Why do I fall backwards when squatting?

[Darkius]

Cliffs:
What are some common reasons people fall backwards, and what troubleshooting steps do you recommend (besides posting a video)?




...
I try to keep my knees from going past my toes and get my upper leg down to parallel and think of sitting on a toilet.

My trainer warns when my knees go too far forward. She also tells me to not lean my torso too far forward since this is a squat not a deadlift.

I have long legs and a short torso, but so does she, and she squats fine.

She wants me to work on hamstring stretches, hip thrusts, calf stretches, and straighten my hunch back more. I'd like to have a different trainer see me for a session.

I have a video, but it includes my head, as is not of when I fell over. I balanced by holding weights way out in front of me.



What are some common reasons people fall backward? The mirrors at my gym start 2 feet up, so I can't see my shoes. I'll try squatting on a platform. And will put pads behind it, lol.

I'm also thinking of squatting with my toes touching a wall and dragging my knees down the wall, but should my head stick past my toes? Maybe I'll put the box in front of my toes instead.

[air2fakie]

It's uncommon for people to fall backwards when squatting unless they're idiots.

You may have dimensions/form that naturally need your knees to go further forward than you and your trainer think is allowable.

You may also sit too far back on the toilet so it may not be a good cue for you.

[Darkius]

It's uncommon for people to fall backwards when squatting unless they're idiots.

You may have dimensions/form that naturally need your knees to go further forward than you and your trainer think is allowable.

You may also sit too far back on the toilet so it may not be a good cue for you.

Not just my trainer. Almost every trainer online including Riptoe.



There are 4 degrees of freedom here:
1. Heal joint, which sets the knee position and affects balance. Moving knees forward move balance forward while increasing load on the knees.
2. Knee joint, which won't affect balance when near parallel.
3. Hip joint, which can affect balance depending how far the torso leans. I suspect I need to lean lower than most.
4. Weight location, front vs side vs behind the shoulder. I never was a fan of barbells on my back. Nice thing is even with heavy dumbbels, the torque I need to balance my body is the same, so I don't have to move them as far forward. The amount I must use still is a moderate front delt workout.

Falling back with 2 dumbbells is also safer than with a barbell on my back. I can still do shallow squats with the barbell.

Gobblet squats might work well for me now.

[Darkius]

I also love bent leg barbell deadlifts. I wonder how low I can go and if they are a substitute for squats. Balance works better for me, safety seems higher, grip strength is built, no bar digging into my back. No squat rack needed.

[EliKoehn]

I also love bent leg barbell deadlifts. I wonder how low I can go and if they are a substitute for squats. Balance works better for me, safety seems higher, grip strength is built, no bar digging into my back. No squat rack needed.

If you want to morph the deadlift into something more like a squat, use a hex bar.

[air2fakie]

Again, people who lift casually don't repeatedly fall backwards during squats and the goal isn't to pick a variation that is safest when you fall backwards.

It's silly to say you don't want to show people your video, which will allow them to see what you're doing wrong. Especially since based on your posts, you're probably doing 20 outlandish things you read online or based on your own theories that are totally messing up your form.

It's hard for people to give you advice when you already know everything, and when most of your threads are pretty much you talking to yourself.

[WolfRose7]

You can't fall backward unless the weight is shifting behind your centre of gravity.

So you are either most likely not allowing enough knee travel and overbiasing the hips.

Squat is a balance between hips n quads.

People like Rip go way to far one way and train everyone with the same queues as if that's how people work.
And you get the opposite end who only ever shout knees out chest up.

Your trainer has no idea how to coach, she might know what works for her, but she doesn't know that her queues don't always apply to others yet.

Watch some of Dave Tates coaching on YouTube where he gets 6+ people at a time, everyone gets different feedback, some have similar tendencies because we do get common patterns but you can coach 1 way all the time. You might as well be a 1 page manual and not a coach at that point

[BeginnerGainz]

If you want to morph the deadlift into something more like a squat, use a hex bar.

A sumo deadlift is closer to a squat than a hex bar deadlift. And neither of them are close to a squat. Completely different movements entirely.

OP. Your trainer needs to make herself more knowledgeable on how to squat. Knees over toes isn’t a bad thing. Leaning forward isn’t a bad thing. It all depends on how your built.

[EliKoehn]

It literally is "more" like a squat than a conventional deadlift.

Squats are also partially hinges, as you surely know.

[paulinkansas]

Do you have an ear infection?

[MyEgoProblem]

People fail over when they are too scared to lean over and try to stay too upright.

Or they are watching them selves in a mirrors with their heads cranked back.

A sumo deadlift is closer to a squat than a hex bar deadlift. And neither of them are close to a squat. Completely different movements entirely.

OP. Your trainer needs to make herself more knowledgeable on how to squat. Knees over toes isn’t a bad thing. Leaning forward isn’t a bad thing. It all depends on how your built.

The freedom to blast your knees forward with a trap bar with an upright Torso and bastardise the lift (erm? Modify the pattern...)
is certainly FAR more like a squat than most sumos.

Then if you use the high handles, that's just a force multiplier to the position. And at least as squatty as most lowbars.

Definitely bin the coach 100%... No clue at all.
A pt cert does not a knowledgeable coach make.

[Darkius]

I'm glad to read so many different people saying the same thing. That gives me confidence in your advice.

My trainer also said it is ok to point toes straight forward, which Riptoe said 30 degrees in his instructions.

I'll have a look at Dave Tates, and also see if AthleneX has a squat video. Maybe I have been reading too small a fish bowl.

[BeginnerGainz]

I'm glad to read so many different people saying the same thing. That gives me confidence in your advice.

My trainer also said it is ok to point toes straight forward, which Riptoe said 30 degrees in his instructions.

I'll have a look at Dave Tates, and also see if AthleneX has a squat video. Maybe I have been reading too small a fish bowl.

Dude.

Just post a form video.

[jaxqen]

so, the hexbar will or not grow yuuuge quads?




Every time someone post a form video, at least one person masturbates looking at it.
Just don't, it's not safe!
This is how pornstars started.
In no time, you'll wake up in jizz, coke, meth, saliva and piss. Not yours, others. OK, maybe part of the piss is yours, but that's it.


And just do Jefferson deadlifts, like a real man, with balls of steel. Squats are for sado-masochists who will end up like pornstars, but with blood and bruises and without coke.

and also see if AthleneX has a squat video.

with or without fake weights?

or a real man, like jason blaha, he has the fat, the beard and the bald head to prove it. Also glasses, like an intelectual, unlike Cavaliere.

It's hard for people to give you advice when you already know everything

Don't give him advice then!

[BeginnerGainz]

so, the hexbar will or not grow yuuuge quads?




Every time someone post a form video, at least one person masturbates looking at it.
Just don't, it's not safe!
This is how pornstars started.
In no time, you'll wake up in jizz, coke, meth, saliva and piss. Not yours, others. OK, maybe part of the piss is yours, but that's it.


And just do Jefferson deadlifts, like a real man, with balls of steel. Squats are for sado-masochists who will end up like pornstars, but with blood and bruises and without coke.

Wut

[air2fakie]

Don't give him advice then!

I don't anymore, that was for the benefit of the people here who still try to help this dude.

[TheShadowMan]

Might help to warm up with a set or two of bodyweight squats, to prime the movement and practice your balance. Also, careful not to be too upright by looking at the ceiling, that can shift the load behind your center of gravity and make you prone to falling back. There's a sweet spot you'll find through practicing the movement enough times, it may not be immediate but you will eventually dial it in.

[Darkius]

I read more about Riptoe in other threads, and read his instructions again to check my memory. Riptoe recommends keeping the knees from passing the toes because he prefers lifting with the hips. He also advises leaning forward more. He does not say it is to avoid injury, but more about power.

My trainer and also my therapist said to keep my knee behind my toes because it is easier on injured knees. They knew this was not critical squat form. My trainer told me to keep my back up because she was worried about me reagrevating a lower back injury. This all worked for shallow squats but lead to balance issues when I went deeper.


I'm gradually learning which aspects of form are to prevent injury, to target different muscles, or to make tracking progress easier. Most directions don't specify which.


I now wonder if my knees have improved, or if I've just been trained how to squat without using them as much.

[air2fakie]

I read more about Riptoe in other threads, and read his instructions again to check my memory. Riptoe recommends keeping the knees from passing the toes because he prefers lifting with the hips. He also advises leaning forward more. He does not say it is to avoid injury, but more about power.

My trainer and also my therapist said to keep my knee behind my toes because it is easier on injured knees. They knew this was not critical squat form. My trainer told me to keep my back up because she was worried about me reagrevating a lower back injury. This all worked for shallow squats but lead to balance issues when I went deeper.


I'm gradually learning which aspects of form are to prevent injury, to target different muscles, or to make tracking progress easier. Most directions don't specify which.


I now wonder if my knees have improved, or if I've just been trained how to squat without using them as much.

Does any of Rippletits, your trainer or your therapist recommend falling backwards repeatedly when you squat in addition to knees behind toes?

[Darkius]

Does any of Rippletits, your trainer or your therapist recommend falling backwards repeatedly when you squat in addition to knees behind toes?

As I stated above in my post you quoted, Riptoe recommends leaning the torso forward to balance with knees not going past the toes, and this is just because he loves using hips more for power, even though knees past toes is good for growing the quads.

As for my trainer and therapist, neither wants me squating low right now if it might pressure my knees or formerly strained lower back too much. They recommend shallow squats where balance is less of an issue, now that they see the balance issue.

I think my low back can handle forward bend and will do unweighted Riptoe squats, rubber band assisted low squats with knees past toes, and weighted shallow squats for now till my knees get stronger.

I'm also going to bicycle with my toes instead of mid foot on the pedal, so I engage my quads more instead of my sore hamstrings, now that I know what is causing that.

[BeginnerGainz]

As I stated above in my post you quoted, Riptoe recommends leaning the torso forward to balance with knees not going past the toes, and this is just because he loves using hips more for power, even though knees past toes is good for growing the quads.

As for my trainer and therapist, neither wants me squating low right now if it might pressure my knees or formerly strained lower back too much. They recommend shallow squats where balance is less of an issue, now that they see the balance issue.

I think my low back can handle forward bend and will do unweighted Riptoe squats, rubber band assisted low squats with knees past toes, and weighted shallow squats for now till my knees get stronger.

I'm also going to bicycle with my toes instead of mid foot on the pedal, so I engage my quads more instead of my sore hamstrings, now that I know what is causing that.

It is spelled Rippetoe, but you already knew that.

[EliKoehn]

Man I wish Rippetoe was also my therapist. Just googled some Rippetoe quotes and this guy was a sage of his time.

"The deadlift also serves as a way to train the mind to do things that are hard."

"A weak man is not as happy as that same man would be if he were strong. This reality is offensive to some people who would like the intellectual or spiritual to take precedence. It is instructive to see what happens to these very people as their squat strength goes up."

"An adult male weighs at least 200 pounds." (<-- lol)

[paulinkansas]

"A weak man is not as happy as that same man would be if he were strong. This reality is offensive to some people who would like the intellectual or spiritual to take precedence. It is instructive to see what happens to these very people as their squat strength goes up."

If wonder if that quote was the origin or creative spark that helped create the characters "Hans and Franz"?

[TolerantLactose]

It is spelled Rippetoe, but you already knew that.

What else would you expect from a troll? He goes from complaining about falling backwards doing baby squats to giving advice in a form check without blinking.

[air2fakie]

As I stated above in my post you quoted, Riptoe recommends leaning the torso forward to balance with knees not going past the toes, and this is just because he loves using hips more for power, even though knees past toes is good for growing the quads.

As for my trainer and therapist, neither wants me squating low right now if it might pressure my knees or formerly strained lower back too much. They recommend shallow squats where balance is less of an issue, now that they see the balance issue.

I think my low back can handle forward bend and will do unweighted Riptoe squats, rubber band assisted low squats with knees past toes, and weighted shallow squats for now till my knees get stronger.

I'm also going to bicycle with my toes instead of mid foot on the pedal, so I engage my quads more instead of my sore hamstrings, now that I know what is causing that.

The fact that you repeatedly fall backwards when squatting (with dbs of all things) is bizarre, as is the fact that your trainer & therapist haven't fixed this via whatever combo of knees, hips & lean positioning that makes sense for you.

I'm not going to blame Rip for your issues, as he's never seen you squat & the vids you watch are simply giving general cues to a general audience.

[jaxqen]

Man I wish Rippetoe was also my therapist. Just googled some Rippetoe quotes and this guy was a sage of his time.

"The deadlift also serves as a way to train the mind to do things that are hard."

"An adult male weighs at least 200 pounds." (<-- lol)

I'm not going to comment on this deadlift one, but an adult male, lifter or not, 200 pounds or not, should not look like Mark Rippetoe.

[Darkius]

Well I'm now putting my knees past my toes. I tested them out again. No longer hurts. I did several full depth goblet squats. It is cardiovascular, but I won't add weight for now. I want to make sure my knees are ready before I take risks there.



And I did not know it was Rippetoe. I had read the article over a month ago.

And why wouldn't I restate what I thought I had read? I thought I had just failed to follow it correctly.


Anyway, what I like about goblet squats is my elbows keep my knees spaced correctly. Perfect width, as I saw on his video.

[EliKoehn]

I'm not going to comment on this deadlift one, but an adult male, lifter or not, 200 pounds or not, should not look like Mark Rippetoe.

Yeah, I had that in mind too and found that one more amusing than anything else. I often miss sarcastic remarks but ironically when I make them, so do others.

By the way, didn't you put a tribute to him in your sig a while back?

[GabrielDorsi]

It may be caused by a lack of tibialis anterior strenght or less range of motion (ROM) when squatting. Could be weak gluteus maximus too tho