eternal souls and this life is temporary, then the fact that what we experience now as a test for what follows being temporary is a huge deal. The most horrible fates you can think of for people, if they perhaps have peace in eternity, become much less troubling in the context of this question, and there's very little we can claim to know about what might follow, and yet it's those same people whose horrible fates are used as counterexamples in the first place to the claim that God is good or just.

    So, in a nutshell, I concede that this is a heavy and difficult question, but also know that there are heavy and difficult things which we can put labels on and reason with soundly in syllogisms, but what we can claim to really know and understand of the terms behind those labels, their real essences and natures, is far from confident or certain. Evil is one of these things. I think that a distinction between evil and suffering should be made. It exists in an evil world alongside it, but I do not think that they are one and the same. So when we point to the prevalence of people's suffering as a claim that God is not good, we assume that we can really know the true nature of evil, and are also completely ignorant of what very well may follow their death, so, again, while I agree that this is not an easy question, I simply don't think that we are right to be so confident with our simple conclusions about it.

    Does that make more sense? I'll try to clarify anything I said which was too windy or unconcise. I'll also try to get to the rest of this more succinctly.
    Mmmk, I think I slightly grasp what you’re saying, but I have two issues/responses to that.

    1. Especially in the biblical sense, what constitutes evil and, by association, suffering is pretty clearly defined. Unjust murder and rape, for example, or genocide… obviously evil acts. So even if unique vague situations exist which may not clearly be evil or neutral, some acts are absolutely evil if we’re using a traditional, biblical God theory or any of the common representations in religions. I’m not aware of any common religion (and certainly not one id follow) which would disagree with that.

    2. Quite simply, an ambiguous definition of suffering or evil does not in any way suggest God exists….


    I suspect this argument isn’t even something you intuitively would believe in practice. If someone stabs you, I don’t think you’d accept someone’s excuse if they said, “well sure I stabbed you but what is pain anyway? Maybe it’s not so bad?” We work with the input/output systems we have on hand… this is how we judge right and wrong: based on our experiences.

    If not, then I could easily justify literally any action because I could argue that suffering or pain or evil don’t exist at all… that doesn’t hold up.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 09-13-2022 at 08:31 PM.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Okay, that's fair. Please know that I'm not trying to be confusing or intentionally verbose. That is literally how the thoughts flow from my mind.

    Does that make more sense? I'll try to clarify anything I said which was too windy or unconcise. I'll also try to get to the rest of this more succinctly.
    No offense, but if this is how thoughts flow from your minds, you shouldn't have problems write this in 5 minutes.
    And you mentioned before that you need time to work on a reply.
    I assume your text was carefully planned and you give importance to the meaning of each word, which takes time - not that I find this wrong, au contraire.
    But yes, you can too verbose for me.

    For me, it doesn't make sense.
    We know what evil is.
    The Bible tell us what evil is.
    Sure, The Bible has some laws that could be considered plain evil today {and should} but nevertheless, it gives us an understanding of Evil.

    When people say "why doesn't God stop the suffering" is something generalist.
    Personally, I am not thinking about a situation like "Hey, why didn't God stop the guy who stole my jacket yesterday, it is so simple for him to say 'Bad thief, bad thief, go back to your home and give his jacket back'"
    That would be absurd.

    Or other uglier situations that imply another deliberate action from another human being, like rape, torture, murder.

    But we have suffering that doesn't imply a deliberate action from another human, like children being born {or develop in early years} with different conditions, from leukemia, brain tumors, having no limbs etcetera

    And if you ask his lieutenans aka priests the answers are:

    a) "God is testing our faith" - seriously, someone that powerful is so vain and shallow that he wants to see if humans, who are like ants for him, still believe in Him, even if their child died from a brain tumor?
    If so, God seems to have the mentality of a 7 year old me who was ripping the flies' wings to see what happens with them.

    b) "God works in misterious ways" - this is just vague and wrong. And no, his ways are not that misterious, they are explained in the Bible. He wants to be loved, cherished and he wants people to listen to his demands.

    c) "God is punishing us for our sinful ways" - so, if he likes to interverne in humans' affairs, why doesn't he punish the sinful ones. Why punish the children? Why punish good people? Also, I thought he gave up on chiming in human's affairs after humans killes his son.

    d) "God punishes people because Eve ate something she wasn't supposed to eat" - sure, after Eve ate the apple, their punishment were "pains in childbearing" and "through painful toil you will eat food from it". Which is somewhat weird, because many tribes and nations continued to hunt and gather food for many centuries after God punished the man. Probably the punishment doesn't apply to Amerindians who didn't discover agriculture, like the people who wrote the Bible. But he doesn't mention anything about children being born with diformities and illnesses.

    If we analyze God's behaviour from a human standpoint, we can notice his traits are mostly human like. He gets mad easily, he is vain, he changes his mind several times, he likes to be appreciated, adored.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    PS: My questions updated:

    a) Who was Cain's wife?
    After Abel's death, Cain marries with a woman. AFTER this, Adam and Eve have a third one, named Seth. AFTER Seth, it is mentioned they have many sons and daughters.

    b) I am curious about Genesis 6 and your interpretation about these two:

    "Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. 2 The sons of God saw the beautiful women and took any they wanted as their wives" - who were the sons of God? seems like two separate species

    "In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times."

    c) Do you consider the theory of evolution false?

    d) From a matter of evil vs good, if human suffering maybe doesn't mean anything for God, why does evil means so much for him? He flooded Earth because people were evil and violent.
    "The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood."
    Why is so important for him the "must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it"?
    If humans are ineherently evil, why does God still struggle with them by telling Abraham to go and find a land and that he will make them (The Jews) a great nation?

    e) After the flood, there are 3 tribes, formed by the descendants of Noah. Japhethites, Hamites and Semites. Seems like a local Jewish story, not a genealogy of humans on all continents.

    ------------------------------------------
    Also, on a funnier note, this quote on the Bible reminds me of this old cartoon

    Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”


    Last edited by jaxqen; 09-14-2022 at 03:48 AM.
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    Well, essentially just rephrasing something I did spend an actual unbroken hour sitting down and writing naturally takes a lot less time. The rest of the answers are going to be more technical and less existential so I will probably take a little longer on those, and I'll reply to the follow up questions then. Again, though, this is just what I think as a guy on the internet. I've thought about these things like everyone else and lived halfway through my 20s, went to college and read some books. Doesn't make me an authority on the matter, but I'll do my best to reply with what I find to be the most reasonable answers.
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    Up and at 'em at 3:30am APipeDream's Avatar
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    Every single one of us will find out when we die. Personally, I don't believe in fairy tales and ways to make ourselves feel warm and fuzzy inside. Again though, I'll find out when I die.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by APipeDream View Post
    Every single one of us will find out when we die. Personally, I don't believe in fairy tales and ways to make ourselves feel warm and fuzzy inside. Again though, I'll find out when I die.
    I'm a bit of a hopeful agnostic personally. And really, if there is a 'God' - whatever that happens to mean to anyone - I don't think recognizing their existence while I'm alive would in any way dictate whether my post-earthly experience is pleasurable or miserable.

    So yeah, it would be cool if life in some way extended beyond earthly death, but I have no reason to believe it will based on anything I've seen or felt.
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