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  1. #1
    Registered User Duderguybro's Avatar
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    Which route for max progress?

    I have been training since July with the goal of cutting (6 ft male weighed 220 around 25% bf estimate - now 190 around 12-14%). My ultimate goal is to be around 220 at 9% bf. Essentially this is a long cut before a clean bulk that will last quite a while so I want to get relatively lean before embarking.

    The last four weeks I have been doing Kris Gethins 8 week hardcore with decent results. The only thing is the deficit and amount of cardio is rather extreme at 80 min of cardio a day and 2 leg sessions a week.

    I am curious to know how you would rate this vs the 30 days out trainer by Craig Capurso? I am gravitating toward it as it focuses on arms (which are lagging) and has a more seemingly reasonable diet (cycles carbs, actually allows you to eat fats outside of what you get from meat sources).

    I know that any training regimen followed in a deficit should yield results, I’m just looking for some opinions on whether I should follow the 8 week through or swap?
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    yes
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    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Hang on let me take a hit, BHHHHHHHHHH

    YOu started in july with:
    YOUR LEAN BODY MASS: 165 LBS
    YOUR BODY FAT: 55 LBS

    Your current stats:
    YOUR LEAN BODY MASS: 165.3 LBS
    YOUR BODY FAT: 25 LBS

    Your goal:
    YOUR LEAN BODY MASS: 200.2 LBS
    YOUR BODY FAT: 20 LBS

    So you want to gain 35 pounds of muscle, and lose 5 pounds of fat.

    Lets keep going...

    If you are gods gift to lifting you will gain 3 pounds of muscle for every pound of fat on a bulk. So that means you need to gain 35 pounds of muscle and like 12 pounds of fat. Then somehow lose 17 pounds of fat without losing muscle.

    So based on your speed of .3 pounds of muscle every 3 months...
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    Registered User Duderguybro's Avatar
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    Maybe I was unclear. Anyway I’m ditching the programs and focusing on the big lifts and diet. I realize that the progress I want is a long term goal, so not sure why that was the focus of your response when I was asking about a short term cut before the clean bulk.
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    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Duderguybro View Post
    Maybe I was unclear. Anyway I’m ditching the programs and focusing on the big lifts and diet. I realize that the progress I want is a long term goal, so not sure why that was the focus of your response when I was asking about a short term cut before the clean bulk.
    "I know that any training regimen followed in a deficit should yield results"

    You are not getting "results". You are not getting "decent results" with the 8 week program. Using math, i have shown you have not made any muscle building progress since you started your journey. However i have showed that you have made great progress in fat reduction, without losing muscle, that is hard to do and you should be proud.


    Honestly i would continue what you have been doing, till you are around 10%. Then start the lean bulk, which again i have stated you will gain some fat at about those rates. Personally i would run any college "football" program as that will squeak out 90-95% of your lifetime gains in about 3 years of work, while maintaining peak performance, and can be ran on a strict diet.
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    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "I know that any training regimen followed in a deficit should yield results"

    You are not getting "results". You are not getting "decent results" with the 8 week program. Using math, i have shown you have not made any muscle building progress since you started your journey. However i have showed that you have made great progress in fat reduction, without losing muscle, that is hard to do and you should be proud.


    Honestly i would continue what you have been doing, till you are around 10%. Then start the lean bulk, which again i have stated you will gain some fat at about those rates. Personally i would run any college "football" program as that will squeak out 90-95% of your lifetime gains in about 3 years of work, while maintaining peak performance, and can be ran on a strict diet.
    What exactly defines a college "football" program?
    Bench: 320
    Squat: 405
    Deadlift: 505

    "... But always, there remained, the discipline of steel!"
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    Registered User Duderguybro's Avatar
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    I should say that my starting numbers are an estimate. I was fat and weak. I have definitely gained muscle as my bench went from barely handling 135 to doing reps with 225 on the smith (max attempt 285x3 a few weeks ago). I am significantly stronger but I acknowledged from the jump that I wouldn’t gain significant mass and strength until after the cut even though I did experience newbie gains.

    I am going to keep up the cardio 2x a day and bump the cals from 1750 to around 2200 and focus on the major lifts (bench, row, squat, deadlift, clean and press) with some auxiliaries. In a month when I switch to a clean bulk I am thinking of going press/pull/legs.

    Second Eli’s question about a college football program
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  9. #9
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    What exactly defines a college "football" program?
    Generally its a program you run after starting strength etc, that can be ran "on season". These are 2-3 year programs generally defined as taking your deadlift from 405 to 495, yet powerlifting is not the goal. Greyskull lp, 5/3/1, even bill starr and mark rippetoe have them, but they dont have trendy names.

    Hell if you wanted an off season program, while not trendy, there is the allpro intermediate programs that are so tough you have to rotate them every 2 months...


    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...5025731&page=1


    But be carefull on Push/Pull/legs. Its not that they are bad programs, but they are programmed for people who are only looking to put 10-15lbs on their bench over a year. So if you jump from say a upper/lower or push/pull too soon, you will end up with much slower progression and huge volume increase.
    Last edited by nightanole; 11-01-2021 at 04:46 PM.
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    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Duderguybro View Post
    I have been training since July with the goal of cutting (6 ft male weighed 220 around 25% bf estimate - now 190 around 12-14%). My ultimate goal is to be around 220 at 9% bf. Essentially this is a long cut before a clean bulk that will last quite a while so I want to get relatively lean before embarking.

    The last four weeks I have been doing Kris Gethins 8 week hardcore with decent results. The only thing is the deficit and amount of cardio is rather extreme at 80 min of cardio a day and 2 leg sessions a week.

    I am curious to know how you would rate this vs the 30 days out trainer by Craig Capurso? I am gravitating toward it as it focuses on arms (which are lagging) and has a more seemingly reasonable diet (cycles carbs, actually allows you to eat fats outside of what you get from meat sources).

    I know that any training regimen followed in a deficit should yield results, I’m just looking for some opinions on whether I should follow the 8 week through or swap?

    It is not possible to burn lots of calories with a sudden jump in cardio. Your legs will get sore and not recover fast enough, and you'll learn that just because you can ride 10 miles once a week does not mean you can 5 days per week. I learned this the hardway.


    As for cutting, you have to get all your micronutients. Fast cuts are tricky if you are not in shape or not obese. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


    You need food for your muscles to recover. Some people should get in shape first and then cut later when they can burn more calories. I'm doing a little of both.


    If you have time, try to burn calories at 60% your max heart rate. You can go longer and recover better. It won't interfere with leg day as much.
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    Registered User userFXZ1FCRS99Z's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    It is not possible to burn lots of calories with a sudden jump in cardio. Your legs will get sore and not recover fast enough, and you'll learn that just because you can ride 10 miles once a week does not mean you can 5 days per week. I learned this the hardway.


    As for cutting, you have to get all your micronutients. Fast cuts are tricky if you are not in shape or not obese. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


    You need food for your muscles to recover. Some people should get in shape first and then cut later when they can burn more calories. I'm doing a little of both.


    If you have time, try to burn calories at 60% your max heart rate. You can go longer and recover better. It won't interfere with leg day as much.
    I have been doing the cardio progression for the last month with the 8 week trainer, so from 20 min 2x per day 7 days a week to currently 40 min cardio 2x per day 7 days a week - all at 60-75% MHR. My workouts seem to be alright as long as I do them later in the day and keep the cardio steady state at 60-75% of my MHR.


    As for the split - its been a 5 day bro split, so I'd be going from that to the push/pull/legs split once I start the bulk (I realize now that this is totally backwards but whatever, I'm a newb). My thinking is that push/pull/legs will give me 6 workout days every 8 days - which is high frequency high volume. Is this not superior to doing 4 workouts over a 7 day period presuming I am getting adequate nutrition/recovering? I love lifting and want to spend as many days out of the week in the gym while obtaining the greatest mass gain possible (obviously). I will probably post a specific thread about this a week out from my bulk but I'd love to hear your thoughts (and others').
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  12. #12
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by userFXZ1FCRS99Z View Post
    I have been doing the cardio progression for the last month with the 8 week trainer, so from 20 min 2x per day 7 days a week to currently 40 min cardio 2x per day 7 days a week - all at 60-75% MHR. My workouts seem to be alright as long as I do them later in the day and keep the cardio steady state at 60-75% of my MHR.


    As for the split - its been a 5 day bro split, so I'd be going from that to the push/pull/legs split once I start the bulk (I realize now that this is totally backwards but whatever, I'm a newb). My thinking is that push/pull/legs will give me 6 workout days every 8 days - which is high frequency high volume. Is this not superior to doing 4 workouts over a 7 day period presuming I am getting adequate nutrition/recovering? I love lifting and want to spend as many days out of the week in the gym while obtaining the greatest mass gain possible (obviously). I will probably post a specific thread about this a week out from my bulk but I'd love to hear your thoughts (and others').
    Good job on the cardio. I'm trying to do 3-4 thirty minute sessions and counting my lifting sessions as sessions. I tried 70% and found it competed with my leg workout. Your fitness may be higher than mine. I tried 60 minute sessions at 60%, but my hamstrings started complaining. I've been switching it around, zeroing in on the best starting sessions for me.

    I'm too stubburn to start at 2x per day expecially 20 minutes, but I know I'd be further along now had I done that. I think I can do 3-4x, thirty minutes, 60%, but will have to see what my hamstrings say about that. I might cut to 3x on some days.

    Good decision leaving the bro split. I hate having sore muscles for 4 days straight. Full body 3x per week works for me. I do upper body, go home and eat, rest an hour, then come back for upper body, and eat most my fats in the evenings and on my off/cardio days.

    Nice to know you are getting by with 7x per week. That emboldens me to keep trying.


    Today I burned 450 calories... well, I need to subtract how many I would have burned had I been sitting. So probably only burned 300 if that.

    Currently I'm losing 1/2 pound per week and am happy with that as long as my lifts and recovery keep improving.
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    Registered User Duderguybro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Good job on the cardio. I'm trying to do 3-4 thirty minute sessions and counting my lifting sessions as sessions. I tried 70% and found it competed with my leg workout. Your fitness may be higher than mine. I tried 60 minute sessions at 60%, but my hamstrings started complaining. I've been switching it around, zeroing in on the best starting sessions for me.

    I'm too stubburn to start at 2x per day expecially 20 minutes, but I know I'd be further along now had I done that. I think I can do 3-4x, thirty minutes, 60%, but will have to see what my hamstrings say about that. I might cut to 3x on some days.

    Good decision leaving the bro split. I hate having sore muscles for 4 days straight. Full body 3x per week works for me. I do upper body, go home and eat, rest an hour, then come back for upper body, and eat most my fats in the evenings and on my off/cardio days.

    Nice to know you are getting by with 7x per week. That emboldens me to keep trying.


    Today I burned 450 calories... well, I need to subtract how many I would have burned had I been sitting. So probably only burned 300 if that.

    Currently I'm losing 1/2 pound per week and am happy with that as long as my lifts and recovery keep improving.

    I have been losing at a rate of about 2-3 lbs per week eating around 220g protein, 160g carbs and 40g fat. I am at the point where I can see my abs and I’ve never been this lean, so I’m wanting to adjust to bulking. I am fighting the impulse to go anywhere near maintenance and finish this last month of my cut

    As for the cardio, I mostly do the elliptical and just put Netflix on with my iPhone on the panel or something to pass the time. Tonight I did my 40 mins running around my city which is less mundane, but his plan progresses to doing cardio 2x a day at 55 min each. I don’t really care to go that high and think it’s probably overtraining territory after 7 weeks without a day off.

    I do like the idea of doing full body 3x a week with 2 a days like you mentioned. Maybe I should start there with the bulk and see if I can get the volume/recovery balanced out to see some sick gainz
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    Originally Posted by Duderguybro View Post
    I have been losing at a rate of about 2-3 lbs per week eating around 220g protein, 160g carbs and 40g fat. I am at the point where I can see my abs and I’ve never been this lean, so I’m wanting to adjust to bulking. I am fighting the impulse to go anywhere near maintenance and finish this last month of my cut

    As for the cardio, I mostly do the elliptical and just put Netflix on with my iPhone on the panel or something to pass the time. Tonight I did my 40 mins running around my city which is less mundane, but his plan progresses to doing cardio 2x a day at 55 min each. I don’t really care to go that high and think it’s probably overtraining territory after 7 weeks without a day off.

    I do like the idea of doing full body 3x a week with 2 a days like you mentioned. Maybe I should start there with the bulk and see if I can get the volume/recovery balanced out to see some sick gainz

    2-3 pounds per week is faster than the 1% speed limit, especially now that you are lean. But if it works for you, and your lifts go up, all I'll say is be careful not to lose muscle. Also intersting how low your fat intake is. Fat is for testosterone, building blocks, and vitamins.

    I thought about using the elliptical so I could include my chest and back in the fat burn. But it does take more coordination to use. Bike and treadmill are easier, and I can do some rowing, though I think it burns fewer calories.


    Only increase cardio 10% per week, if that. And sounds like you no longer need it after all that fat loss.
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