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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Most will still come from your hips, grip and strength & endurance in your back.

    If someone let's you rag them around while rolling at high velocity.. Its already over. Strength increases speed at lower intensities (%1rm) btw

    Pendlays are explosive by nature! So high set, low rep, 'explosive' pendlays..

    Doing speed work for pullups is a big fat no..
    Ahh I think I understand what you’re saying. Smart dude. For the high set, low rep pendlays are they meant to be heavy or similar % as the other speed movements (50-70% 1rm etc)?

    Also why big fat no for speed pull ups?

    Thanks again!
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    If you're looking for other rowing options I'd consider something that's chest supported. A standard Chest Supported Row or Seal Row? My first priority with dynamic back work would be safety, and that's why I would lean towards doing it with some support.

    There's also no reason you couldn't do it with single arm variants. A Kroc Row or Meadows Row might good options, for example. These have the benefits of allowing you to help support yourself somewhat with the 'off' arm, and also reducing the overall load on your low back since the weight will be lighter.
    Good point. I have the option to do them pendlay style with my chest supported against the end of a bench. Something like a helms row but pendlay style with the bar returning to the floor each rep if that makes sense
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  3. #33
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    Why do people all think pendlays are low back taxing, 'unsafe' or hard to do for high workload?

    They really aren't at all..

    I can only imagine people are actually doing something different than a pendlay
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Why do people all think pendlays are low back taxing, 'unsafe' or hard to do for high workload?

    They really aren't at all..

    I can only imagine people are actually doing something different than a pendlay
    If it's worth anything, I've found them great all year since I started doing them, back parallel with and pulled straight off the floor. Also confused about the ill-repute.
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  5. #35
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Pendlays are one of the few things I won't do the day after I play hockey. I get stomach cramps from it, of all things.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by DogletDusk View Post
    Also why big fat no for speed pull ups?
    Sounds dangerous. Which is probably why Ego is against them
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  7. #37
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Stsrting to think people don't really know what dynamic work is.. Its not just do low % for low reps and low rest with optional bands or chain.

    Actual DE is violent, high impact and ****ing taxing.

    Or they wouldn't be asking why not DE pullups.





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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Stsrting to think people don't really know what dynamic work is.. Its not just do low % for low reps and low rest with optional bands or chain.

    Actual DE is violent, high impact and ****ing taxing.

    Or they wouldn't be asking why not DE pullups.





    Thanks for the vids. Yep, understood that it should be super forceful like in those sessions. Im going to stick with bench, squat, deadlift, pendlay rows for speed work. But just for knowledge sake, I missed the reason against DE pull-ups in the vids (sorry I’m stupid). Is it that you physically can’t exert yourself in pull-ups (safely) like you should be doing in DE bench, squat, dead coupled with its lack of sports application? Just trying to understand the reasoning. Thanks again
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  9. #39
    Work in Progress CW47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Why do people all think pendlays are low back taxing, 'unsafe' or hard to do for high workload?

    They really aren't at all..

    I can only imagine people are actually doing something different than a pendlay
    I can see why my post was interpreted that way, but it's not at all what I was intending to say. Pendlay Rows were the first and most obvious choice that came to mind for speed work. I was trying to offer some other options, and providing some rationale for chest supported or single arm work, since it's probably not the obvious choice for speed work.

    But I absolutely still think that bent over work in general puts the average person in a position that's more risky than some other alternatives - because most of them ARE doing those lifts incorrectly. Pendlays done correctly are certainly not dangerous (I've done them plenty myself, and I prefer them greatly over a standard Bent Over Row), and that's true of virtually any lift that's done properly.
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  10. #40
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    I can see why my post was interpreted that way, but it's not at all what I was intending to say. Pendlay Rows were the first and most obvious choice that came to mind for speed work. I was trying to offer some other options, and providing some rationale for chest supported or single arm work, since it's probably not the obvious choice for speed work.

    But I absolutely still think that bent over work in general puts the average person in a position that's more risky than some other alternatives - because most of them ARE doing something other than a Pendlay. Pendlays done correctly are certainly not dangerous (I've done them plenty myself, and I prefer them greatly over a standard Bent Over Row), and that's true of virtually any lift that's done properly.
    Wasn't aimed at your comment specifically bro. 😉
    Just See it here daily and it really obscure
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Wasn't aimed at your comment specifically bro. 😉
    Just See it here daily and it really obscure
    Gotcha.

    Here's another video showing speed work - Dave Tate and John Meadows teaching a group how to do them properly.



    If anyone is looking for conjugate content, check out elitefts and Wenning Strength on YouTube. Then consistently put out good videos on it.
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  12. #42
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    "There are so many people that think that programs are magic. There are so many people that think that reps and sets are magic. There's no such thing as magic with this xxxx. There are no secrets. The progress comes when you intelligently follow a program. Even it it's a xxxx program it can still give you positive results, and you can still learn from it."



    It's easy to get distracted by things that are very low on the ladder of importance, and overlook things that are higher. I always thought that programming was one of the most important factors in getting stronger. Experience has shown me that's absolutely not the case. When I first started on conjugate I was literally just trying stuff that I though might be fun - constantly using fat gripz, boards, and lifts I'd never done before. To be blunt, my programming was a disaster. I was doing too much volume on exercises that I shouldn't have been doing, with little rhyme or reason behind any of it. And yet I still made awesome progress. The programming honestly isn't near as important as most people think. It's about putting in great effort consistently, and pulling back when your body tells you to.

    So why am I posting this here? Because the video encompasses one of the big lessons I've learned since starting to use the conjugate training method. By maintaining my focus during each workout on either giving a maximum effort with a heavy weight, or giving a maximum effort in moving a lighter weight as fast as possible, I found that the other details (which exercises I was doing, how many reps and sets at what percentages, etc.) were of far less importance than I had imagined.
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  13. #43
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    The always thoughtful JM Blakley presents a good argument for NOT doing speed work.



    His recommendation for bench (which was his specialty) is to take your 6 rep PR and do 6 sets with it until you're able to get the full 36 reps, and then increase the weight and repeat.

    I've been doing a combination of things on 'dynamic days'. On some days doing speed work. Other days I do something closer to what he recommends in this video. Start out with ~70% of my 1RM for 6 sets of 6. Increase the weight each week until I'm unable to complete all 6 reps. Then change to 8 sets of 8 starting at ~65% 1RM, adding weight until unable to complete all reps. You can even go up to 10x10 if you want to also. Then cycle back to 6x6's again. I've found that this has helped me progress on bench more than anything. But I still do speed bench sometimes as well because it keeps me focused on pushing with as much force as possible.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    I can see why my post was interpreted that way, but it's not at all what I was intending to say. Pendlay Rows were the first and most obvious choice that came to mind for speed work. I was trying to offer some other options, and providing some rationale for chest supported or single arm work, since it's probably not the obvious choice for speed work.

    But I absolutely still think that bent over work in general puts the average person in a position that's more risky than some other alternatives - because most of them ARE doing those lifts incorrectly. Pendlays done correctly are certainly not dangerous (I've done them plenty myself, and I prefer them greatly over a standard Bent Over Row), and that's true of virtually any lift that's done properly.
    Pendlays are actually easier on the back than bent over rows because the bar resets on the floor each time. Deadstop rows could work in that regard as well.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Pendlays are actually easier on the back than bent over rows because the bar resets on the floor each time. Deadstop rows could work in that regard as well.
    Yes, no doubt. I don't have any issue with either of them, and did Pendlays regularly for quite a while at one point. I personally prefer them to bent over rows, and definitely think they're the better fit for speed work.
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    Yes, no doubt. I don't have any issue with either of them, and did Pendlays regularly for quite a while at one point. I personally prefer them to bent over rows, and definitely think they're the better fit for speed work.
    I’m the context of powerlifting, I wouldn’t use rows for speed work, or any back exercise for that matter, just deadlift variations. Back work is there to support the main lifts, not be a main lift in and of itself.

    Rows in my view, again in the context of powerlifting, have one purpose: to strength the scapular retractors and traps, particularly the mid traps. I don’t view them as a “power” exercise. But all back work should be performed as explosively as possible, by driving the elbow, with a slight pause at peak contraction, and a controlled eccentric.

    Just my opinion, others and yours obviously will vary
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    In the powerlifting world, many try to avoid lifts like BOR that are taxing to the lower back. So, Pendlay rows can become a staple as you're still using a barbell without frying your back extensors. Personally, I didn't shy away from the BOR as I liked that they developed my lower back and core. I just didn't do them the day before I squatted or deadlifted. If they were programmed on the same day, I did them last.
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    Originally Posted by mdonnelly80 View Post
    In the powerlifting world, many try to avoid lifts like BOR that are taxing to the lower back. So, Pendlay rows can become a staple as you're still using a barbell without frying your back extensors. Personally, I didn't shy away from the BOR as I liked that they developed my lower back and core. I just didn't do them the day before I squatted or deadlifted. If they were programmed on the same day, I did them last.
    Im in agreement here.

    Frequently progrmed the bor as a deadlift supplemental movement in place of an actual deadlift variation.

    But for me.. Ill save my lower back volume for dead & squat when im in season. And do chest support rows, pendlays or very pulls
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I’m the context of powerlifting, I wouldn’t use rows for speed work, or any back exercise for that matter, just deadlift variations. Back work is there to support the main lifts, not be a main lift in and of itself.

    Rows in my view, again in the context of powerlifting, have one purpose: to strength the scapular retractors and traps, particularly the mid traps. I don’t view them as a “power” exercise. But all back work should be performed as explosively as possible, by driving the elbow, with a slight pause at peak contraction, and a controlled eccentric.

    Just my opinion, others and yours obviously will vary
    Yes, I agree with this, along with the comments from mdonnely and ego.
    Only reason this was being discussed is because DogletDusk was asking about doing speed work on rows.

    It's not that there's anything wrong with any specific movement. It's a matter of measuring the cost relative to the benefit for everything that's being done.
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    The always thoughtful JM Blakley presents a good argument for NOT doing speed work.

    His recommendation for bench (which was his specialty) is to take your 6 rep PR and do 6 sets with it until you're able to get the full 36 reps, and then increase the weight and repeat.

    I've been doing a combination of things on 'dynamic days'. On some days doing speed work. Other days I do something closer to what he recommends in this video. Start out with ~70% of my 1RM for 6 sets of 6. Increase the weight each week until I'm unable to complete all 6 reps. Then change to 8 sets of 8 starting at ~65% 1RM, adding weight until unable to complete all reps. You can even go up to 10x10 if you want to also. Then cycle back to 6x6's again. I've found that this has helped me progress on bench more than anything. But I still do speed bench sometimes as well because it keeps me focused on pushing with as much force as possible.
    Basically replacing it with more volume work, which is fine. However, the context of the video is powerlifting and conjugate really isn’t the best template for it. It’s better suited to athletes or lifters who want general strength, speed, hyp that better translates to the real-world. Conjugate shines because of its lack of specificity, which also tends to be poor for powerlifting. The upside to that is you’re getting stronger and more explosive at a multitude of joint angles. This has great application to producing force in the real-world as you need to do so (and sometimes quickly) in varying positions, which can differ from basic powerlifting movements done ad nauseam.

    If the goal is powerlifting, I wouldn’t suggest conjugate. If the goal is general real-world performance, I’d keep speed work as a prominent part of the program. Would also recommend adding more variation to speed work. Don’t limit it to flat bench, box squat, deadlifts. Change grip/stance widths, bench angles, ROM etc. Can also add in some plyos, resistance based cardio etc and you have a complete system for performance, and quality of life really.
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    Originally Posted by leidenesLK View Post
    Basically replacing it with more volume work, which is fine. However, the context of the video is powerlifting and conjugate really isn’t the best template for it. It’s better suited to athletes or lifters who want general strength, speed, hyp that better translates to the real-world. Conjugate shines because of its lack of specificity, which also tends to be poor for powerlifting. The upside to that is you’re getting stronger and more explosive at a multitude of joint angles. This has great application to producing force in the real-world as you need to do so (and sometimes quickly) in varying positions, which can differ from basic powerlifting movements done ad nauseam.

    If the goal is powerlifting, I wouldn’t suggest conjugate. If the goal is general real-world performance, I’d keep speed work as a prominent part of the program. Would also recommend adding more variation to speed work. Don’t limit it to flat bench, box squat, deadlifts. Change grip/stance widths, bench angles, ROM etc. Can also add in some plyos, resistance based cardio etc and you have a complete system for performance, and quality of life really.
    I get what you're saying. I don't know that it's that clear cut though?

    Some powerlifters will benefit greatly from dynamic work. In fact, I think there's a reasonable argument for them needing it more than the average person or average athlete. Conversely, an athlete is already going to be getting their dynamic work in in the form of their sport, and they may or may not benefit from the type of dynamic effort stuff we're talking about here.
    Different things work for different people.

    Fundamentally, I don't view Conjugate as a program but more as a set of principles which can be incorporated into programming in innumerable ways. There are many programs out there that do this already, including some that are designed for power lifters and some that are designed for athletes. It's a tool in the toolbox of physical training.
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    I get what you're saying. I don't know that it's that clear cut though?

    Some powerlifters will benefit greatly from dynamic work. In fact, I think there's a reasonable argument for them needing it more than the average person or average athlete. Conversely, an athlete is already going to be getting their dynamic work in in the form of their sport, and they may or may not benefit from the type of dynamic effort stuff we're talking about here.
    Different things work for different people.

    Fundamentally, I don't view Conjugate as a program but more as a set of principles which can be incorporated into programming in innumerable ways. There are many programs out there that do this already, including some that are designed for power lifters and some that are designed for athletes. It's a tool in the toolbox of physical training.
    DE has a lot of benefits, but it doesn’t translate well to the sport of powerlifting where 1RM is the goal and the speed in which you do that not being that important. It’s second-tier force production and won’t ever reach the force of a max. One of the big reasons for its inclusion in Westside was the synergistic effect with ME in terms of recovery. Original westside was actually 4 ME days.

    That being said, DE would definitely benefit a powerlifter, but it’s about what works best. It’s an opportunity cost, like JM said. You could be using resources spent on DE on more near-max training (specificity) or just hyp, which we know mass having the greatest effect on strength.

    Re the average person, I was referring to the average person who doesn’t have a particular goal in mind and they want multiple attributes that better them in the real-world.

    Re athletes, most of their DE from sport and plyos is low % explosive-strength. They benefit from higher velocity loads too, including speed-strength and strength-speed, which can only be achieved with a barbell. It works.

    Yep, conjugate just means the development of multiple training attributes concurrently. Westsides way of doing it isn’t the best template for powerlifting, due to its low specificity to the sport. Powerlifters would be better off reducing DE and using more comp lifts for ME. Doing that with more near-max training, or hyp work, in its place will better serve a powerlifters goals.
    Last edited by leidenesLK; 12-07-2021 at 02:30 PM.
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    Originally Posted by leidenesLK View Post
    DE has a lot of benefits, but it doesn’t translate well to the sport of powerlifting where 1RM is the goal and the speed in which you do that not being that important. It’s second-tier force production and won’t ever reach the force of a max. One of the big reasons for its inclusion in Westside was the synergistic effect with ME in terms of recovery. Original westside was actually 4 ME days.

    That being said, DE would definitely benefit a powerlifter, but it’s about what works best. It’s an opportunity cost, like JM said. You could be using resources spent on DE on more near-max training (specificity) or just hyp, which we know mass having the greatest effect on strength.

    Re the average person, I was referring to the average person who doesn’t have a particular goal in mind and they want multiple attributes that better them in the real-world.

    Re athletes, most of their DE from sport and plyos is low % explosive-strength. They benefit from higher velocity loads too, including speed-strength and strength-speed, which can only be achieved with a barbell. It works.

    Yep, conjugate just means the development of multiple training attributes concurrently. Westsides way of doing it isn’t the best template for powerlifting, due to its low specificity to the sport. Powerlifters would be better off reducing DE and using more comp lifts for ME. Doing that with more near-max training, or hyp work, in its place will better serve a powerlifters goals.
    Got it! Thanks for the further explanation.
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    For those that still don't know what Conjugate training is...



    On a serious note though, I think we talked about programming for sticking points in here.?. If we didn't, I am now.
    Here's a video from Joseph Franzo on the subject that I really enjoyed. He's strongly opposed to adjusting programming to reduce/eliminate sticking points by doing partial range of motion, changing accessories, etc.

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    Dave Tate is someone I always like listening to. So much experience and knowledge, and I love his rambling way of sharing what he's learned over the years.

    In this one he talks through his process of programming Max Effort and Dynamic Effort during the time period when he was working with John Rusin on rehabbing his body. He offers up some good insight that lifters at most stages can learn from.

    How To Program Max Effort/Dynamic Effort Training With Dave Tate
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    Originally Posted by CW47 View Post
    Dave Tate is someone I always like listening to. So much experience and knowledge, and I love his rambling way of sharing what he's learned over the years.

    In this one he talks through his process of programming Max Effort and Dynamic Effort during the time period when he was working with John Rusin on rehabbing his body. He offers up some good insight that lifters at most stages can learn from.

    How To Program Max Effort/Dynamic Effort Training With Dave Tate
    Unfortunately rusin is another bs artist and nocebo peddler like seedman.. Strangely, very good friends.

    Always enjoy dave tho.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Unfortunately rusin is another bs artist and nocebo peddler like seedman.. Strangely, very good friends.

    Always enjoy dave tho.
    Never knew they were friends. Interesting, lol. And yeah, I'm definitely not a proponent of his stuff.
    Only mentioned him because Dave refers to 'John' multiple times during the video.
    It also helps date the recording of this to a few years back.
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