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    Grams of protein a day.

    How many grams of protein should I be taking a day if I wanna to stay lean and muscular. Is something around 120 g per day alright for someone that weighs about 170 pounds. I would be taking this though through plant sources. I use a pea powder mixed with rice powder so the amino acid profile is similar to whey. Thanks Rich
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    1.6 grams per day for every 1kg of LEAN body mass - that is the most that is supported by available research in that it shows an advantage. You can have more but it won't necessarily improve things.

    Plant sources are slightly less 'complete' and 'bioavailable' but its fine as long as you get a diverse mix of sources and maybe take a little more in total than you would if it was whey.
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    1.6 grams per day for every 1kg of LEAN body mass - that is the most that is supported by available research in that it shows an advantage. You can have more but it won't necessarily improve things.

    Plant sources are slightly less 'complete' and 'bioavailable' but its fine as long as you get a diverse mix of sources and maybe take a little more in total than you would if it was whey.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    combining the pea powder and the rice powder gives me the better profile. I’m not trying to go for all out 175 200 g of protein but I want to raise myself from having about 70 to about 125. I’ve been doing this for a couple weeks and I’m actually getting some better gains. because when you eat no meat whey etc you don’t get any creatine. Your body makes 1 g of creatine naturally. And if you eat a lot of meat you get another gram of creatine. if you’re vegan and you start taking creatine you get a better response than someone who has been taking creatine and eating meat because you’ve been working out and your body is not even processing the creatine normally much. Once you start taking it you get like a blast. I’ve been doing a little higher reps 12 reps and increasing my weights and that’s also been because I seem to have a little more ATP or something. It seems to be working well. Rich
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    ... ... ...
    In my personal opinion the video is largely correct but suffers greatly from overly stretching the argument.

    Anyone who argues that variety isn't a huge benefit to any diet, be that vegan/veg/meat/whatever is going in the wrong direction. The same is true for an omnivorous diet, making an effort to combine different sources can also be helpful. I don't see anything wrong with encouraging a variety of sources... true though that for the average person it's not essential to prevent some purported inevitable deficiency.

    This does neatly tie in with the next problem (simplifying back again now to ignore amino acid balance). How much protein? There are a lot of studies if you care to Google it that show the average person doesn't need much protein at all and that high levels put strain on the kidneys. They contradict other studies that show people benefit from the 1-1.5g per kg lean weight. The issue seems to be that the average person doesn't exercise and certainly doesn't do any hard resistance training of any type.

    It seems to be that people who do exercise hard benefit from higher levels of protein than people who don't (maybe double or triple their levels) and that the exercise also protects them in some way from the negative effects these higher levels may have on the sedentary.

    Back to the original point on plant based protein sources. Warning: this is my opinion and no actual study.

    I would expect that the average person who doesn't resistance train could make little or no effort to combine dissimilar plant protein sources and would still be just fine... as described in the video you linked.

    But someone who does resistance train has a different protein requirement and probably will benefit from some variety of sources to improve the amino acid profile ( especially for tryptophan and lysine). But point taken... there is a lot of unnecessary hype around this topic probably going back to historical anti vegetarian thinking and people shouldn't get overly worried about it.

    I'd be happy to throw any of these opinions stated above straight in the bin if anyone did find studies about dietary variety (for amino acids) based on vegan *Athletes* not average Joe, that come to a different conclusion
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    In my personal opinion the video is largely correct but suffers greatly from overly stretching the argument.

    Anyone who argues that variety isn't a huge benefit to any diet, be that vegan/veg/meat/whatever is going in the wrong direction. The same is true for an omnivorous diet, making an effort to combine different sources can also be helpful. I don't see anything wrong with encouraging a variety of sources... true though that for the average person it's not essential to prevent some purported inevitable deficiency.

    This does neatly tie in with the next problem (simplifying back again now to ignore amino acid balance). How much protein? There are a lot of studies if you care to Google it that show the average person doesn't need much protein at all and that high levels put strain on the kidneys. They contradict other studies that show people benefit from the 1-1.5g per kg lean weight. The issue seems to be that the average person doesn't exercise and certainly doesn't do any hard resistance training of any type.

    It seems to be that people who do exercise hard benefit from higher levels of protein than people who don't (maybe double or triple their levels) and that the exercise also protects them in some way from the negative effects these higher levels may have on the sedentary.

    Back to the original point on plant based protein sources. Warning: this is my opinion and no actual study.

    I would expect that the average person who doesn't resistance train could make little or no effort to combine dissimilar plant protein sources and would still be just fine... as described in the video you linked.

    But someone who does resistance train has a different protein requirement and probably will benefit from some variety of sources to improve the amino acid profile ( especially for tryptophan and lysine). But point taken... there is a lot of unnecessary hype around this topic probably going back to historical anti vegetarian thinking and people shouldn't get overly worried about it.

    I'd be happy to throw any of these opinions stated above straight in the bin if anyone did find studies about dietary variety (for amino acids) based on vegan *Athletes* not average Joe, that come to a different conclusion
    Strawman and non sequitur.
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    Originally Posted by RichS19 View Post
    combining the pea powder and the rice powder gives me the better profile. I’m not trying to go for all out 175 200 g of protein but I want to raise myself from having about 70 to about 125. I’ve been doing this for a couple weeks and I’m actually getting some better gains. because when you eat no meat whey etc you don’t get any creatine. Your body makes 1 g of creatine naturally. And if you eat a lot of meat you get another gram of creatine. if you’re vegan and you start taking creatine you get a better response than someone who has been taking creatine and eating meat because you’ve been working out and your body is not even processing the creatine normally much. Once you start taking it you get like a blast. I’ve been doing a little higher reps 12 reps and increasing my weights and that’s also been because I seem to have a little more ATP or something. It seems to be working well. Rich
    I took creatine last year, but so far, not this year, yet. I'll start again, today and pay attention to the workout differences once I've achieved saturation.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Strawman and non sequitur.
    Which bit, the treating average Joe requirements different from people who train or that variety is of high value in all diets? Please be specific, I'm looking to learn not argue, so if you want to point me in a better direction, give me something to go on
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Which bit, the treating average Joe requirements different from people who train or that variety is of high value in all diets? Please be specific, I'm looking to learn not argue, so if you want to point me in a better direction, give me something to go on
    You can surely see that this troll argues just to argue?
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Which bit, the treating average Joe requirements different from people who train or that variety is of high value in all diets? Please be specific, I'm looking to learn not argue, so if you want to point me in a better direction, give me something to go on
    If we were in a formal debate, I'd have to point out the individual fallacies and explain why they were fallacious, but we're not and I won't. Watch the video again and relate what you said to what the guy is actually talking about. You know what strawman and non sequitur is.

    P.S. You weren't trolling, were you?
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    You can surely see that this troll argues just to argue?
    You're the only troll on the forum, but you're too affected to see it.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    If we were in a formal debate, I'd have to point out the individual fallacies and explain why they were fallacious, but we're not and I won't. Watch the video again and relate what you said to what the guy is actually talking about. You know what strawman and non sequitur is.

    P.S. You weren't trolling, were you?
    I [almost] never troll and I wasn't trolling here. Will watch again, it's only a quick video. If I still don't get it, please set me straight... I certainly don't want a long argument based on formal logic (with all those damn symbols) or anything dry and scholarly, but a few reasonable pointers would be appreciated
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I [almost] never troll and I wasn't trolling here. Will watch again, it's only a quick video. If I still don't get it, please set me straight... I certainly don't want a long argument based on formal logic (with all those damn symbols) or anything dry and scholarly, but a few reasonable pointers would be appreciated
    Just pay attention to what he actually says, rather than arguing against things that he didn't say or imply.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Just pay attention to what he actually says, rather than arguing against things that he didn't say or imply.
    The one thing I’ve noticed about Dr. Gregor he’s primarily right in many things but when it comes to athletes Robert Cheeck or someone else who is whole food plant based as I am, would be closer to us in our thinking. Dr. Gregor is not speaking about bodybuilders but the normal people who are working within the plans that he talks about for a normal person. We are not normal people we are seeking to gain more muscle and not just lose fat. You’ll look and see any time they talk about protein requirements and you will always see if you were an athlete, if you do strength training, if you if if if. It’s always added as a caveat. So get your sources from plant sources if you are that inclined and eat more. The idea that you can get as much protein as you can by just adding calories does not mean where you get these calories from. I’ve noticed I get better results when I’ve had supplementation adding about half of the creatine that’s normally told to be in a dose, and adding powder[pea-rice combo] I’m 71 I’m need a little more protein anyway as muscle has more of a tendency to be lost as we age. when we work out we break down muscle whereas most people don’t that’s why they don’t get hypertrophy. As with all things we need to find out what tools we need to use for what we need to get done. Rich
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    Both Renaissance periodization and Jeff Nippert recently did videos on how much protein and do cite a number of scholarly studies.
    If you are working to build muscle mass the conventional wisdom of 1-2 grams of protein per lb of body weight is a very good starting place. Mixing... fine. Adding creatine - generally has robust clinical support. Give it a try and see how you do, but from OP I'd say yes step up the protein a bit.
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    I have no clue how much protein I get in?

    I’m sure there are days I don’t even get 1g per pound BW.
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    One of the good effects of plant proteins it doesn’t seem to affect the kidneys the way that animal sources do. Strain on the kidneys you get from eating too much meat and other sources from animals it’s not seen much if at all in plant sourced proteins.
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    I have no clue how much protein I get in?

    I’m sure there are days I don’t even get 1g per pound BW.
    I don't know, either. I just eat when I'm hungry and trust the body to do its job. I've read stories about people that lived to extreme old age just eating rye bread and smoked salmon. Extreme physical exertion on a near daily basis is the fountain of youth.
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    1.435 grams per lb of lean body mass - the mass of the feet and cranium.

    Any more and your heart will explode; any less and you will waste away to nothing in a matter of weeks.
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    I have no clue how much protein I get in?

    I’m sure there are days I don’t even get 1g per pound BW.
    if you check my picture you’ll see that I’m not even getting 1 g of protein per lb. yet I make good gains but I’ll make more by getting at least 120 g I weigh 175 pounds. That was only on 70. I’m thinking 120+ will be better. It seems to have been working that way the last month.
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    I’ve noticed that when they talk about how much protein someone needs they’re talking about an average person too. They’re not talking about someone else lifting a lot. when they talk about the 20 to 30 g of protein that your muscles can absorb after lifting and then eating. Saying that’s all the muscle can use, but since your body needs maintenance of 10 to 20 g of protein for all the rest of your organs to have their protein that doesn’t take anything then away from what you’re trying to build by lifting. therefore the extra is not wasted. It is used by the body to do all the things that had to be done anyway. You put more demand on it that’s why you need that extra. The other problem is as we get older we do not absorb the proteins as fast or as efficiently as someone younger. Therefore again need to have more of it not the standard someone younger needs.
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    Originally Posted by RichS19 View Post
    One of the good effects of plant proteins it doesn’t seem to affect the kidneys the way that animal sources do. Strain on the kidneys you get from eating too much meat and other sources from animals it’s not seen much if at all in plant sourced proteins.

    Just about 56. According to myfitnesspal, if it’s accurate, I typically get 300-400 G protein/day over 5-6 meals.

    Been doing this most of my life.
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    1G per pound of bodyweight when leaning out. 1G per lb of lean body weight when adding mass. Eggs, chicken and flank steak, Salmon once a week
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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    Originally Posted by RichS19 View Post
    One of the good effects of plant proteins it doesn’t seem to affect the kidneys the way that animal sources do. Strain on the kidneys you get from eating too much meat and other sources from animals it’s not seen much if at all in plant sourced proteins.
    Source? I don't usually challenge a poster but I'm genuinely interested. I haven't seen anything on this in the literature I've reviewed. Most find animal proteins superior gram for gram in muscle building.

    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    1.435 grams per lb of lean body mass - the mass of the feet and cranium.

    Any more and your heart will explode; any less and you will waste away to nothing in a matter of weeks.
    LOL ... I was thinking 1.434 grams exactly?

    Originally Posted by RichS19 View Post
    if you check my picture you’ll see that I’m not even getting 1 g of protein per lb. yet I make good gains but I’ll make more by getting at least 120 g I weigh 175 pounds. That was only on 70. I’m thinking 120+ will be better. It seems to have been working that way the last month.
    YMMV, but yes, most research would support a fair bit higher protein intake than you report here.
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    I’m actually trying to activate my IGF1 factor as I get older. Just not enough to get anything growing like tumors ,cancer etc.just some muscle growth. That’s why I’m not going for the higher protein levels. At 71 I don’t really want funny little things popping up that shouldn’t be there ha ha…Rich
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    Originally Posted by RichS19 View Post
    I’m actually trying to activate my IGF1 factor as I get older. Just not enough to get anything growing like tumors ,cancer etc.just some muscle growth. That’s why I’m not going for the higher protein levels. At 71 I don’t really want funny little things popping up that shouldn’t be there ha ha…Rich
    Fair enough.
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    6/20/21 USPA Western drug tested regionals: DQ (bombed squats) @ 192lb
    2/27/21 USPA PNW drug tested championships: 468/308/501/1278 @ 202lb
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