How to program progression on main lifts for hypertrophy?

[MuayB96]

Whats the best way to program main lifts in an hypertrophy program?

[coachcalande]

Whats the best way to program main lifts in an hypertrophy program?

1- Pick a rep range that you enjoy. Increase wt when you can do more reps than alotted. For example say you chose 6-12 reps as your range. When you can do 12, add weight.

Or…

2- pick a total rep goal, when you reach total rep goals during your prescribed sets, increase weight …for example, when you can do x amount of weight for 30 reps or more in your four sets, add weight.

[SKYHIGHFitness]

Totally depends on experience level.

Beginner:
Pick an appropriate amount of reps for the lift. Maybe 6. Do 3-4 sets, doing 6 reps with a certain weight. Come back the next week and do the same thing with 5-10 more pounds. Rinse and repeat.

Intermediate:
Pick an appropriate range of reps for the lift. Maybe 6-10. Do 3-4 sets, doing 6-10 reps with a certain weight, come back the next week and do the same thing until you can do 10 reps for all 3-4 sets. The week after completing the max reps for all sets, do the same thing with 5-10 more pounds. Rinse and repeat.

Advanced:
Pick an appropriate range of reps for the lift. Maybe 6-10. Do 3-4 sets, doing 10 reps with a an appropriately difficult weight (RPE ~7), come back the next week and do 9 reps with 5-10 more pounds. Do this for 5 weeks, on the last week completing 3-4 sets of 6 reps. Rinse and repeat but with 5-10 more pounds than you used for your last week of 10’s.

[MuayB96]

Could i do something like this?

Lets say this is an upper day as an example

Bench: 3 x 5-10 (2 rir)
Bb row: 3 x 8-12 (2 rir)
Flyes: 3 x 10-15 (1-0 rir)
Curls: 3 x 8-12 (1-0 rir)


So on bench i keep 2 rir on all sets, then every week i add reps while maintaining 2 rir on all sets, adjusting weight to stay in rep range, then when i reach the top end i add weight, basically double progression with autoregulating.

So progress in load and reps are happening organically, instead of forcing progression, and if over time im able to do more reps and load, then i know im training with sufficent volume and effort.


For my goals of just caring to look good and not worrying to much about strength, would this be an decent way to program progression? Do i need to program percentages for main lifts for pure hypertrophy?

[coachcalande]

Could i do something like this?

Lets say this is an upper day as an example

Bench: 3 x 5-10 (2 rir)
Bb row: 3 x 8-12 (2 rir)
Flyes: 3 x 10-15 (1-0 rir)
Curls: 3 x 8-12 (1-0 rir)


So on bench i keep 2 rir on all sets, then every week i add reps while maintaining 2 rir on all sets, adjusting weight to stay in rep range, then when i reach the top end i add weight, basically double progression with autoregulating.

So progress in load and reps are happening organically, instead of forcing progression, and if over time im able to do more reps and load, then i know im training with sufficent volume and effort.


For my goals of just caring to look good and not worrying to much about strength, would this be an decent way to program progression? Do i need to program percentages for main lifts for pure hypertrophy?

Way too complicated and can be simplified so fast by trial and error to adjust the weight until it’s something you hit your target rep range with. For hypertrophy or even strength gains, auto regulated training is as simple as going by how difficult it is to hit your targetted rep range. If it’s too light, add, too heavy, remove…can be adjusted set to set, workout to workout.

It’s not going to make you smaller or weaker to lift a weight a rep or two above your desired rep range nor a rep or two below.

Keep it simple, progress by feel…and performance.

[Xpiro]

How do you all feel about straight sets with a per-set rep goal and designated RPE, adding weight based on progression in all but the last set?

For instance, 4 sets at 6-8 reps, RPE 8 with the same load across all of the sets ends up like this...

8 reps @8
8 reps @8
8 reps @8
6 reps @8

Instead of taking more time to add those last 2 reps or risking a too high RPE on the last set, add more weight and do it over again. Hit 7 of 8 if you can at the designated RPE but not necessarily. Whatever best manages fatigue basically as long as you can hit minimum 6 reps.

Not anything I’ve tried yet, but is there anything less effective about this vs. 4 straight sets of 8 reps or a 32 rep goal across all 4? Or 3 sets across and a back-off set with a rep goal a step higher like 10-12?

[coachcalande]

Well, maybe I’m not the right guy to answer the question…

My personal belief is that every set should be maximized. Push or pull until you have form breakdown or failure. I have never used RPE to limit reps.

For me, I have long known that the vast majority of big men on the planet train with heavy weights and with a variety of reps mainly between 3-12. There are some that train even higher, say 12-20 reps but I would venture a guess that it’s a smaller minority of big men.

With that in mind, I could never see a reason to end a set before failure UNLESS I was adding more weight to the bar. For example, If I’m looking to hit some heavy 3-5 rep sets on bench…then a weight might be used as part of a ramp in essentially warming up.

I just do not believe in the train to failure Boogeyman. Every set I do is pushed near if not to failure.

So, to me 8-8-8-8 would be improved by pushing that first set to 10-11 reps and creating metabolic stress vs setting it down and relying solely on volume and eventually hopefully adding mechanical tension with progression on weight.

Hypertrophy training in my opinion relies on:

Time under tension/metabolic stress
Mechanical tension and recruiting additional muscle fibers
Volume dose response.

Some folks think a set taken to failure limits volume. Why? Why would it? Rest.

I’m going to the garage right now…I’ll take 12-15 sets to failure for each chest/back/shoulders in about an hour. My reps will probably be as low as 3-4 for a set or two chest and shoulders but as high as 15-20 for a set or two with the bulk between 6-8 I’m sure.

Now. I could limit myself to say 8-10 reps and would have to pay far more attention to the weight selected.

I’m enjoying the freedom of a wider rep range and more variety in weight used.

[jaxqen]

Some folks think a set taken to failure limits volume. Why? Why would it? Rest.

I’m going to the garage right now…I’ll take 12-15 sets to failure for each chest/back/shoulders in about an hour. My reps will probably be as low as 3-4 for a set or two chest and shoulders but as high as 15-20 for a set or two with the bulk between 6-8 I’m sure.

Now. I could limit myself to say 8-10 reps and would have to pay far more attention to the weight selected.

I’m enjoying the freedom of a wider rep range and more variety in weight used.

Not critiquing your way, it definitely works, but in my case going to failure (real failure) limits volume.

Let's say I do dumbbell incline press
set 1 - 12 reps - failure
set 2 - I can get 9 reps to failure
set 3 - let's say 7 to failure

Not, If I don't go to failure, I can:
set 1 - 10 reps
set 2 - 10 reps
set 3 - 10 reps

That's 2 more reps for me, doing straight sets.

Then i go to the 2nd chest exercise, let's say a hammer chest machine. When doing straight sets on the 1st exercise, I do better on the 2nd exercise, compared with going to failure on the 1st exercise.

[coachcalande]

Not critiquing your way, it definitely works, but in my case going to failure (real failure) limits volume.

Let's say I do dumbbell incline press
set 1 - 12 reps - failure
set 2 - I can get 9 reps to failure
set 3 - let's say 7 to failure

Not, If I don't go to failure, I can:
set 1 - 10 reps
set 2 - 10 reps
set 3 - 10 reps

That's 2 more reps for me, doing straight sets.

Then i go to the 2nd chest exercise, let's say a hammer chest machine. When doing straight sets on the 1st exercise, I do better on the 2nd exercise, compared with going to failure on the 1st exercise.

So do another set. That’s now more volume and more metabolic stress.

I guess to me, creating that muscle damage and fatigue is what it’s about. I can understand wanting not be be spent early, but I think anyone with training under their belt builds that work capacity.

[coachcalande]

For the sake of discussion, here is the result of my workout this am.

Bench
235x15
255x12
285x7
305x4
285x5
255x9

52 total reps there.

*Every set to failure, rep range 3-20 was my target. 255x12 surpassed my expectations to be honest.

Incline bench
235x9
245x7
255x5
235x7
235x5

Happy with the mini pyramid reps between 5-12 was my target
Every set to failure. 33 total reps

Flyes
45x14
45x11
45x9
45x7

41 total reps there

Rows
272x10
292x8
292x6
292x6
292x6

Wide pulldowns
186x11
208x6
208x6
208x6

Narrow pulldowns
208x5
196x8
196x8
196x7
196x7

Seated press behind head
This went well!
165x10
175x7
185x5
195x3
165x8

Upright rows, had to rush..

95x8,7,6,6

Happy with the day.

[Xpiro]

Well, maybe I’m not the right guy to answer the question…

My personal belief is that every set should be maximized. Push or pull until you have form breakdown or failure. I have never used RPE to limit reps.

For me, I have long known that the vast majority of big men on the planet train with heavy weights and with a variety of reps mainly between 3-12. There are some that train even higher, say 12-20 reps but I would venture a guess that it’s a smaller minority of big men.

With that in mind, I could never see a reason to end a set before failure UNLESS I was adding more weight to the bar. For example, If I’m looking to hit some heavy 3-5 rep sets on bench…then a weight might be used as part of a ramp in essentially warming up.

I just do not believe in the train to failure Boogeyman. Every set I do is pushed near if not to failure.

So, to me 8-8-8-8 would be improved by pushing that first set to 10-11 reps and creating metabolic stress vs setting it down and relying solely on volume and eventually hopefully adding mechanical tension with progression on weight.

Hypertrophy training in my opinion relies on:

Time under tension/metabolic stress
Mechanical tension and recruiting additional muscle fibers
Volume dose response.

Some folks think a set taken to failure limits volume. Why? Why would it? Rest.

I’m going to the garage right now…I’ll take 12-15 sets to failure for each chest/back/shoulders in about an hour. My reps will probably be as low as 3-4 for a set or two chest and shoulders but as high as 15-20 for a set or two with the bulk between 6-8 I’m sure.

Now. I could limit myself to say 8-10 reps and would have to pay far more attention to the weight selected.

I’m enjoying the freedom of a wider rep range and more variety in weight used.

Apart from the fact that my physical therapist who’s familiar with my injury history told me to always keep reps in the tank, in my experience stopping short of 0 RIR by about 2 or 3 has led to the most consistent progress. Failure doesn’t work for me, and I’ve had to accept that. I’ve stalled out too many times by pushing as far as I can reasonably go. There’s also my whole book of injuries and my injury proneness to consider.

[MyEgoProblem]

Any way you like so long as there is an upwards trend.

[Xpiro]

Surely there are more and less optimal ways to ensure the creation of that upward trend is the thing.

[MyEgoProblem]

Surely there are more and less optimal ways to ensure the creation of that upward trend is the thing.

For hyp its as simple as...

Do enough pretty hard work (and eat enough) to grow..
And the progressive overload is the result of the growth, Not the cause.

Periodisation really isn't all its cracked up to be. Programming progressions is kinda backwards if you arent doing enough work to begin with.

Ofc some protocols will work better, but they are all n=1 and partly what you enjoy and stick to most.

[DogletDusk]

For hyp its as simple as...

Do enough pretty hard work (and eat enough) to grow..
And the progressive overload is the result of the growth, Not the cause.

Periodisation really isn't all its cracked up to be. Programming progressions is kinda backwards if you arent doing enough work to begin with.

Ofc some protocols will work better, but they are all n=1 and partly what you enjoy and stick to most.

What would you recommend for progression for strength purposes on main lifts?

[MyEgoProblem]

What would you recommend for progression for strength purposes on main lifts?

See above
Add heavy skill work.
Adjust for individual response.

[coachcalande]

Definitely an art and a science. Each has to find their own way.

There is only what works and what does not. I have yet to see anyone shrink from training.

[Darkius]

Whats the best way to program main lifts in an hypertrophy program?

https://youtu.be/VbYhYcHJp_E

Scroll to near the bottom of his videos list. He talks a lot about managing fatigue and designing programs.

[MuayB96]

So there is no need to program main lifts from percentages of your 1RM like in strength programs, for pure hypertrophy work and goals? Just hit an rep range, take it close to failure, and perform enough sets, then look for upward trend in being able to add reps or weight?

[Darkius]

Could i do something like this?

Lets say this is an upper day as an example

Bench: 3 x 5-10 (2 rir)
Bb row: 3 x 8-12 (2 rir)
Flyes: 3 x 10-15 (1-0 rir)
Curls: 3 x 8-12 (1-0 rir)


So on bench i keep 2 rir on all sets, then every week i add reps while maintaining 2 rir on all sets, adjusting weight to stay in rep range, then when i reach the top end i add weight, basically double progression with autoregulating.

So progress in load and reps are happening organically, instead of forcing progression, and if over time im able to do more reps and load, then i know im training with sufficent volume and effort.


For my goals of just caring to look good and not worrying to much about strength, would this be an decent way to program progression? Do i need to program percentages for main lifts for pure hypertrophy?

What you described is what I do.
I attempt to add reps and then add weight when my reps hit the top of my range. Simple. Depending how fast I'm increasing, I'll add 5 pounds regardless, since I'll likely be stronger in 48 hours.

How do you know when you are at 2 RIR? I'm only 60% accurate at knowing when I'm at 1 RIR.


As to the coach going to failure, even with added rest, you can do even more sets with 2 RIR and the same rest. And at the same number of sets, you need fewer days to recover with 2 RIR.

Stimulus to grow is almost the same at 2 RIR vs 0, but muscle tears and recovery likely take twice as long with 0. Only reason I do 1 RIR is it is easier to identify.

[Darkius]

So there is no need to program main lifts from percentages of your 1RM like in strength programs, for pure hypertrophy work and goals? Just hit an rep range, take it close to failure, and perform enough sets, then look for upward trend in being able to add reps or weight?

How did you figure out your 1 rep max? By experimenting? I prefer to experiment to find my 12 rep max. Safer. I then calculate my 1 rep max and consider that estimate close enough.

[Darkius]

Definitely an art and a science. Each has to find their own way.

There is only what works and what does not. I have yet to see anyone shrink from training.

Technically the training might not cause the strinking, but if they burn enough calories and don't increase food intake, they will shrink.

Also, if someone does too many sets, the pain will eventually stop them long before they see shrinkage from torn down muscle. So you are correct there too.

But I have seen people do lots of lifting and fail to grow, and even up calories and just add fat. So training any old way won't necessarily lead to success.

[Darkius]

Surely there are more and less optimal ways to ensure the creation of that upward trend is the thing.

Fierce 5 automatically adds 5 pounds to bench press and asks you to do 3 sets of 5 reps. You stop at 5 reps on the last set even if you can do more, unless I'm understanding it wrong. Beginners need not go to failure. Add 5 pounds next time. If you fail to hit all the lifts, reduce weight 15% and resume the 5 pound rules, using the lighter weight to work on form.


I prefer my method. 3 sets of 10-15 reps at 1 RIR for each set. Add 5 pounds when I hit 15 reps. If my progress stalls, I check my sleep, hydration, preworkout carbs, etc. I don't lower the weight unless I fall below 10 reps. Form matters, but I watch that regardless. I only do good reps. I don't know if I should add when I hit 15 reps on the 3rd set or the 1st. If there is a substantial difference, it means I need to rest longer between sets. 90 seconds seems fine for me.

5 reps is for strength training. Most beginners are advised to build strength before doing body building, since volume depends on weight as well as reps. I prefer higher reps because of joint injures. Also for weight loss.

[MuayB96]

If you got a strength programming thats set up like this:


Week 1: 3 x 8 (75% 1RM)
Week 2: 3 x 5 (80% 1RM)
Week 3: 3 x 3 (85% 1RM)

Is the move from going from 75% to 80% then to 85%, progression overload? Would percentage increases be termed as progressive overload? or is it only when you see performance increase or set new PR?

[MuayB96]

If you got a strength programming thats set up like this:


Week 1: 3 x 8 (75% 1RM)
Week 2: 3 x 5 (80% 1RM)
Week 3: 3 x 3 (85% 1RM)

Is the move from going from 75% to 80% then to 85%, progression overload? Would percentage increases be termed as progressive overload? or is it only when you see performance increase or set new PR?

Bumping this question

[MuayB96]

If you got a strength programming thats set up like this:


Week 1: 3 x 8 (75% 1RM)
Week 2: 3 x 5 (80% 1RM)
Week 3: 3 x 3 (85% 1RM)

Is the move from going from 75% to 80% then to 85%, progression overload? Would percentage increases be termed as progressive overload? or is it only when you see performance increase or set new PR?

Anyone mind chiming in on this?

[beimei]

thanks for bringing this up. I have got some tips on the replies from others as I am also having the same question.