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  1. #1
    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Is "CICO" a well-kept secret?

    In hindsight, it's so obvious as a basic principle of science... yet there is an endless slew of gimmicky diets stretching back decades and many people get hung up on them and seem to have an actual cognitive difficulty seeing through them to comprehend that fat storage is the function of a simple energy equation with no way around it.

    Since being lean and fit is desirable to literally almost everyone, there's obviously a huge financial incentive to sell snake oil or otherwise offer some kind of promised shortcut and as we all know, a huge industry has developed around it oftentimes doing just that. But, if most people understood this, *poof* no exploitable market...

    So it makes me wonder if the apparent difficulty so many seem to have accepting this basic concept has more to do with the saturation of marketing and possibly the attempt to hide the simplicity of it, or instead just human nature's natural desire to look for an easy alternative to hard work which is guaranteed to work?

    I believed a lot of that stuff too until I spent a decent amount of time on this forum, and am kind of surprised that I didn't already know better, which seems to testify to how powerful the effect on subtle convictions hearsay can be.

    Thoughts?
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    Registered User paulinkansas's Avatar
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    People generally pick the path of least resistance. Buying someone's book or following a program that someone is touting is the path of least resistance. Some tenant of mine had taken off the panel of the breaker box and was fiddling with the fuses. He must have hit one of the hot busses because the ensuing shock sent him across the room. That's the path of lease resistance. It was a 200 amp box, which is basically a hot wire from a powerline.
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Not really, if you put it in terms of "eat less to lose weight". Not including this forum, the majority of people don't like dieting any more than they like exercising.

    So a lot of the "market" you're talking about addresses the psychological side - of motivation, being mentally (& financially invested), doing something innovative/trendy, etc. It satisfies a need to do "something", whether or not it ultimately works in the short or long term.

    It's similar to exercise & why people hire trainers or buy a talking video mirror instead of learning any basics. Many people pay for these things just to have a reason to exercise in the first place, it's less about the results.
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    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    I think people believe the hell out of calories out because calories in is too much of a cramp on their lifestyles.
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    Registered User DougyF7's Avatar
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    I see all the different diets as options for people, even if they are not really necessary.

    You could try and tell someone until you are blue in the face that CICO works, but if they tried keto and lost weight that way, they will likely think it was from eating mainly fat and less carbs.

    To be fair, CICO isn't everything. Hierarchically it is more important than macronutrients in terms of losing weight, but those are sort of next in line. You couldn't eat only carbs and have a good physique I wouldn't think.
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    Its like that with everything. There is a sucker born every minute and 10 people waiting to scam that sucker out of their hard earned dollars. I used to work with a girl that would buy every exercise machine and diet pill on every infomercial she saw the Homegym, bow flex, the gazelle, you name it. She had it all sent to the office so I saw everything. But she wouldn’t use any machine and would try the pills for a couple weeks. She would tell me she tried everything and just couldn’t lose weight. I told her it’s all about calories in vs calories out but she said that’s too much work. Same thing happens with almost everything. If you’ve ever tried to learn a language you will find all kinds of books and high priced programs of “secrets that no one else knows” about how to become fluent in 30 days or 3 months or whatever other claim that sounds too good to be true, and is.

    I have found over the decades that most people want an excuse for their failure. They want to blame their genetics or something out of their control. If they “try everything” then they have an excuse for their failure.
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  7. #7
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    CICO is too easy of a concept so how the hell can people make money off that.
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    Super Spreader desslok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    CICO is too easy of a concept so how the hell can people make money off that.
    Well, technically hospitals do. Doctor refers you to RD and they put you on a diet and exercise program and bill your insurance a few grand each time you go in.
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    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Its like that with everything. There is a sucker born every minute and 10 people waiting to scam that sucker out of their hard earned dollars. I used to work with a girl that would buy every exercise machine and diet pill on every infomercial she saw the Homegym, bow flex, the gazelle, you name it. She had it all sent to the office so I saw everything. But she wouldn’t use any machine and would try the pills for a couple weeks. She would tell me she tried everything and just couldn’t lose weight. I told her it’s all about calories in vs calories out but she said that’s too much work. Same thing happens with almost everything. If you’ve ever tried to learn a language you will find all kinds of books and high priced programs of “secrets that no one else knows” about how to become fluent in 30 days or 3 months or whatever other claim that sounds too good to be true, and is.

    I have found over the decades that most people want an excuse for their failure. They want to blame their genetics or something out of their control. If they “try everything” then they have an excuse for their failure.
    What gets me though, is they have to know they're lying to themselves, surely. That disconnect in the mind just doesn't make sense to me.

    I have been studying German for 6 years and am only this year able to read/hold a decent conversation at length without any assistance. The "royal road" promised instant shortcuts there amuse me, because not only are they not going to work, they wouldn't offer any kind of grammatical understanding anyway. So, you wouldn't meaningfully "know" the language or its mechanics in the first place. What then is the goal?
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  10. #10
    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Well, technically hospitals do. Doctor refers you to RD and they put you on a diet and exercise program and bill your insurance a few grand each time you go in.
    That speaks more to the healthcare system as a whole than doctors specifically. Most doctors are not going to make any significant extra money by referring to a RD. The issue is most doctors don't know this stuff well enough to be able to get across the important practical points quickly, there isn't much time to talk about this at general visits, and then many patients don't apply the information anyway. Seeing an RD will allow more time to discuss. As an aside, I'm in a hospital system myself and whether I refer to 0 specialists or 1000 specialists has no bearing at all on my paycheck/end of year bonus//anything else related to my job.

    Separately, there are some physicians/scientists who actively promote it's not CICO: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/advanc...qab270/6369073 I disagree with that viewpoint, strongly, but nonetheless it exists. When lay people hear mixed messages then it's hard to latch onto the truth.

    Another factor is that much of the general public doesn't know anything whatsoever about calories that is practical. They will know calories exist and that "too many calories are bad", but then they may think drinking a lot of fruit juice is healthy without having any realization that fruit juice has calories and can contribute to weight gain when consumed in excess.

    I do not disagree with the above posts though regarding many people just looking for an easy way out or not wanting to put in the work. Just pointing out there are other factors too.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I have been studying German for 6 years and am only this year able to read/hold a decent conversation at length without any assistance. The "royal road" promised instant shortcuts there amuse me, because not only are they not going to work, they wouldn't offer any kind of grammatical understanding anyway. So, you wouldn't meaningfully "know" the language or its mechanics in the first place. What then is the goal?
    The true test is when you're willing to put it on your resume as fluent in that language and can do a job interview for a company solely in that language in that country.

    Many have done the first, and have gotten laughed out of the office on the second.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I have been studying German for 6 years and am only this year able to read/hold a decent conversation at length without any assistance. The "royal road" promised instant shortcuts there amuse me, because not only are they not going to work, they wouldn't offer any kind of grammatical understanding anyway. So, you wouldn't meaningfully "know" the language or its mechanics in the first place. What then is the goal?
    Yeah that’s why I know anything labeled fluent in x days/weeks/months is complete BS. I studied German for a few years while traveling there several times a year for a week or two at a time and can barely hold a basic conversation. Now I am learning Japanese and anything that says fluent Japanese in 30 days is hilarious. I’d be lucky just to master hiragana and katakana in 30 days. With languages though everyone has a different goal. Some people want to converse, some people want to watch anime or manga without subtitles, some people want to read classics in the original language etc. I will say though what is possible in 30 days is learning enough to go as a tourist and ask basic directions, introduce yourself, buy something at a store etc. except in Germany where everyone instantly knows you are foreign upon first glance and will just speak English since their English will be better than your german. I only had one little shop let me speak entirely in german through our whole transaction, it was an old man in a small village so I am guessing he forgot the English he learned in school.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I do not disagree with the above posts though regarding many people just looking for an easy way out or not wanting to put in the work. Just pointing out there are other factors too.
    There's a commercial here in the US for one of those heartburn relief medications where the guy is at some barbecue stuffing his face with ribs, stuffed peppers, etc. and feeling sick - then he takes the medication & goes right back to stuffing his face happily.

    Not a diet commercial, but encompasses the mentality that most people are looking for the diet solution that allows them to eat what & how much they want.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    and can barely hold a basic conversation
    I speak on the phone with Cajun and Coonass people. I can barely understand some of them. When I meet them in person, it's a little easier to understand what they are saying because I also read their body language.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    That speaks more to the healthcare system as a whole than doctors specifically. Most doctors are not going to make any significant extra money by referring to a RD. The issue is most doctors don't know this stuff well enough to be able to get across the important practical points quickly, there isn't much time to talk about this at general visits, and then many patients don't apply the information anyway. Seeing an RD will allow more time to discuss. As an aside, I'm in a hospital system myself and whether I refer to 0 specialists or 1000 specialists has no bearing at all on my paycheck/end of year bonus//anything else related to my job.
    .
    Oh I know. Wasn’t rubbing at Doctors, was mainly about healthcare system and why insurance is unaffordable for most people. I used to do medical billing a couple years in college for then girlfriend’s dad who was a doctor.
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    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    I speak on the phone with Cajun and Coonass people. I can barely understand some of them. When I meet them in person, it's a little easier to understand what they are saying because I also read their body language.
    I work in IT. As things have gotten outsourced to India after a few years of daily conversations I am now able understand about 50% of the conversations. Much improved from the 0% a few years ago.
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    People want an excuse for not seeing progress that is anything other than their fault.

    Therefore, they deny basic math.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    People want an excuse for not seeing progress that is anything other than their fault.

    Therefore, they deny basic math.
    "I'm not losing weight because my bones are heavy".

    Also, lots of people who say "CICO" doesn't work claim they 100% stick to the formula, but if you followed them around every day you would 100% find them cheating here and there with a "treat" that doesn't count.
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    Originally Posted by Spyrith View Post
    "I'm not losing weight because my bones are heavy".

    Also, lots of people who say "CICO" doesn't work claim they 100% stick to the formula, but if you followed them around every day you would 100% find them cheating here and there with a "treat" that doesn't count.
    But that's the thing that puzzles me: they know that, so who are they trying to fool? It's almost like they're knowingly telling you a lie about how they've tried everything, in the hopes that you, in your ignorance of their real eating habits, agree and endorse the notion.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    But that's the thing that puzzles me: they know that, so who are they trying to fool? It's almost like they're knowingly telling you a lie about how they've tried everything, in the hopes that you, in your ignorance of their real eating habits, agree and endorse the notion.
    People lie to themselves all of the time, about all kinds of things. Its basic human nature.
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    People want to be lean but don't want to do what it takes to be lean hence all the books that state that calories don't matter. People will try ANYTHING except what it really takes.
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    Yeah, I guess that's all it is...

    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    People lie to themselves all of the time, about all kinds of things. Its basic human nature.
    For all my other shortcomings, I couldn't bold-face lie to myself about something I know is true, like claiming I've tried everything when I clearly haven't. I don't think it's that openly acceptable either, hence people being called out for being in denial, etc.

    "Softer" lies to oneself seem more normal, like "I'm not that fat." or whatever else.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    People lie to themselves all of the time, about all kinds of things. Its basic human nature.
    This.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

    - Richard Feynman
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    But that's the thing that puzzles me: they know that, so who are they trying to fool? It's almost like they're knowingly telling you a lie about how they've tried everything, in the hopes that you, in your ignorance of their real eating habits, agree and endorse the notion.
    "the first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool"

    EDIT: wasn't sure who had this in their sig, turns out it's the guy who just posted before me lol
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Yeah, I guess that's all it is...



    For all my other shortcomings, I couldn't bold-face lie to myself about something I know is true, like claiming I've tried everything when I clearly haven't. I don't think it's that openly acceptable either, hence people being called out for being in denial, etc.

    "Softer" lies to oneself seem more normal, like "I'm not that fat." or whatever else.

    You would be one of the only ones then. There is possibly a survival reason for this

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-019-0666-7

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...eceive-others/
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    You would be one of the only ones then. There is possibly a survival reason for this

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-019-0666-7

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...eceive-others/
    I love that paper. Would rep but on spread.

    I think a lot of human «biases» are adaptations.
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    Interesting article, but as far as the abstract goes, it didn't differentiate between maintaining a positive self-image (which would include "soft" deceit - "I'm not actually that fat, so it wouldn't be a good idea for me to put forth the effort to lose weight") and then complete delusion about the actual facts of something, like saying "I've tried everything and nothing works" when that's blatantly false.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Interesting article, but as far as the abstract goes, it didn't differentiate between maintaining a positive self-image (which would include "soft" deceit - "I'm not actually that fat, so it wouldn't be a good idea for me to put forth the effort to lose weight") and then complete delusion about the actual facts of something, like saying "I've tried everything and nothing works" when that's blatantly false.
    True. The second one mentions that there are 3 main types of self deception but the study that they reference focuses on the first. However, just look at divorce rates. People get divorced every day, even though they have “tried everything” and the only option is divorce. By “tried everything “ what they mean is that they bought a book on how to save your marriage. Imagine if they had actually read it! Then they would have tried 2x everything!
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    People get divorced every day, even though they have “tried everything”
    I like the story of the married couple that went to see a marriage counselor. Then one of the couple has an affair with the counselor.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    True. The second one mentions that there are 3 main types of self deception but the study that they reference focuses on the first. However, just look at divorce rates. People get divorced every day, even though they have “tried everything” and the only option is divorce. By “tried everything “ what they mean is that they bought a book on how to save your marriage. Imagine if they had actually read it! Then they would have tried 2x everything!
    Yeah, that one's a peeve of mine in particular. At my job I see them all the time, too. In fact, one of the most horrible people I've ever had to deal with literally divorced his wife because she was disabled and he didn't want to deal with it, but couched it in terms of how it was "mutual" etc., but he was one of the most horrible, selfish people I have ever encountered. That really disgusts me. Or when people try to divert their own decision to being the will of "God" or some meaningless portent.

    Nine times out of ten, it's feckless people backing out of a solemn commitment they made. And the fact that they lack the integrity to call it that and instead euphemize it with pathetic lies, is disgusting to me.

    I'm probably not going to get married just because statistically "something against would-be wife's will" is going to result in that outcome, probably with an undeserved loss of property as well.
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