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  1. #1
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Cluster set to save time in the gym?

    https://youtu.be/bFaVi_PU3us

    No one likes being waited on or losing their seat when they go get water. This method sound believable. Thoughts?
    Schoenfeld et al., 2016 is one study that says more rest is helpful. I'll have to read the details to see if consensus can be found.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26605807/ 1 minute vs 3 minutes rest, everything else kept the same except the 3 minute group of course did more reps since to failure and more rested.


    https://youtu.be/NL4NwC1SsLY
    Same youtuber says in his other video that longer rests are better. Neither video addresses the other and why it is better or non conflicting.



    Cliffs:
    Do a set as close to failure as you normally would.
    Rack the weight.
    Take 12 breaths while standing or shaking it out, and guarding your seat of course.
    Then do some more reps, again close to failure. Hopefully you do half as many that time.
    Rest another 12, repeat, counting each as a set.



    The idea that the last 5 reps of a set matter the most for muscle building. So staying close to failure will maybe be as good as resting up and doing full sets.




    My take on this:

    This proposal, myo sets, makes me question what really stimulates muscle growth and what really tears muscle fibers.

    This technique looks like a more extreme version of taking short breaks between sets, which has been found to reduce growth, not increase it. I suspect that the first several reps do matter, but they matter more if you actually get close to failure.

    I was told that tension till failure, not tears, is what causes growth, and that tears slow and limit recovery.

    This kind of set is going past failure, but what does it really mean to go past failure? How does that cause more tears, and how do cluster sets fit in?

    I'm starting to think that 6 second max effort reps are what cause tears, maybe.





    As for seemjngly conflicting information out there:


    I read web pages claim that numerius studies found that time under tension per set is what matters, with 30-70 seconds per set. I've also read sites that quote several studies finding that time under tension does not matter, only going to near failure does, and stating time under tension is a myth and that slowing down reps reduces strength gains and can reduce size gains if cut off at 45 or 60 seconds instead of near failure.


    Some studies found that 2 half sets grew less muscle than 1 full set, although I've been told here that other studies contradict that.


    I wonder if the first several reps are really that important. I enjoy doing the first several reps, but I don't like the long wait between sets.

    I wonder if the total number of reps still counts, but that short rests are ok as long as the total reps stay the same.

    This sounds more psychologically tiring but could save time in the gym.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-25-2021 at 09:53 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    No one likes being waited on or losing their seat when they go get water. This method sound believable. Thoughts?
    If you leave a towel or bag at a station while you step away for 30 seconds to fill up a water bottle and someone steals your spot, you kindly tell them you were using it, and depending on their response you either ask them if they’d like to work in or throw them off.
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  3. #3
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/F..._Muscle.3.aspx


    That is the full text of the 1 minute vs 3 minute rest study. I'll read it tomorrow.



    As for 3 sets vs 1 primer and 2 half myo, I suspect 3 full sets would grow more muscle. Or at least is more intense. The question though is whether the extra growth is enough to justify the extra time, and whether joints initially keep up better with the myo. Also, someone could add in one extra myo to maybe level the difference.

    4 half myo without primer would very likely build less muscle than primer plus 2 half. If they are even close, the 4 halves would sure be easier. Very low intensity. I understand not needing maximum, but almost no challenge surely would not grow anything.






    Well, I read the text tonight anyway.
    3 minute rest grows 2x as much muscle as 1 minute rest in this well done study.

    Also, 2 minutes grows as much as 5 in another study.

    And senior citizens do at least as well with 1 minute vs 4.



    So, if you rest less than 2 minutes between sets, you are taking a risk of missing out on growth. Also, 3 minutes might be a peak between 2 and 5.

    Myo sets might work well enough, but maybe not.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-25-2021 at 10:41 PM.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Also, they did RPE 10 for every set. I bet that made the extra rest count more.

    Also, 2 people dropped out of the 23 person study, and the remainder had 86% attendance for the 8 weeks.

    Too intense for some?



    ........


    So both groups did the same number of "effective reps", but the few extra "primer" reps doubled the muscle growth.



    .....


    Also, 7 exercises must have hit some muscles twice. And 3 sets per exercise, all to form failure. And plenty of gains. Well, I don't know how this compares. They are experienced lifters.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-25-2021 at 10:54 PM.
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    It doesn't matter which is hypothetically more optimal if you have time limit.

    If you want to Save time or Do more work in the same time. Do them.

    Bare in mind Studies are at best 8weeks long. That's essentially nothing in the grand scheme and can only get an indication of what is really happening.

    Myo reps are great. I like them for small lifts and stuff I don't like doing. Gets them over and down with faster.

    https://tinyurl.com/4u59nuuy link to borge's original myorep work
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    If you're going to read the literature at least read the most recent reviews on the topic. Likely more informative than reading specific studies.

    https://www.scielo.br/j/rbce/a/Y3tM9...g5wCG/?lang=en
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...79-021-01455-4 - not open access but makes a decent case for elderly populations using cluster sets
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33475986/ - also not open access but you can at least read the abstract

    Figures 1 and 2 of that 3rd link show different ways to set up cluster sets if you are interested.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    If you're going to read the literature at least read the most recent reviews on the topic. Likely more informative than reading specific studies.

    https://www.scielo.br/j/rbce/a/Y3tM9...g5wCG/?lang=en
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...79-021-01455-4 - not open access but makes a decent case for elderly populations using cluster sets
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33475986/ - also not open access but you can at least read the abstract

    Figures 1 and 2 of that 3rd link show different ways to set up cluster sets if you are interested.
    Thank you! I'm preserving that in a quote. Always says must spread more reputation. I guess it now requires more than 20 people.


    I'm just trying to figure out what really stimulates muscle growth, and what causes tearing or cns fatiguing disproportionate to the extra stimulus.

    I wonder if since creatine gives muscles more energy to do more reps, if it can cause faster growth. I've not seen a study that compared creatine to non creatine and then washed out the creatine to see the net difference. Surely extra tearing could happen too.
    Creatine would only help sets lasting 20-30 seconds. My 60 second sets would just fall short at the same time from the metabolic byproducts. Maybe the spent creatine would not be as bad as the lactic acid.



    ---- the Access Denied error just deleted my detailed post. Annoying.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-26-2021 at 10:09 AM.
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  8. #8
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    It doesn't matter which is hypothetically more optimal if you have time limit.

    If you want to Save time or Do more work in the same time. Do them.

    Bare in mind Studies are at best 8weeks long. That's essentially nothing in the grand scheme and can only get an indication of what is really happening.

    Myo reps are great. I like them for small lifts and stuff I don't like doing. Gets them over and down with faster.

    https://tinyurl.com/4u59nuuy link to borge's original myorep work
    I don't have hard time constraints, but I do have other stuff I'd like to do. I also feel guilty when people want to use my machine when I'm resting.
    Also, I don't like morning carb loading and would like to eat a mix of fats. Getting the same stimulous from fewer reps would require less sugar.



    Good point about the study only being 8 weeks and 21 people. A 2x difference in gains is still big.



    The study used the 8-12 rep range, which is not super far from the strength range. That might be why 3 minutes did better than 1 minute. I wonder if I stick to 16-25 reps if I'll benefit from longer rests too. With longer sets, the myo reps should save more time.
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  9. #9
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Where I see possible time savings is that how many reps you can do in the next set is not linear with rest time.

    If actual reps are equated, I would think the myo sets would be at least as stimulatory, provided they always end close to failure and are not lazy breaks. I don't know how much extra tearing would happen though, and wish Jeff Nippard hard evidence of that theory.

    If the exhausted reps are more stimulatory, then a bit fewer might be needed, though not to the point of calling each myo set a set.

    The 2016 study seemed to show an exponential stimulous from time under tension in a set. Almost hard to believe that 15% more reps could double the growth.

    I wonder if going to full failure is more a strain on the cns than a muscle tearing issue.


    I accept any and all studies posted on the issue.
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  10. #10
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    The Access Denied error is deleting my posts, so I'll be fast.

    None of the studies posted looked at clusters that each went to near failure. All were what I call lazy rests.

    As for the 2016 study showing too big an improvement from 3 minutes, 2x, it makes sense if the fewer reps after 60 seconds are seen as really RPE 7, compared to what could have been done. If true, I would predict creatine to build bigger gains that last after washout, and I'd expect myo sets to failure to not help much.

    The review of studies only looked from mile high. It did not compare muscle gains between the subjects of different studies, nor could it since I doubt training ages were tested well enough or reported, and would have confounded the results.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-26-2021 at 10:19 AM.
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  11. #11
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    https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a35032638/myo-reps/



    That there describes the myo reps I'm referring to.

    I guess I can do my own study with cross over. Myself, 4 week cycles, myo sets vs 3 well rested sets, two cycles each with deloads, and see which one increases my reps or strength fastest.




    I'm open to suggestions for study design.

    Weight likely won't climb fast enough to test well, and size will take too long, so increases in reps will be what I look at mostly. Also, if one does worse than the other, I will try 1 fewer myo-reps and 1 more.

    As for going all the way to failure, regardless of speed of strength increase, injury prevention is more important. It is important to be able to concentrate on holding the weight right and not be too distracted by the failing target muscle.

    I read that fast concentric lifts build strength faster but also tend to lead to more injuries. Controlled, non explosive reps may be better for some people in the long run. The personal trainer exam answer of 2-0-2 is what I'll shoot for.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-26-2021 at 12:36 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    One Set Training

    This primarily works for novice/beginners.

    Multiple Set Training

    Research and decades of empirical data have demonstrated Multiple Set Training is one of the keys to optimizing Muscle Mass, Strength, Power, Speed., etc.


    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Schoenfeld et al., 2016 is one study that says more rest is helpful. I'll have to read the details to see if consensus can be found.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26605807/ 1 minute vs 3 minutes rest, everything else kept the same except the 3 minute group of course did more reps since to failure and more rested.


    https://youtu.be/NL4NwC1SsLY
    Same youtuber says in his other video that longer rests are better. Neither video addresses the other and why it is better or non conflicting.
    Long Rest Periods Between Sets

    Hypertrophy Training Sets of 8 Repetitions plus with long rest periods between sets allow you to use heavier load that will increase muscle mass.

    Short Rest Periods Between Sets

    However, research shows that one of the keys to increasing Muscle Mass Lactate (not Lactic Acid).

    Lactate build up is produce with short rest periods between sets.

    Lactate trigger the downstream increase of Growth Hormone, which increases Muscle Mass.

    The build up of Lactate with short rest periods traps blood in the muscles producing "The Burn" and "The Pump".

    As Arnold stated, "You can grow without "The Burn".

    This is an example of Hypertrophy Short Rest Period between Set Training...


    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    [url]Cliffs:
    Do a set as close to failure as you normally would.
    Rack the weight.
    Take 12 breaths while standing or shaking it out, and guarding your seat of course.
    Then do some more reps, again close to failure. Hopefully you do half as many that time.
    Rest another 12, repeat, counting each as a set.
    Three Mechanisms of Muscle Growth

    Schoenfeld's research determined...

    1) Mechanical Tension

    This means Maximum Strength Training with Heavy Load, Long Rest Periods and Low Repetitions.

    2) Metabolic Stress

    This involve flooding the muscle with Lactate; "The Pump" and "The Burn".

    3) Muscle Damage

    Pushing the muscles to failure or near failure.

    Also, performing Full Range Movements; Ass to Grass Squats, Dumbbell Bench Presses (which allow the Pecs to be fully stretched), etc.

    This is know as a "Loaded Stretch". It produces Muscle Damage, which triggers muscle growth.

    Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

    The issue with Traditional Hypertrophy Training is the Muscle Mass is increased at the expense in a decrease in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

    Research by Dr Jonathan Oliver determined that Cluster Set Perform explosively were able to Increase Muscle Mass while maintaining and/or increasing Strength.

    While Traditional Hypertrophy Training produce a greater increase in Muscle Mass, Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training was a close second.

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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    If you're going to read the literature at least read the most recent reviews on the topic. Likely more informative than reading specific studies.

    https://www.scielo.br/j/rbce/a/Y3tM9...g5wCG/?lang=en
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...79-021-01455-4 - not open access but makes a decent case for elderly populations using cluster sets
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33475986/ - also not open access but you can at least read the abstract

    Figures 1 and 2 of that 3rd link show different ways to set up cluster sets if you are interested.
    Great information.

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    Originally Posted by kennycroxdale View Post

    ...
    Muscle Mass Lactate (not Lactic Acid).

    Lactate build up is produce with short rest periods between sets.

    Lactate trigger the downstream increase of Growth Hormone, which increases Muscle Mass.

    The build up of Lactate with short rest periods traps blood in the muscles producing "The Burn" and "The Pump".

    As Arnold stated, "You can grow without "The Burn".
    ...
    I need to add some 10 minute high intensity cardio sessions then, in addition to my weight lifting and low intensity fat burn. Maybe the growth hormone will help my joints.
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    I need to add some 10 minute high intensity cardio sessions then, in addition to my weight lifting and low intensity fat burn. Maybe the growth hormone will help my joints.
    3 Minute High Intensity Interval Training
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...8#Types-of-HIT

    I am a proponent of this HIIT Method.

    It is brutal, quick and effective.

    Low Intensity Fat Burn

    Low intensity does very little to burn fat.

    The lowest and longest aerobics is sleep.

    If you hibernate and sleep for a few month like a bear, you will lose body fat. l

    Excess Post Oxygen Consumption

    HIIT Training elicits this effect.

    You essentially over charge your "Metabolic Credit Card" and have to pay it back with interest.

    In other words, after HIIT, you metabolic rate remains elevated burning calories for hour after your workout.

    Fat/Weight Loss

    The key to fat/weight loss is diet.

    Exercise does really do that much for weight loss.

    Exercises benefits main benefits are that it preserves muscle mass with fat/weight loss programs. It also increases Insulin Sensitivity, which ensure less body fat is gained.

    ]b]Joints]/b]

    1) Isometric is the most effective for developing connective tissue in your joints.

    2) Collagen improves connective tissue in you joints. Jello is a good source of collagen.

    3) Glucosamine is good for joint issues.

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    I learned of another study where two groups lifted a heavy weight for 18 reps. One group did 3 sets of 6, with 90 second rests between.. The other did failure sets separated by 20 second rests, as many failure sets as needed to hit 18 reps total. Both groups grew the same amount of muscle.


    Clearly the second group worked much harder. I think the second group was on the other side of the volume growth curve. Optimal would have been in between the 2. That is the only explanation I see for all these different results.


    Back to the groups that did failure sets and 60 second rests vs 3 minutes:
    Rest does not hurt hypertrophy. Doing fewer reps does. These were experienced lifters, and they especially benefited from the extra reps.


    As for some groups doing non failure cluster sets and getting the same or less growth as the group doing it all at once, it depends on where that intensity falls on the volume vs growth curve. Many tests have groups on both sides getting the same results.


    In my case, if I want to save time with myo reps, I will count them as less than full sets, but more than total reps. And I'll understand I'm entering uncharted territory where I have to find my own best location on the curve.

    I think I'll aim for 1 full set plus 3 approx half sets each to failure, and count that as less than 4 full sets but more than the reps of 2.5 full sets. Hopefully I'll get the same growth as 3 sets in a lot less time.


    This is most important on the double cable chest exercise, where 2 people are waiting for the 2 cables. I can do traditional sets on some of the lower demand equipment.




    ...


    Many people in the gym fail to build muscle for several reasons. Not going close enough to failure, doing too many sets for their fitness level, etc.

    1g protein per pound body mass might be more than needed. But a study tested it against 0.5g per pound and found half as much growth in the lower group. So 0.5g per pound is too low. Those advocating less protein advocate 0.7g, or 0.8 if one wants to be extra safe.
    Last edited by Darkius; 11-30-2021 at 08:02 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Darkius, you seem to read up on a lot of different topics from a lot of different sources. Then you type out your thoughts but it can be hard to follow as you kind of jump between topics and you don't necessarily provide links for where you get your information from.

    Have you considered making a general discussion thread (you can title it "Darkius's discussion thread") where you make one post for whatever you are confused/curious about at the time, provide whatever relevant links you have, and let people address that, prior to then making a subsequent post with the next set of things you are confused or curious about?
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Darkius, you seem to read up on a lot of different topics from a lot of different sources. Then you type out your thoughts but it can be hard to follow as you kind of jump between topics and you don't necessarily provide links for where you get your information from.

    Have you considered making a general discussion thread (you can title it "Darkius's discussion thread") where you make one post for whatever you are confused/curious about at the time, provide whatever relevant links you have, and let people address that, prior to then making a subsequent post with the next set of things you are confused or curious about?
    To be fair to OP, he tends to reply to his own odd Qs with his own odd answers. It's us who end up confused.

    OP, if you do make a general discussion thread, I suggest "After Dark with Darkius".
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    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Darkius, you seem to read up on a lot of different topics from a lot of different sources. Then you type out your thoughts but it can be hard to follow as you kind of jump between topics and you don't necessarily provide links for where you get your information from.

    Have you considered making a general discussion thread (you can title it "Darkius's discussion thread") where you make one post for whatever you are confused/curious about at the time, provide whatever relevant links you have, and let people address that, prior to then making a subsequent post with the next set of things you are confused or curious about?

    I kind of thought this thread was my discussion thread for this topic. But I guess it is true I raised similar questions in the past. I try to stay in one thread. But sometimes if a topic falls a month down to the next page, I forget after contemplating other stuff and then start a new thread.


    As for links, yes, I need to post those. Most are studies shown in youtube videos where the channel host points to and summarizes them. These hosts have so many videos, several being similar. I don't always connect the dots in time to realize which ones will be needed for links in my next post.


    I think I sort of answered my own question though. When different studies investigate highly different effective volumes or intensities, it is not easy to compare different exercise types across the studies, especial if there exists an optimal volume after which returns fall back down.


    I concluded that rest between sets does not hurt hypertrophy and can help it, and that total reps matter, but reps near failure matter more. But landing in ones optimal volume zone matters most. So I think that brings consensus to all the studies. I'll just listen to my body, get near failure, and progressively overload. I think the myo-reps should be fine if the right number are done.
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    Stick to the basics and stop worrying about **** that doesn't matter. That's the best advice I can give you darkius
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