HardGainer = Myth

[LWW]

Let me put this as simple as possible, meaning there may be science involved but let’s NOT overthink it.

There is one variable here, my consensus is based on drug free trainees.

After witnessing over 20 years of various professional athletes train, ive noticed something.

These folks work harder than you think.......

In the simplest scenario, if I put two subjects on the same program of a rep scheme of the typical 15-20 rep squat and one subject isn’t getting the gains as the other subject. He needs to do 30-40 or more reps in his set.

This thinking is the same in ALL exercises.

I remember those sets of 7-8 or 8-12s I would do in my early days following Flex mag, they worked at first, but then the word Hardgainer gets thrown around.

The problem was not hardgainer, it was that I was NOT training hard enough.

Most people THINK they are working hard, but really they aren’t working hard at all!

[coachcalande]

Let me put this as simple as possible, meaning there may be science involved but let’s NOT overthink it.

There is one variable here, my consensus is based on drug free trainees.

After witnessing over 20 years of various professional athletes train, ive noticed something.

These folks work harder than you think.......

In the simplest scenario, if I put two subjects on the same program of a rep scheme of the typical 15-20 rep squat and one subject isn’t getting the gains as the other subject. He needs to do 30-40 or more reps in his set.

This thinking is the same in ALL exercises.

I remember those sets of 7-8 or 8-12s I would do in my early days following Flex mag, they worked at first, but then the word Hardgainer gets thrown around.

The problem was not hardgainer, it was that I was NOT training hard enough.

Most people THINK they are working hard, but really they aren’t working hard at all!

I bought into the “I’m a hard gainer” thing in my teens and 20s. My body fat was really low, my lifts were weak/low and though I trained hard, size and strength avoided me…it was sloooow.

Then I learned to eat every three hours and reduce cardio. I trained half as often. Instead of six days a week, two hours a day in the gym, it was an hour and a half every other day.

Problem solved. Strength up 400% and body weight doubled.

[LWW]

Hi Coach, thanks for stepping in.

I was what was called in Arnold’s book Ectomorph as a teen. I didn’t eat much.

[ectoBgone]

It's over diagnosed but not a myth.

[LWW]

It's over diagnosed but not a myth.

There is no thing as hardgainer.

If someone is not making gains, either they are not eating or they are not training enough.

It’s really as simple as that.....

The so-called hardgainer is told they need more rest and recovery and less this, less that, not more.That is incorrect......

[LWW]

Here is an example of another myth of overtraining body parts.

Take the guy who never wears straps and does tons of pulls, what happens, the forearms get huge from daily training.

So think of other body parts being worked as hard as forearms.

[Tommy W.]

Hardgainer reasons

- Too few calories
- Subpar training
- Subpar recovery
- Low T
- Overall genetics

Many times it's not hardgaining, it's unreasonable expectations

[x-trainer ben]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardgainer

worth a look

[OldFartTom]

Are you saying that everyone has absolutely identical genetic potentials and say... Danny DeVito and Brian Shaw potential strength is only separated by training and diet and nothing more?

Obviously some people are going to have a genetic predisposition to develop more muscles or whatever and others don't so much. I have to be careful here, don't misinterpret this, I'm in awe at the work ethic of champions, yes they are the best due to hard work, my argument doesn't dispute that or disrespect their hard work. I'm absolutely calling bull on all those people who use "hard gainer" as an excuse for their mediocrity rather than looking at their training and diet.

I'm 95% in agreement with this thread, but don't overstate this either. Some people will get slower results, some faster. That's life.

Can we stick to the line that people shouldn't compare to anyone except themselves. Sounds at first like some "it's OK, everyone gets a medal" BS, but if you look at it closer, actually it's the harshest of all measures. The term hardgainer is also bad IMHO as that encourages comparison, as well as excuses.

Personally I describe myself as a slow gainer. My genetics want to make me look like a weedier version of Sheldon Cooper but my training defies it. I may be a slow gainer but I'm using the tactics of the tortoise, I may never lift as much as you guys but I'll damn well lift more than the me from last month!

[LWW]

Are you saying that everyone has absolutely identical genetic potentials and say... Danny DeVito and Brian Shaw potential strength is only separated by training and diet and nothing more?

Obviously some people are going to have a genetic predisposition to develop more muscles or whatever and others don't so much. I have to be careful here, don't misinterpret this, I'm in awe at the work ethic of champions, yes they are the best due to hard work, my argument doesn't dispute that or disrespect their hard work. I'm absolutely calling bull on all those people who use "hard gainer" as an excuse for their mediocrity rather than looking at their training and diet.

I'm 95% in agreement with this thread, but don't overstate this either. Some people will get slower results, some faster. That's life.

Can we stick to the line that people shouldn't compare to anyone except themselves. Sounds at first like some "it's OK, everyone gets a medal" BS, but if you look at it closer, actually it's the harshest of all measures. The term hardgainer is also bad IMHO as that encourages comparison, as well as excuses.

Personally I describe myself as a slow gainer. My genetics want to make me look like a weedier version of Sheldon Cooper but my training defies it. I may be a slow gainer but I'm using the tactics of the tortoise, I may never lift as much as you guys but I'll damn well lift more than the me from last month!

Yo Tommy, here’s how I’m looking at me right now.

I could do something right here right now to make my gains faster and better, but I’m not doing that right now, In fact I’m not even lifting any weights today.

PS I haven’t updated my journal, I did train yesterday and you can’t even go by my journal because I will forget to write something I did, srs.

[Karl_Hungus]

Just like everything else, there is a continuum that characterizes the ease at which a person can gain muscle -- genetics is an actual thing. I have no issue if somebody wants to describe the low end of that continuum as being a "hard gainer". There are some people that no matter how hard they train or structure their diet will never bench 400+ pounds or deadlift 600+ pounds etc., just as there are those who will never look like a competitive bodybuilder no matter what they do.

That said, I would agree that people are too quick to dismiss what is possible because they aren't willing to put in the work.

[Cantplankwell]

At this stage in my lifting "career" I am mainly interested in recovery, and how to do a better job of it. Im a hard recoverer

[ectoBgone]

There is no thing as hardgainer.

If someone is not making gains, either they are not eating or they are not training enough.

It's not an inability to make fat gains that puts the "hard" in hardgainer.

It’s really as simple as that.....

Only in the mind of a simpleton.

[supramax]

At this stage in my lifting "career" I am mainly interested in recovery, and how to do a better job of it. Im a hard recoverer

OMAD rules for recovery. Digestion uses more energy than any other life process.

[Oceanside]

Just like everything else, there is a continuum that characterizes the ease at which a person can gain muscle -- genetics is an actual thing. I have no issue if somebody wants to describe the low end of that continuum as being a "hard gainer". There are some people that no matter how hard they train or structure their diet will never bench 400+ pounds or deadlift 600+ pounds etc., just as there are those who will never look like a competitive bodybuilder no matter what they do.

That said, I would agree that people are too quick to dismiss what is possible because they aren't willing to put in the work.

agree.

[induced_drag]

Very much indeed are 'hard gainers'. Life in general is a bell curve. There is the bulk in the middle and then the outer ends of the spectrum.

With over 20 years in the gym, I have seen people who have worked harder and ate better for years, and made only fractions of the progress I was able to make in months. I have also seen people who make me look like a puny weakling while all they at was big macs and still stayed at 8%bf.

The key is we all can become better versions of ourselves.

There is a guy on here ACC. He and I butted heads quite a bit. But I can respect his struggle. He put in TONS of work. Even ran legit caloric surpluses while running solid programs, and he made very little progress relatively. He ground it out though. Life is not fair. I will never be in the NBA, but you play the hand you are dealt. We all can improve, but dont be so quick to dismiss others struggle.

[startingat56]

can't tell you if hard gainer is a real thing or not but would point out that when you look at the labourers from a century ago, I am sure that if they had more than a salami sandwich and thermos of coffee in their lunchbox, they'd me a lot bigger. Most looked like string beans but moved heavy sh!t for long hours

[Oceanside]

Very much indeed are 'hard gainers'. Life in general is a bell curve. There is the bulk in the middle and then the outer ends of the spectrum.

With over 20 years in the gym, I have seen people who have worked harder and ate better for years, and made only fractions of the progress I was able to make in months. I have also seen people who make me look like a puny weakling while all they at was big macs and still stayed at 8%bf.

The key is we all can become better versions of ourselves.

There is a guy on here ACC. He and I butted heads quite a bit. But I can respect his struggle. He put in TONS of work. Even ran legit caloric surpluses while running solid programs, and he made very little progress relatively. He ground it out though. Life is not fair. I will never be in the NBA, but you play the hand you are dealt. We all can improve, but dont be so quick to dismiss others struggle.

agree..

so the term "hardgainer" is subjective to what he or she is trying to achieve based on ones perceptions of others expectations


that's pretty much the way I always saw the classification of body types

[induced_drag]

agree..

so the term "hardgainer" is subjective to what he or she is trying to achieve based on ones perceptions of others expectations

Great way of putting it. It would be very closed minded of me to think everyone's training is wrong, or they dont work hard because they cant lift what I was able to before I even started training. Likewise, the guys who make very little progress for years, 'call out' legit natties as users since they say it is IMPOSSIBLE to make those gains naturally.

I dont know why we all understand this when it comes to height or speed. Yet for some reason, people think we should all function by the same rates of progress in the gym.

But we all can get better for sure, and I believe that mostly, the same rules apply as to what types of stimulus and training work. Just the degree of results may vary in each individual.

[LWW]

Just because someone with natural leverages can excel faster in a lift don’t mean the other person is going to make gains each and everyday.

56 I think your post shows my point, if those guys lifted like we’re training and ate I think that would all make good gains.

[LWW]

I have been gradually working up reps on my dead lift with a medium weight using a double overhand grip.

We’re talking working from 225 x 15 warm up to 290 x 15.

Today I did-
225 x 20 warm up
Took at least 15 minutes rest
265 x 20

First time ever doing something like that with double overhand grip no straps.

My grip had more in me, my lower back was shot.

I can keep going from here week in week out, adding reps and some weight. My arms traps everything got results the body has earned calories.

NO 500 dead lift even needed yet.

If I take newbies with me on this journey, they all see gains IF they continue.

[LWW]

Only in the mind of a simpleton.

You should see how simple it can be-

So go ahead with these two simple sets -
Dead lift conventional style
225 x 20 rest then-
Dead lift 265 x 20

All with a double overhand grip without straps.

Now if this too easy for a specimen of your caliber I suggest to keep adding 20# until you NEED 15-20 minutes of rest from set 1.

You will gain and it’s only TWO sets to include in your routine.

You get hungry though, don’t worry use those calories.

Now let’s see it, please report back!!

[induced_drag]

You should see how simple it can be-

So go ahead with these two simple sets -
Dead lift conventional style
225 x 20 rest then-
Dead lift 265 x 20

All with a double overhand grip without straps.

Now if this too easy for a specimen of your caliber I suggest to keep adding 20# until you NEED 15-20 minutes of rest from set 1.

You will gain and it’s only TWO sets to include in your routine.

You get hungry though, don’t worry use those calories.

Now let’s see it, please report back!!

I utilized high(er) rep deads in my training. When I was at peak of my strength, the only time I would get sore from dead were high rep 405 sets. Think I passed 34 at one time and my limit was just cardio and not strength.


BUT, you have to understand that some people dont respond nearly as well. Everyone can improve, but the rates of adaptation vary just as much as our heights. And yes,...there are those that will barely improve regardless of what they do. And there are people that gain very fast.

I am blessed with a good training response. I came to realize we are not all the same. After 10 years off in the gym, and being isolated for 3 months in a collar (wasting 30 lbs), I made the commitment to get back to training. My goal in that weak condition I was in was I wanted to deadlift 500lbs again.

From the day I was released to train, it took me 11 workouts to hit 500 again. (and that is coming of a pretty severe wasting while I was recovering from a broken neck).

So I recognize that we are not all the same. There are also guys that make me look weak.

My only advice @LWW is realize there are guys out there who can train much harder than you, and eat better and get FAR less progress. I admire your drive. It is awesome really. I dare say inspiring. But dont be so hard on others to claim anyone not making good progress is not trying. Again, as much as I battled w/ ACC, he worked his a$$ off, but in the end, made very little progress. He never quit though and kept fighting. I think he may have eventually quit, but the point is we all are equipped with a different response.

[LWW]

I utilized high(er) rep deads in my training. When I was at peak of my strength, the only time I would get sore from dead were high rep 405 sets. Think I passed 34 at one time and my limit was just cardio and not strength.


BUT, you have to understand that some people dont respond nearly as well. Everyone can improve, but the rates of adaptation vary just as much as our heights. And yes,...there are those that will barely improve regardless of what they do. And there are people that gain very fast.

I am blessed with a good training response. I came to realize we are not all the same. After 10 years off in the gym, and being isolated for 3 months in a collar (wasting 30 lbs), I made the commitment to get back to training. My goal in that weak condition I was in was I wanted to deadlift 500lbs again.

From the day I was released to train, it took me 11 workouts to hit 500 again. (and that is coming of a pretty severe wasting while I was recovering from a broken neck).

So I recognize that we are not all the same. There are also guys that make me look weak.

My only advice @LWW is realize there are guys out there who can train much harder than you, and eat better and get FAR less progress. I admire your drive. It is awesome really. I dare say inspiring. But dont be so hard on others to claim anyone not making good progress is not trying. Again, as much as I battled w/ ACC, he worked his a$$ off, but in the end, made very little progress. He never quit though and kept fighting. I think he may have eventually quit, but the point is we all are equipped with a different response.

Great stuff, you are more advanced and let me say many are confusing advanced platos with beginner gains being hardgainer.

But I’d like to say your 405 for 30 + is awesome however you should try it using no straps, no touch and go, no mixed grip. I’m talking pure double overhand grip, I’ve been telling people for too long that straps and touch and go DO NOT recruit more muscle crontraction and force as double overhand grip, believe and see yourself more, a lot more get worked......

Also one of the leanest most muscular men I’ve EVER seen did lots of neck work, he could dead lift with mixed grip 500 x 15, and he did 315 neck raises plus 100 reppers neck raises with lighter weight, the man was close to Bill Goldberg with that neck......

[induced_drag]

Great stuff, you are more advanced and let me say many are confusing advanced platos with beginner gains being hardgainer.

But I’d like to say your 405 for 30 + is awesome however you should try it using no straps, no touch and go, no mixed grip. I’m talking pure double overhand grip, I’ve been telling people for too long that straps and touch and go DO NOT recruit more muscle crontraction and force as double overhand grip, believe and see yourself more, a lot more get worked......

Also one of the leanest most muscular men I’ve EVER seen did lots of neck work, he could dead lift with mixed grip 500 x 15, and he did 315 neck raises plus 100 reppers neck raises with lighter weight, the man was close to Bill Goldberg with that neck......

LWW I disagree about strapless. If I wanted to work grip, I would do grip training. For me, with heavy weight, anything over 3 reps will start to tear my callouses. Really heavy, even had 2 reps do it. The shock of the loading and unloading.

I do believe straps and DOH is the best way. Unless of course you can grip it which is awesome. Also I believe that t&g have their place in training. Keeping the muscle under tension allows you to really 'get to' it. BOTH have their place, but I LOVE(d) t&g work. Just not something one would use to accurately measure strength of a true DEAD lift.

Most I ever did true stop was 585x 7 and 605x4. Both those were strapped. Even mixed I would tear my hands at those weights trying to 'rep' even if I could hold it.
I had zero issue every holding with mixed. I would just switch to doing it with singles a few weeks out from comp.

Kinda feel like a loser posting a "I used to lift" vid...but fuk it.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Life in general is a bell curve. There is the bulk in the middle and then the outer ends of the spectrum.

Came in to post this. The good news is that everyone benefits from getting stronger and staying active.

[LWW]

LWW I disagree about strapless. If I wanted to work grip, I would do grip training. For me, with heavy weight, anything over 3 reps will start to tear my callouses. Really heavy, even had 2 reps do it. The shock of the loading and unloading.

I do believe straps and DOH is the best way. Unless of course you can grip it which is awesome. Also I believe that t&g have their place in training. Keeping the muscle under tension allows you to really 'get to' it. BOTH have their place, but I LOVE(d) t&g work. Just not something one would use to accurately measure strength of a true DEAD lift.

Most I ever did true stop was 585x 7 and 605x4. Both those were strapped. Even mixed I would tear my hands at those weights trying to 'rep' even if I could hold it.
I had zero issue every holding with mixed. I would just switch to doing it with singles a few weeks out from comp.

Kinda feel like a loser posting a "I used to lift" vid...but fuk it.

Here is the area you are missing me on, I agree with all of this, what I’m saying is to use a LIGHT weight for double overhand strapless for higher reps, like very close to failure.

Take myself for example, I can dho strapless 365 for only a couple, I won’t do that. I used 100# lighter.

Believe me, when you strap up a weight you get for 30 and tap and go, both the straps and tap and go do nothing for building muscle.

Strapless double overhand for high reps near failure target more CNS, more muscle fiber.

[joewattie]

Very much indeed are 'hard gainers'. Life in general is a bell curve. There is the bulk in the middle and then the outer ends of the spectrum.

With over 20 years in the gym, I have seen people who have worked harder and ate better for years, and made only fractions of the progress I was able to make in months. I have also seen people who make me look like a puny weakling while all they at was big macs and still stayed at 8%bf.

The key is we all can become better versions of ourselves.

I agree. I like what you said and how you said it. (Life is a bell shaped curve :-)

I sometimes compare it to a thee legged stool ;

Leg 1 - Nature (genetics).
Leg 2 - Nurture (training techniques, rest, nutrition).
Leg 3 - Luck (e.g., exposure to good training techniques, a lifestyle that allows you to squeeze in training, accident/injury free, etc.)

[NorwichGrad]

Everything starts in the head. People who are mentally weak quit. The military is prime example.

Same in training.

But what’s nice about the new woke society is that if a dood is mentally weak he can just pretend to be a chic and win. Just ask the swimmer gold medalist.

So a dood who thinks he’s a hardgainer can simply pretend he’s a chic. Problem solved.

[ChazWood]

Everything starts in the head. People who are mentally weak quit. The military is prime example.

Same in training.

But what’s nice about the new woke society is that if a dood is mentally weak he can just pretend to be a chic and win. Just ask the swimmer gold medalist.

So a dood who thinks he’s a hardgainer can simply pretend he’s a chic. Problem solved.

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