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  1. #1
    Registered User Darkseidd21's Avatar
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    Question Incline bench bigger than sumo deadlift wtf?

    Do I started sumo around 3 weeks ago and although first 2 weeks was getting used to form I tried today and max out at 135 I could've done more but I felt like my lower back would give up. Yesterday I incline benched 135 for 7-8 reps and today I'm like wtf how could possibly my incline bench is stronger than my deadlift.Roast me if u want for my dl strength but could someone address me what the problem is?
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    Registered User Sinfinia's Avatar
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    Nothing. You are a beginner, you don't know yet how to use your strength, everything about the weights you are capable of moving can change a lot, very fast, for many reasons, and Sumo Deadlift a somewhat more technical lift too, so one needs knowledge and experience in it.
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    Nothing. You are a beginner, you don't know yet how to use your strength, everything about the weights you are capable of moving can change a lot, very fast, for many reasons, and Sumo Deadlift a somewhat more technical lift too, so one needs knowledge and experience in it.
    I'm not saying my form is perfect,but I had a friend of mine who is powerlifter watched me do it and he said the form is very good, maybe it's because I weight 140 at 5'11
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    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Sumo has one purpose:

    Move more weight with less actual work. All about leverage.
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    Registered User Darkseidd21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Sumo has one purpose:

    Move more weight with less actual work. All about leverage.
    yeah but is easier on lower back
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    You're far stronger at something you've done for a long time versus something you've just started doing. Big surprise.

    My deadlift was lower than my bench when I first started doing them too.
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    Originally Posted by Darkseidd21 View Post
    yeah but is easier on lower back
    It is easier on everything except possibly adductors.
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    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    The conventional deadlift is more fun, too, I think. Something has always struck me as a little awkward about the sumo variation. Maybe just to see how much easier it is, I'll switch to it briefly, but I don't like how it shortens the range of motion so much and mitigates the role of the back.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    The conventional deadlift is more fun, too, I think. Something has always struck me as a little awkward about the sumo variation. Maybe just to see how much easier it is, I'll switch to it briefly, but I don't like how it shortens the range of motion so much and mitigates the role of the back.
    I do it cause I have lower back problems, I think conventional is the better option out of the two but hey gotta do what I can, tried it I think it's weird kinda, but give it a try
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    The conventional deadlift is more fun, too, I think. Something has always struck me as a little awkward about the sumo variation. Maybe just to see how much easier it is, I'll switch to it briefly, but I don't like how it shortens the range of motion so much and mitigates the role of the back.
    -That's what I feel about the Conventional Deadlift, coming from a background of doing Deficit Snatch Grip SLDLs. 😝
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    Originally Posted by Darkseidd21 View Post
    I'm not saying my form is perfect,but I had a friend of mine who is powerlifter watched me do it and he said the form is very good, maybe it's because I weight 140 at 5'11
    I doubt it is "perfect", because there is actually a lot of "advanced" complexity to it. (and just because the movement looks good, doesn't mean you actually know how to fire your neurons to "squeeze" your "true strength", especially on a relatively new lift).

    But then again: I wouldn't mind it. Bench Pressing and Pulling are very unrelated lifts, so why try to compare? Even if your Deadlift is "lagging", it's not lagging "behind your Incline Bench Press"; It's lagging behind what your *Deadlift* "could have been by now".

    So screw what is "normal"; if you think your Deadlift needs some work - put extra work (or practice) into it.
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    Originally Posted by Darkseidd21 View Post
    I do it cause I have lower back problems, I think conventional is the better option out of the two but hey gotta do what I can, tried it I think it's weird kinda, but give it a try
    The back is still doing the same exact thing in a sumo as it is in a conventional.

    What kind of lower back problems do you have exactly?
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    -That's what I feel about the Conventional Deadlift, coming from a background of doing Deficit Snatch Grip SLDLs.
    Lol that's totally fair

    You did those primarily or as an auxiliary variation for a max conventional pull?
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    I doubt it is "perfect", because there is actually a lot of "advanced" complexity to it. (and just because the movement looks good, doesn't mean you actually know how to fire your neurons to "squeeze" your "true strength", especially on a relatively new lift).

    But then again: I wouldn't mind it. Bench Pressing and Pulling are very unrelated lifts, so why try to compare? Even if your Deadlift is "lagging", it's not lagging "behind your Incline Bench Press"; It's lagging behind what your *Deadlift* "could have been by now".

    So screw what is "normal"; if you think your Deadlift needs some work - put extra work (or practice) into it.
    yeah I neglected it cause I was scared I was gonna get injured badly so one day I stopped being little bitch and started it,definitely aim for that 405 by the end of this year that being of course with good nutrition
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    The back is still doing the same exact thing in a sumo as it is in a conventional.

    What kind of lower back problems do you have exactly?
    had bad sciatica in the past and still kinda feel it to this day but not as much as previous,my first time when I had sciatica it literally was like someone stabbed me in the hip and the knee, thah **** is scary that's why I avoided dl and squats
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Lol that's totally fair

    You did those primarily or as an auxiliary variation for a max conventional pull?
    No, I did those because I could not get the hang of Conventional Deadlift (they felt awkward not matter what I tried), and the coaches around were not very useful,
    however, as a newbie I drew a lot of inspiration from Klokov, and when I gave those a try - they just felt so convenient! I was happy to have finally found a way to deadlift at all, and it became my main pull.

    Eventually I picked up WL, and realized that they do nothing to help my Snatch, as I am just getting strong in a movement patterns and positions that do not translate to a better Snatch Pull (other than not being afraid of holding heavy weights), so no I am mostly doing Snatch Pulls, or variations of the Snatch Deadlift (which is *different* from Deadlift done in Snatch Grip).

    In fact, I was so used to those, it actually took 2 years for pulls starting with bent knee to feel as strong as my SLDLs, and if you program Clean Pulls (with appropriate weights) for me, I would *still* rather doing (the supposedly much harder) Snatch Pulls instead. (using the same weights!)

    I can do Conventional Deadlifts now (in a sense of not feeling awkward), but I got no "in depth" understanding of that pull, and I very rarely do it.
    Not so long ago I decided to give Conventional Deadlifts a go (3 weeks of some practice, and then a max attempt test) and pulled 490 strapped, which is (naturally) much less impressive than my 420 Snatch Deadlift.

    -----

    -I still consider the Snatch Deadlift a "main lift" in sense of goals and max attempt tempting, but I use Snatch Pulls as my work tool.

    -Similarly: I consider Front Squat my "main squat", however most of my squat work is Back Squat (as I find it capable of building my Front Squat, but not the other way around).

    -But the odd part is how I have no clue how to properly Overhead Press ("like normal people do"). I could never understand how to do it. I can press 187.5 behind the neck while sitting in the bottom of the squat, or lock 270+ (again, behind the neck) for reps with very minimal leg power involved, but cannot consistently hit 190 Military Press for a single.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    If you can't do a conventional deadlift for whatever reason then it's out of the question to expect your sumo to be at any relative standard next to another exercise.
    Looks good when flexing Crew
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    The back is still doing the same exact thing in a sumo as it is in a conventional.

    What kind of lower back problems do you have exactly?
    The difference in orientation with the hips and thighs is likely correlated to the contribution of strain in the back.
    Looks good when flexing Crew
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    If you can't do a conventional deadlift for whatever reason then it's out of the question to expect your sumo to be at any relative standard next to another exercise.
    i saw a lot of guys on yt who gave up conventional for sumo and still made great progress, I know most people hate sumo cause they think it's cheating,but come on sumo deadlift weaker than incline, that's just something I'm really ashamed of
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    No, I did those because I could not get the hang of Conventional Deadlift (they felt awkward not matter what I tried), and the coaches around were not very useful,
    however, as a newbie I drew a lot of inspiration from Klokov, and when I gave those a try - they just felt so convenient! I was happy to have finally found a way to deadlift at all, and it became my main pull.

    Eventually I picked up WL, and realized that they do nothing to help my Snatch, as I am just getting strong in a movement patterns and positions that do not translate to a better Snatch Pull (other than not being afraid of holding heavy weights), so no I am mostly doing Snatch Pulls, or variations of the Snatch Deadlift (which is *different* from Deadlift done in Snatch Grip).

    In fact, I was so used to those, it actually took 2 years for pulls starting with bent knee to feel as strong as my SLDLs, and if you program Clean Pulls (with appropriate weights) for me, I would *still* rather doing (the supposedly much harder) Snatch Pulls instead. (using the same weights!)

    I can do Conventional Deadlifts now (in a sense of not feeling awkward), but I got no "in depth" understanding of that pull, and I very rarely do it.
    Not so long ago I decided to give Conventional Deadlifts a go (3 weeks of some practice, and then a max attempt test) and pulled 490 strapped, which is (naturally) much less impressive than my 420 Snatch Deadlift.

    -----

    -I still consider the Snatch Deadlift a "main lift" in sense of goals and max attempt tempting, but I use Snatch Pulls as my work tool.

    -Similarly: I consider Front Squat my "main squat", however most of my squat work is Back Squat (as I find it capable of building my Front Squat, but not the other way around).

    -But the odd part is how I have no clue how to properly Overhead Press ("like normal people do"). I could never understand how to do it. I can press 187.5 behind the neck while sitting in the bottom of the squat, or lock 270+ (again, behind the neck) for reps with very minimal leg power involved, but cannot consistently hit 190 Military Press for a single.
    almost 190 behind the neck???? Most people don't bench that in my gym,let alone military press behind the neck, nice man nice!!
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    No, I did those because I could not get the hang of Conventional Deadlift (they felt awkward not matter what I tried), and the coaches around were not very useful,
    however, as a newbie I drew a lot of inspiration from Klokov, and when I gave those a try - they just felt so convenient! I was happy to have finally found a way to deadlift at all, and it became my main pull.

    Eventually I picked up WL, and realized that they do nothing to help my Snatch, as I am just getting strong in a movement patterns and positions that do not translate to a better Snatch Pull (other than not being afraid of holding heavy weights), so no I am mostly doing Snatch Pulls, or variations of the Snatch Deadlift (which is *different* from Deadlift done in Snatch Grip).

    In fact, I was so used to those, it actually took 2 years for pulls starting with bent knee to feel as strong as my SLDLs, and if you program Clean Pulls (with appropriate weights) for me, I would *still* rather doing (the supposedly much harder) Snatch Pulls instead. (using the same weights!)

    I can do Conventional Deadlifts now (in a sense of not feeling awkward), but I got no "in depth" understanding of that pull, and I very rarely do it.
    Not so long ago I decided to give Conventional Deadlifts a go (3 weeks of some practice, and then a max attempt test) and pulled 490 strapped, which is (naturally) much less impressive than my 420 Snatch Deadlift.

    -----

    -I still consider the Snatch Deadlift a "main lift" in sense of goals and max attempt tempting, but I use Snatch Pulls as my work tool.

    -Similarly: I consider Front Squat my "main squat", however most of my squat work is Back Squat (as I find it capable of building my Front Squat, but not the other way around).

    -But the odd part is how I have no clue how to properly Overhead Press ("like normal people do"). I could never understand how to do it. I can press 187.5 behind the neck while sitting in the bottom of the squat, or lock 270+ (again, behind the neck) for reps with very minimal leg power involved, but cannot consistently hit 190 Military Press for a single.
    Those are some very impressive numbers!

    It took me a long time to learn how to engage my legs properly in the conventional, and I too would always default to a straight-legged pull, so as far as that goes, I know what you mean.

    Pulling 490 with 3 weeks of acclimation off of the snatch DL means you could probably hit 545 or so in one block of dedicated training. Does that not interest you? The 420 snatch is excellent, but do you not have interest in seeing what you can do with conventional in aiming to get familiar with it? (Same with OHP; to be able to strict press 225 or so any day of the week after just some technique work is enviable; to each their own, but I'd at least go for it.)

    If you're not interested in the "plain" exercises, that's completely understandable. Just wondering what your thought process is given the enormous potential there from having such a high strength level with more difficult variations already.
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    Originally Posted by Darkseidd21 View Post
    i saw a lot of guys on yt who gave up conventional for sumo and still made great progress, I know most people hate sumo cause they think it's cheating,but come on sumo deadlift weaker than incline, that's just something I'm really ashamed of
    Yes but you haven't made any progress with either so how is that information of relevance?
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Sumo has one purpose:

    Move more weight with less actual work. All about leverage.
    Ahhhh...
    That sounds EXACTLY like the trap bar 😉👌

    I quote enjoy sumo tbh, it actually puts more meat on my ass n 'hips' than a conv stance ever could.

    Personal notes- 'it aint all black and white'
    Has more dynamic correspondence to my squats and can let me hammer more workload for more gains overall.
    Beats my up less due to my hip morphology.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Ahhhh...
    That sounds EXACTLY like the trap bar
    Only when you use the high handles m8.

    I like trap bars cause my I have enough scars on my shins already and want all the power I can get out of my legs. Oh, and the shoulders are in a much better position, so shoulders tighter to the side = more lat engagement = less lower back rounding (always a good thing)

    And no, I will not wear long socks to deadlift or pants to the gym :P

    I quote enjoy sumo tbh, it actually puts more meat on my ass n 'hips' than a conv stance ever could.
    How when it has less overall ROM than a conventional? But then again, you ARE built kinda weird. Maybe your legs are just in a better position with sumo to actually contribute?
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Only when you use the high handles m8.

    I like trap bars cause my I have enough scars on my shins already and want all the power I can get out of my legs. Oh, and the shoulders are in a much better position, so shoulders tighter to the side = more lat engagement = less lower back rounding (always a good thing)
    ^^
    This


    Also, if someone complains about ROM on hexbar, he can do what this guy does

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    Originally Posted by Darkseidd21 View Post
    almost 190 behind the neck???? Most people don't bench that in my gym,let alone military press behind the neck, nice man nice!!
    I don't see OHP behind the neck as a "harder" exercise. For all I care - it is a simpler movement, the bar is going up in a straight line, the head is not in the way...

    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Those are some very impressive numbers!

    It took me a long time to learn how to engage my legs properly in the conventional, and I too would always default to a straight-legged pull, so as far as that goes, I know what you mean.

    Pulling 490 with 3 weeks of acclimation off of the snatch DL means you could probably hit 545 or so in one block of dedicated training. Does that not interest you? The 420 snatch is excellent, but do you not have interest in seeing what you can do with conventional in aiming to get familiar with it? (Same with OHP; to be able to strict press 225 or so any day of the week after just some technique work is enviable; to each their own, but I'd at least go for it.)

    If you're not interested in the "plain" exercises, that's completely understandable. Just wondering what your thought process is given the enormous potential there from having such a high strength level with more difficult variations already.
    To me, the Deadlift is just "something people do to put more weight on the bar". I respect it (it might have short RoM, but then you can just load it and struggle with a grindy pull that takes a lot of *time* in which you are putting in your best, so...), but I do not really feel like finding what I can do on it.
    Furthermore, my technique in WL is very inconsistent, and the damage a "Deadlift block" can do to me technique wise might take over two months of unlearning "bad" habits. (Such as thrusting forward, and exploding the bar away from you, rather than above).

    *It did affect my Cleans in a good way, because I tend to "over-pull" them, and thinking "Conventional Deadlift" when I clean ended up helping them... But I'd rather focus my work on proper Clean Pull practice, without messing with my Snatch Pull.

    *I did do some OHP-ing and Bench Pressing during those 3 weeks of Deadlifting, but I can't see myself putting work into them other than: "Once a few months, let's do them for one block, and see how better I am compared to the last time I did them).
    I was very happy with going from 80kg -> 90kg on OHP, and" never tried more than 110kg" -> essy 132.5kg on the Bench...

    But I will be happier to Snatch Push Press 140kg, or Snatch Dead 200kg. (or drop below 100kg BW!), or get my Front Squat to a level proportionate to my Back Squat (because I have been neglecting it for a while), or...be able to do 5x5 @ 85% of my current 1RM (I can barely do one set of 5s @ 77%!), and then test my 1RM.

    But the feat that will most probably make me happiest is being to do 5x160kg Squat while singing 'Barbie Girl', as friend of mine did this a few years ago for fun and giggles, and when I started training, I promised to one day send him my cover version.

    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    How when it has less overall ROM than a conventional
    Because it is set in a way that puts your glutes in a more advantageous position.

    And I am not fully bought into the "less RoM" thingie. How do we measure RoM? Just barbell distance traveled? Do we have not care about the movements our bodies are doing? (in 3D!)
    Do pull-ups have "0 RoM" because the bar doesn't move?
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Only when you use the high handles m8.

    I like trap bars cause my I have enough scars on my shins already and want all the power I can get out of my legs. Oh, and the shoulders are in a much better position, so shoulders tighter to the side = more lat engagement = less lower back rounding (always a good thing)

    And no, I will not wear long socks to deadlift or pants to the gym :P



    How when it has less overall ROM than a conventional? But then again, you ARE built kinda weird. Maybe your legs are just in a better position with sumo to actually contribute?

    Low trap handles.
    Its still a much easier leveraged position, i can pull plates more on low handles than conv or sumo.
    I Litterally never use high handles. Hell ours dont have them.

    Sumo.
    Yes, the rom is shorter... But the stretch on the appropriate musculature is still there when you anchor your hips properly.. Ill frequently use short plates or stand on planks for defecits too.

    Im NOT built like belkin and cant stack my entire body vertically lol. 99% of people can't and the difference is far less that people seem to think.

    But i DO have hip sockets and femur heads that groove out wider, and not forward (not quite full Scottish hip but still retroverted)

    The reason it puts much more mass on me is that i can do so much more workload with it without getting beaten up. Maybe lift for lift in a vacuum its less, but training isn't in as vacuum.. This is frequently over looked.

    And whatever you can train consistently, with more workload over time without getting battered WILL win out for the individual.

    Follow the path of athlete response.
    FMH crew - Couch.

    If a post sounds like N=1 and that they have no experience coaching anyone but them selves?

    Do the math. You ain't that person, their experience probably isn't going to be yours. Can still be useful for inspiration - try things, follow athlete response and track trends In your training.
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    Originally Posted by Sinfinia View Post
    I don't see OHP behind the neck as a "harder" exercise. For all I care - it is a simpler movement, the bar is going up in a straight line, the head is not in the way...



    To me, the Deadlift is just "something people do to put more weight on the bar". I respect it (it might have short RoM, but then you can just load it and struggle with a grindy pull that takes a lot of *time* in which you are putting in your best, so...), but I do not really feel like finding what I can do on it.
    Furthermore, my technique in WL is very inconsistent, and the damage a "Deadlift block" can do to me technique wise might take over two months of unlearning "bad" habits. (Such as thrusting forward, and exploding the bar away from you, rather than above).

    *It did affect my Cleans in a good way, because I tend to "over-pull" them, and thinking "Conventional Deadlift" when I clean ended up helping them... But I'd rather focus my work on proper Clean Pull practice, without messing with my Snatch Pull.

    *I did do some OHP-ing and Bench Pressing during those 3 weeks of Deadlifting, but I can't see myself putting work into them other than: "Once a few months, let's do them for one block, and see how better I am compared to the last time I did them).
    I was very happy with going from 80kg -> 90kg on OHP, and" never tried more than 110kg" -> essy 132.5kg on the Bench...

    But I will be happier to Snatch Push Press 140kg, or Snatch Dead 200kg. (or drop below 100kg BW!), or get my Front Squat to a level proportionate to my Back Squat (because I have been neglecting it for a while), or...be able to do 5x5 @ 85% of my current 1RM (I can barely do one set of 5s @ 77%!), and then test my 1RM.

    But the feat that will most probably make me happiest is being to do 5x160kg Squat while singing 'Barbie Girl', as friend of mine did this a few years ago for fun and giggles, and when I started training, I promised to one day send him my cover version.



    Because it is set in a way that puts your glutes in a more advantageous position.

    And I am not fully bought into the "less RoM" thingie. How do we measure RoM? Just barbell distance traveled? Do we have not care about the movements our bodies are doing? (in 3D!)
    Do pull-ups have "0 RoM" because the bar doesn't move?
    I feel the same way about deadlifts. Something about the Olympic lifts seems so graceful. I have like 0 interest in doing them myself but to each their own.

    There are ways deadlifts could be more useful, like this:

    https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cd_DfpM...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

    I’ve applied that to both trap bar and straight bar deadlifts in the past and the tension is unreal. But I still got more actual back development out of just rowing heavier.

    Anyway, the glutes are actually in a pretty sh!tty position to produce force in a sumo deadlift.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 05-25-2022 at 04:04 PM.
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    Chihuahua in the rain Corbets's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Sumo has one purpose:

    Move more weight with less actual work. All about leverage.
    https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=j...4CTeOV5yAvxnbW

    That’s one view, anyway.
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