Cholesterol

[TonyM78]

This is something I don't see talked about much and I was hoping someone had some information to share. I know we've been told for ages to watch our cholesterol, limit saturated fat intake, etc. I remember reading years ago that dietary cholesterol can actually help with natural testosterone levels. I don't know if there's any truth to that. Anyway I've been eating a lot of eggs or just mixing 2 or 3 eggs in with my protein supplement for a quick meal on the go. My friend made a comment today about 'aren't eggs high in cholesterol'? I didn't really know how to answer him because I don't know enough on the subject to really speak on it. I do try to get a good balance of polyunsaturated, monounsaturated and saturated fats although I'm probably a lot higher in the saturated, and again I eat or drink a lot of eggs, about 4 a day or more. Last week I actually grubbed on a dozen over easy eggs at a diner lol. My caloric intake is still slightly below maintenance, however. So my question is - does this pose any health concerns for someone who works out 3-4 days per week?

[Heisman2]

There's lots of individual variability. If I were you I'd get my cholesterol levels checked while eating all of the eggs and see if they are high. If so, then decrease your egg intake for 4 weeks and get your levels rechecked.

[AdamWW]

What are the three types of cholesterole ?
There are three types of cholesterole descibe below
1.Low-Density Lipoprotein or Bad Cholesterol ( Plaque Builder.) ...
2.High-Density Lipoprotein or Good Cholesterol (The Bad Cholesterol Eater.) ...
3.Triglycerides (Blood Fats.) Lp(a) Cholesterol.

You listed Lp(a) with triglycerides... that's not the same thing...

[Errorproxy]

diet cholesterol =/= blood cholesterol

Cholesterol is a precursor to testosterone. It is made in the liver. If you eat more of it the liver will make less of it. If you eat too much you will poop it out.

LDL is not "bad". Oxidized LDL is bad. This causes plaque build up which leads to cardiovascular disease.

LDL measurements without context doesn't show anything. Get a coronary calcium scan to check how much plaque build up you have.

Some research also suggests apoB apoA ratio is a better indicator of heart health.

[AdamWW]

diet cholesterol =/= blood cholesterol

Cholesterol is a precursor to testosterone. It is made in the liver. If you eat more of it the liver will make less of it. If you eat too much you will poop it out.

LDL is not "bad". Oxidized LDL is bad. This causes plaque build up which leads to cardiovascular disease.

LDL measurements without context doesn't show anything. Get a coronary calcium scan to check how much plaque build up you have.

Some research also suggests apoB apoA ratio is a better indicator of heart health.

I think you're exaggerating a couple of things.

dietary cholesterol may not impact blood cholesterol as much as Saturated or Trans fats, but it has an impact for nearly every person... I can't remember the exact number, but something around 10% of your total cholesterol is usually from your diet... the rest is endogenous production.

But, there are some people who are hyper-responders, or even just higher than average responders, whose serum cholesterol can go up slightly more or even WAY more than that; it depends.

Second, just because 'oxidized LDL' is more concerning that 'total LDL' doesn't make 'total LDL' a non-issue. In order to get oxidized LDL, you need LDL... so a higher total LDL has an increased risk of higher oxidized LDL... this is all about mitigating risk at the end of the day.

Saying 'LDL isn't a problem, oxidized LDL is a problem' is like saying "a gas leak isn't a problem, but a gas leak with a lit match in the room is a problem"... they're both problems.

Next, coronary calcium score is a VERY bad metric for heart health in almost everyone. As far as I know, almost all people have a calcium score outside the range of concern, so using this isn't nearly as helpful. Calcium score is important if you ALREADY HAVE an issue, but otherwise, you don't need a high calcium score to flag someone for heart risk... at all.

[Errorproxy]

Higher LDL doesn't increase oxidized LDL. Oxidizing LDL increases oxidized LDL. Free radicals.

LDL gives energy to your muscles and is a precursor to testosterone. Exercises increases both of these things.

Next, coronary calcium score is a VERY bad metric for heart health in almost everyone. As far as I know, almost all people have a calcium score outside the range of concern, so using this isn't nearly as helpful. Calcium score is important if you ALREADY HAVE an issue, but otherwise, you don't need a high calcium score to flag someone for heart risk... at all.

Source?

[AdamWW]

Higher LDL doesn't increase oxidized LDL. Oxidizing LDL increases oxidized LDL. Free radicals.

LDL gives energy to your muscles and is a precursor to testosterone. Exercises increases both of these things.


Source?

Having MORE LDL increases the potential for partical oxidation.. that's simple math...

And im sorry but there is no reason to believe LDL fuels muscles MORE if you have more of it... nor that having more LDL to raise test levels makes you stronger. ZERO evidence for that. Please provide a source... all you're doing is trying to get from A to Z without going from B to Y and everything in between... the body doesn't work that way, at all.

As far as calcium scores go, I suggest reading this: https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart...a-calcium-scan

[EiFit91]

Some research also suggests apoB apoA ratio is a better indicator of heart health.

This is what my GP tells me too.

But I think the evidence for a clear link between overall LDL level and heart disease is very strong.

What Heisman2 said is what you should do IMO, a lot of individual variation on this stuff

[AdamWW]

This is what my GP tells me too.

But I think this is based on just a single study by Maria Fernandez and some others whose names I have forgotten in a publication in the Journal of Nutrition, and I think Fernandez is funded by the "American Egg Board". That doesn't itself indicate the study is bad though but there's probably on average a link between industry funding and finding favorable results.

+ I think the evidence for a clear link between overall LDL level and heart disease is very strong

What Heisman2 said is what you should do IMO, a lot of individual variation on this stuff

Lp(a) is a good test too.

Lp(a) isn’t impacted almost at all by diet or lifestyle, it’s almost 100% genetic, but has a very high association with heart disease risk. You can usually check it once and never check it again, just to see where you stand. I had mine checked recently.

[EiFit91]

Lp(a) is a good test too.

Lp(a) isn’t impacted almost at all by diet or lifestyle, it’s almost 100% genetic, but has a very high association with heart disease risk. You can usually check it once and never check it again, just to see where you stand. I had mine checked recently.

Will probably get my cholesterol checked soon, for the first time in my life. Maybe stupid of me not to have done it before, but both my parents eat like crap and have good levels.

I think I remembered the above wrong so will edit it away, I think that study is one on how eggs impacts the LDL particle profile and there's other work on the statement that Errorproxy made...

[AdamWW]

Will probably get my cholesterol checked soon, for the first time in my life. Maybe stupid of me not to have done it before, but both my parents eat like crap and have good levels.

I think I remembered the above wrong so will edit it away, I think that study is one on how eggs impacts the LDL particle profile and there's other work on the statement that Errorproxy made...

Yeah the best idea is to just get checked to know for sure.

I went kind of crazy and got a very big panel:

LDL
HDL
Triglycerides
Lp(a)
Apo-A1
Apo-B
C-reactive protein


Was really happy with all my numbers

[EiFit91]

Yeah the best idea is to just get checked to know for sure.

I went kind of crazy and got a very big panel:

LDL
HDL
Triglycerides
Lp(a)
Apo-A1
Apo-B
C-reactive protein


Was really happy with all my numbers

That's good!

I just "worry about worrying" if that makes any sense lol

Worry enough about stuff, if I start getting my cholesterol checked that's just one more thing to worry about...

[Errorproxy]

Having MORE LDL increases the potential for partical oxidation.. that's simple math...

And im sorry but there is no reason to believe LDL fuels muscles MORE if you have more of it... nor that having more LDL to raise test levels makes you stronger. ZERO evidence for that. Please provide a source... all you're doing is trying to get from A to Z without going from B to Y and everything in between... the body doesn't work that way, at all.

As far as calcium scores go, I suggest reading this:

Look up limiting reagent.

LDL transports energy in the form of esterified cholesterol: jcp.bmj.com/content/jclinpath/s1-5/1/1.full.pdf
LDL is a precursor to testosterone: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2890697/

Why do you think statins lower testosterone and decrease muscle mass, cause muscle pain?

The CDC in the 70s had a recommended LDL around 1000 mg/dl. After statins were invented the CDC recommended LDL went down year after year all the way down to 100 mg/dl today. Today statins make pharmaceuticals more than 14 billion a year yet heart disease has been increasing every year. Heart disease was still the #1 killer in the US last year. To put this in perspective, COVID (with comorbidities) was #3.

Ask yourself, if you could just lower LDL and not get heart attacks and statins are this widely prescribed making pharma 14b a year why is heart disease still rising?

[AdamWW]

That's good!

I just "worry about worrying" if that makes any sense lol

Worry enough about stuff, if I start getting my cholesterol checked that's just one more thing to worry about...

lol bro, come on… that’s a terrible reason to not check it..

That’s like sleeping with a bunch of loose women and not getting an STD test because you don’t wanna know.

[AdamWW]

Look up limiting reagent.

LDL transports energy in the form of esterified cholesterol: jcp bmj com / content / jclinpath / s1-5 / 1 / 1 full pdf

LDL is a precursor to testosterone: ncbi nlm nih gov / pmc / articles / PMC2890697 /

Why do you think statins lower testosterone and decrease muscle mass, cause muscle pain?

The CDC in the 70s had a recommended LDL around 1000 mg/dl. After statins were invented the CDC recommended LDL went down year after year all the way down to 100 mg/dl today. Today statins make pharmaceuticals more than 14 billion a year yet heart disease has been increasing every year. Heart disease was still the #1 killer in the US last year. To put this in perspective, COVID (with comorbidities) was #3.

Ask yourself, if you could just lower LDL and not get heart attacks and statins are this widely prescribed making pharma 14b a year why is heart disease still rising?

Dude, you’re not providing actual studies showing the results you’re claiming and you’re not providing meta-analyses or RCT’s

Im not interested in what your intuition tells you about the mechanisms… im interested in actual data.

LDL being a precursor to test says nothing about your serum tests done dietary sources improving muscle growth

You’re still skipping 1000 steps and just arriving at a conclusion that suites your bias

[EiFit91]

lol bro, come on… that’s a terrible reason to not check it..

That’s like sleeping with a bunch of loose women and not getting an STD test because you don’t wanna know.

LOL

inb4 paul and sex jokes

[Errorproxy]

Dude, you’re not providing actual studies showing the results you’re claiming and you’re not providing meta-analyses or RCT’s

Im not interested in what your intuition tells you about the mechanisms… im interested in actual data.

LDL being a precursor to test says nothing about your serum tests done dietary sources improving muscle growth

You’re still skipping 1000 steps and just arriving at a conclusion that suites your bias

Those scientific papers are my intuition?

Actual data like the Harvard web page you sent me with no data in it?

I never said anything about muscle growth.

Ok then if lowering LDL prevents problems with the heart then just take statins. Problem solved.

[air2fakie]

Am I the only one who thinks every cholesterol thread probably makes the issue more confusing for anyone interested in the topic?

[AdamWW]

Those scientific papers are my intuition?

Actual data like the Harvard web page you sent me with no data in it?

I never said anything about muscle growth.

Ok then if lowering LDL prevents problems with the heart then just take statins. Problem solved.

Check post 7 where you said LDL gives your muscles energy.

And sorry but statins have their own issues.

The studies you provided don’t prove the points you made, that is what I’m saying.

You can cite irrelevant studies all you want, it doesn’t help your point.

High LDL is the primary risk factor for atherosclerosis and a major risk factor for all heart disease, as well as just mortality in general.

I’m not saying it’s the ONLY number of importance, but it’s the main one.

[Errorproxy]

Check post 7 where you said LDL gives your muscles energy.

And sorry but statins have their own issues.

The studies you provided don’t prove the points you made, that is what I’m saying.

You can cite irrelevant studies all you want, it doesn’t help your point.

High LDL is the primary risk factor for atherosclerosis and a major risk factor for all heart disease, as well as just mortality in general.

I’m not saying it’s the ONLY number of importance, but it’s the main one.

Muscle growth =/= energy for muscles.

If you actually read it you'd realize that they're relevant.

[EliKoehn]

Am I the only one who thinks every cholesterol thread probably makes the issue more confusing for anyone interested in the topic?

I am actually a bit lost, honestly.

[AdamWW]

If you actually read it you'd realize that they're relevant.

I did, and it isn't...

Let's break down your claims 1x1

1. "diet cholesterol =/= blood cholesterol" >> as I stated, there IS an impact... in almost all cases.

2. "Cholesterol is a precursor to testosterone. It is made in the liver. If you eat more of it the liver will make less of it. If you eat too much you will poop it out."
OK, who cares? You may produce LESS, but it depends on how much you're eating in terms of how much your serum will rise... but it usually DOES rise to some degree.

3. "LDL is not "bad". Oxidized LDL is bad. This causes plaque build up which leads to cardiovascular disease."
I've already gone over this... LDL is a risk factor... period.

4. "LDL measurements without context doesn't show anything. Get a coronary calcium scan to check how much plaque build up you have."
You're implying a calcium score is of higher value than understanding LDL, which is COMPLETELY backward. You can have a heart attack with a ZERO calcium score....



What in the world does the information you provided in those links do to support your claims here?
Nothing.

[AdamWW]

Just to add, my opinion is that a comprehensive lipid panel including the items I mentioned in addition to particle size, combined with something like a Cardiac fMRI and echocardiogram are probably the best collections of tests to assess your heat health from multiple angles.

[EiFit91]

Just to add, my opinion is that a comprehensive lipid panel including the items I mentioned in addition to particle size, combined with something like a Cardiac fMRI and echocardiogram are probably the best collections of tests to assess your heat health from multiple angles.

Still going to get mine checked eventually, just wanted to throw this out there:

https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7191.full.pdf+html

"Conclusions General health checks did not reduce morbidity or mortality, neither overall nor for cardiovascular or cancer causes, although they increased the number of new diagnoses. Important harmful outcomes were often not studied or reported."

I think this at least suggests that healthy individuals don't have a big reason to get their health checked constantly. They don't find an effect on "worry" though so I guess one could argue this should be a preference thing, some enjoy getting their health checked and others don't

[Mrpb]

Still going to get mine checked eventually, just wanted to throw this out there:

https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7191.full.pdf+html

"Conclusions General health checks did not reduce morbidity or mortality, neither overall nor for cardiovascular or cancer causes, although they increased the number of new diagnoses. Important harmful outcomes were often not studied or reported."

Hi. That conclusion applies to the group level. The large majority of people that are told that they have high cholesterol don't know what changes to make and even less people will be able to successfully make those changes. You're not like the average person because if you would find out you have high cholesterol I bet you would be able to make the right changes. If you can it will likely improve your health outcomes.

[Mrpb]

This is something I don't see talked about much and I was hoping someone had some information to share. I know we've been told for ages to watch our cholesterol, limit saturated fat intake, etc. I remember reading years ago that dietary cholesterol can actually help with natural testosterone levels. I don't know if there's any truth to that. Anyway I've been eating a lot of eggs or just mixing 2 or 3 eggs in with my protein supplement for a quick meal on the go. My friend made a comment today about 'aren't eggs high in cholesterol'? I didn't really know how to answer him because I don't know enough on the subject to really speak on it. I do try to get a good balance of polyunsaturated, monounsaturated and saturated fats although I'm probably a lot higher in the saturated, and again I eat or drink a lot of eggs, about 4 a day or more. Last week I actually grubbed on a dozen over easy eggs at a diner lol. My caloric intake is still slightly below maintenance, however. So my question is - does this pose any health concerns for someone who works out 3-4 days per week?

Like Heisman mentioned the only way to know how it affects your cholesterol is to get tested.

But raw eggs in a protein shake? I can't imagine it improves the taste. And besides the potential risk of cholesterol there's also the small risk of salmonella.

[EiFit91]

Hi. That conclusion applies to the group level. The large majority of people that are told that they have high cholesterol don't know what changes to make and even less people will be able to successfully make those changes. You're not like the average person because if you would find out you have high cholesterol I bet you would be able to make the right changes. If you can it will likely improve your health outcomes.

Good point!

I knew I'd eventually manage to lure you back