Reply
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Back Volume

  1. #1
    Registered User Xpiro's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2019
    Age: 52
    Posts: 745
    Rep Power: 3728
    Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    Xpiro is offline

    Back Volume

    I do a pretty significant amount of sets for what I count as “back”—29 sets per week—and I’m feeling that I might need to cut down because I’m not doing too hot with pull ups and straight arm pulldowns, and rows might be approaching a standstill. So 29 is a lot, but I’m including all of lats, mid and lower traps, snd upper traps. Should that all be lumped into a single category?

    Also, it should be noted that I hit back 4 days/week, taking care of pull-ups at home and doing pulldown variations on leg days at the gym. With 6 sets of straight arm pulldowns per week at 3 sets per leg day, I’m thinking about scrapping half of those. I’m running ULPPL so it goes Upper (pull ups), Lower (SAPD), rest, pull (pull ups), push, legs (SAPD snd close grip PD). If I got rid of SAPD on lower day, I’m never working back two days in a row, and volume goes down. But then I’m still at 26 sets for back, unless we consider lats/vert pulls their own category, in which case I’m at 12. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Xpiro; 11-25-2021 at 09:37 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 56
    Posts: 2,271
    Rep Power: 9299
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    28 sets (even more) in an 8 day period is certainly doable if you have three days of rest between each 14 set session.

    Otherwise….I’m not sure you’re gonna recover.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2016
    Age: 38
    Posts: 2,387
    Rep Power: 6521
    Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Darkius is offline
    Lats, traps, rhomboids, spinal erectors.

    I treat lower back as a separate group.
    I treat lats and rhomboids as separate groups that overlap depending on the exercise. I do 3 wide grip pulls and 2 lat pull downs 3x per week.
    Traps I'm not sure of, since the fibers change directions as you look up and down it. I'm not even sure how to work traps besides shrugs, with forward leaning being best.


    If a muscle group is not brought near failure during the exercise of another group that is, then it is a supporting group and does not count.

    Biceps are tricky, since they might fail with back, before back, or after. You have to know how close each got.
    Novice lifter who sticks to the basics 3x per week but likes to theorize about improvements while recovering.
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2016
    Age: 38
    Posts: 2,387
    Rep Power: 6521
    Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000) Darkius is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Darkius is offline
    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    28 sets (even more) in an 8 day period is certainly doable if you have three days of rest between each 14 set session.

    Otherwise….I’m not sure you’re gonna recover.
    Depends how long someone built up adding more sets. Not everyone can just dive in and do that. I'd need at least 1 more day to recover, and would still think it was more than optimal.
    Novice lifter who sticks to the basics 3x per week but likes to theorize about improvements while recovering.
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Registered User Xpiro's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2019
    Age: 52
    Posts: 745
    Rep Power: 3728
    Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    Xpiro is offline
    @coach problem is I can only get to the gum 2 days/week for legs, so I do basically all of my upper body stuff at home, and of course pulldowns are only possible at the gym (pullovers not possible due to two shoulder impingements). So there’s not a lot of room for recovery there.

    I guess I could do more sets of pulldowns on leg day 2 so I can maintain volume while getting rid of them on leg day 1, but even then, I’m still working back 3 days/week and only have a single 72 hour stretch between sets within a week and two 48 hour stretches.

    I could do more sets of pull-ups at home (like, a lot) and just nix pulldowns altogether, but I’d rather not. Close grip (unilateral) pulldowns are improving smoothly, even. And I’m struggling but damn I love me some straight arms.

    Tl;dr more than one 72 hour rest windows impossible with my exercise choices due to equipment limitations....

    @jax for traps I do barbell shrugs and incline DB Kelso shrugs.

    Low back didn’t even cross my mind tbh, I’ve injured it so many times over the years the fact that I can still deadlift at all is a miracle. I’ve indefinitely disposed of barbell rows (subbed Pendlays) and low bar squats (subbed fronts and high bar). I just recovered from a bad flare up and don’t intend to **** with adding sets there... like... ever.

    As for how long it took me to build up to back sets, if I’m not including the aforementioned trap stuff, I started with (well anyway when I started Viking’s, before stripping the program down to its skeleton and remodeling and personalizing it) and have maintained this volume for a couple of years. I’ve always tiptoed around adding back volume because it always seemed like a lot already and I didn’t want to fall into overkill. Trap sets came along like a year ago and I didn’t notice any intrusion on my general back work.
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 56
    Posts: 2,271
    Rep Power: 9299
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by Xpiro View Post
    @coach problem is I can only get to the gum 2 days/week for legs, so I do basically all of my upper body stuff at home, and of course pulldowns are only possible at the gym (pullovers not possible due to two shoulder impingements). So there’s not a lot of room for recovery there.

    I guess I could do more sets of pulldowns on leg day 2 so I can maintain volume while getting rid of them on leg day 1, but even then, I’m still working back 3 days/week and only have a single 72 hour stretch between sets within a week and two 48 hour stretches.

    I could do more sets of pull-ups at home (like, a lot) and just nix pulldowns altogether, but I’d rather not. Close grip (unilateral) pulldowns are improving smoothly, even. And I’m struggling but damn I love me some straight arms.

    Tl;dr more than one 72 hour rest windows impossible with my exercise choices due to equipment limitations....

    @jax for traps I do barbell shrugs and incline DB Kelso shrugs.

    Low back didn’t even cross my mind tbh, I’ve injured it so many times over the years the fact that I can still deadlift at all is a miracle. I’ve indefinitely disposed of barbell rows (subbed Pendlays) and low bar squats (subbed fronts and high bar). I just recovered from a bad flare up and don’t intend to **** with adding sets there... like... ever.

    As for how long it took me to build up to back sets, if I’m not including the aforementioned trap stuff, I started with (well anyway when I started Viking’s, before stripping the program down to its skeleton and remodeling and personalizing it) and have maintained this volume for a couple of years. I’ve always tiptoed around adding back volume because it always seemed like a lot already and I didn’t want to fall into overkill. Trap sets came along like a year ago and I didn’t notice any intrusion on my general back work.

    This is a tough split in my opinion but there was a time when it was fairly popular:

    Based on you equipment needs at the gym:

    Gym days:

    Legs, back, bis.- give yourself 90-120 min.


    Home :
    Chest, shoulders, tris.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2019
    Age: 52
    Posts: 7,177
    Rep Power: 41795
    BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    BeginnerGainz is offline
    I do 4 hard sets of rows and 4 hard sets of pulldowns a week. Seems to be working OK.
    Age: 29

    "If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants"
    -Sir Isaac Newton
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Posts: 13,272
    Rep Power: 33348
    TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) TAWS6 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    TAWS6 is offline
    I’m just finishing a 6 week back specialization cycle. Simple and effective and only 4 days in the gym with the upper lower setup.

    Upper back spec- Monday / Thursday
    Pendlay row 5x5
    Lat pulldown 4x12
    Everything else maintenance for 2-3 heavy sets
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2006
    Age: 69
    Posts: 19,132
    Rep Power: 99931
    Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000)
    Tommy W. is offline
    Volume and intensity will always be relative to recovery
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2011
    Posts: 9,586
    Rep Power: 14844
    Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    Filmbuff81 is offline
    Personally I’d just spread some of the work to your leg days.

    If you’re stagnating on lifts consider swapping some exercises, vary the rep range, or ramp the volume over the course of a meso.

    I think 2 versions of shrugs on top of deadlifts and rows is pretty pointless so you could save some volume just from dropping to 1 shrug variation.

    I can’t even remember the last time I did shrugs and my traps have no problem continuing to grow and kinda fall into the helms school of thought that unless traps are an obvious weakness there’s no point wasting resources on shrugs.
    the latest and greatest in training...or whatever.

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=177744461&page=3
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    Registered User Xpiro's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2019
    Age: 52
    Posts: 745
    Rep Power: 3728
    Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    Xpiro is offline
    Well as far as straight arms are concerned I think a form tweak may have been what was needed( tho I’m not sure about the longevity of progression past yesterday’s success) I think I’ve been trying to keep my arms too straight, eliminating the bottom part of the lift where elbows go back in favor of pulling it literally straight down and failing to get a proper contraction. So I’ll see how it goes now.

    On too much shrugging, BB shrugs made my upper traps about as soon as I implemented them, whereas Kelsos I introduced as an upper day finisher with reps in the 15-20 range to target the lowers, but I brought them in around the same time as I started doing Pendlay rows, and I did see an increase in back thickness around that time, so I’m not 100% certain what did it. Love the feel on both of them, but maybe I could eliminate Kelsos if I might be over my MRV.

    And ah yeah volume ramping is a rabbit hole I tried going down once and it didn’t do anything but make my workouts way too long, but I may have a) not started with low enough volume and/or b) tried to run the block for too many weeks. It’s something I want to try to do properly, maybe starting next week, one back off set per body part per week except for back which can either remain stable or come down until after my next deload.
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2011
    Posts: 9,586
    Rep Power: 14844
    Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) Filmbuff81 is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    Filmbuff81 is offline
    Well I just mean you’re already doing like 20+ sets of back work, so starting under that and then ramping up to 20ish or whatever is better than trying to hammer over 20 every week I’d think.

    So your workouts wouldn’t really get longer, if anything they’d be shorter on average.

    And I’d say drop the Kelsos for a months and see what happens.
    Last edited by Filmbuff81; 11-27-2021 at 07:16 PM.
    the latest and greatest in training...or whatever.

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=177744461&page=3
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 56
    Posts: 2,271
    Rep Power: 9299
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Xpiro.

    This is what I do every four days.

    I vary the order of these three movements.

    Seated chest supported row 5-6 sets to failure typically 6-8 reps. Occasionally as high as 12 or so or as low as 5 maybe. Sometimes a pyramid
    Wide grip lat pulldowns 5-6 sets 6-10 reps. Occasionally as high as 12 or low as 5…sometimes a pyramid
    Narrow grip lat pulldowns 4-6 sets …usually 8-10 reps but often 6-8 or a pyramid.

    *I would say 12 is kinda the sweet spot for sets, but I have been forcing 18 sets for months. When I first started pushing the volume up I questioned if I was overdoing it but I got used to the work pretty fast. I was also driving up volume everywhere else.


    Every set is done until I know I couldn’t get another rep without a long pause. One thing I will say, I like a quality squeeze of 8-10 but also that big crazy heavy pull around 6. I think my back responds well to HEAVY and high volume with tense squeezes.

    I don’t do any direct trap stuff other than upright rows (I train back with chest, shoulders immediately afterwards)

    I’m a lifetime natural, too fat but I am happy with what I have built at age 55.
    Last edited by coachcalande; 11-28-2021 at 02:53 AM.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    Registered User Xpiro's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2019
    Age: 52
    Posts: 745
    Rep Power: 3728
    Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Xpiro is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    Xpiro is offline
    Failure training doesn’t work for me anymore unfortunately (?). I got away with it for a long time but these days my progress just gets crowded and stops, leads to injury at worst.

    12-18 sets is so few compared to what I do, but that could be a good idea for a reset after a deload. A major volume tolerance break after spending so long with so much, always jumping right back in after easy weeks.
    Reply With Quote

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts