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  1. #31
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Well, I have to say, that you seem to be following a well-structured program. 16-20 reps is too many for you to be working with sufficient resistance for optimal hypertrophy or strength, however.

    Watch OP post an avi or upload a lift that puts all of us to shame lol.
    20 reps is suboptimal for strength, but not suboptimal for hypertrophy if taken to failure. You are correct many people think they are close to failure when they are not. High reps have lots of burn and deception. But I now make sure. Better for my joints too.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Well, I have to say, that you seem to be following a well-structured program. 16-20 reps is too many for you to be working with sufficient resistance for optimal hypertrophy or strength, however.

    Watch OP post an avi or upload a lift that puts all of us to shame lol.
    this is what i thought too. if anything, focusing on stuff like this could give OP a real boost in gains - not to mention perfecting his form and making sure the reps are good quality
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by faithbrah View Post
    this is what i thought too. if anything, focusing on stuff like this could give OP a real boost in gains - not to mention perfecting his form and making sure the reps are good quality
    Yes, certainly. If he has bad form or doesn't even have a tested max, it makes these questions of programming kind of useless.

    OP, if you are completely unwilling to do a successful, prewritten program, then at least do 3x5s, 5x5s, 4x8s, 3x12s, etc., at a comparable intensity and on a variation for each exercise. I promise you that any of these are going to be better than 16-20 reps.

    And I think you are underestimating the extent to which everyone here is actually trying to help you, if you would listen.
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  4. #34
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Yes, certainly. If he has bad form or doesn't even have a tested max, it makes these questions of programming kind of useless.

    OP, if you are completely unwilling to do a successful, prewritten program, then at least do 3x5s, 5x5s, 4x8s, 3x12s, etc., at a comparable intensity and on a variation for each exercise. I promise you that any of these are going to be better than 16-20 reps.

    And I think you are underestimating the extent to which everyone here is actually trying to help you, if you would listen.

    What you say here contradicts the studies other experts posted on this forum elsewhere. I think you underestimate how much I've been reading.

    The 8-12 rep myth came from people not going all the way to failure at higher reps. Failure is easier to find at 8-12.
    As for those 5 rep programs, those are for maximum strength gain speed and not appropriate for someone with injuries.



    You even speculate that I don't have a tested max, when I already stated I go to failure... ah, maybe I did not tell you I tested at 10 reps and 16 reps and both predict the same 1RM. I'm well passed assuming where failure is. If I can't grind a rep out in 6 seconds, that is failure.
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  5. #35
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    People with injuries are not capable of reaching muscular failure for the purposes of hypertrophy training in the affected movements.

    Also, reading =/= comprehension.
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  6. #36
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    Guys, OP has previously stated on a deleted thread that his injuries came from both missile & martial arts accidents from his days in the Marines (presumably when he was raising the flag at Iwo Jima & went AWOL to fight Chong Li in the Kumite). Show some respect.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    ... I think you underestimate how much I've been reading.

    The 8-12 rep myth came from people not going all the way to failure at higher reps. Failure is easier to find at 8-12. ...

    You even speculate that I don't have a tested max, when I already stated I go to failure... ah, maybe I did not tell you I tested at 10 reps and 16 reps and both predict the same 1RM. I'm well passed assuming where failure is. If I can't grind a rep out in 6 seconds, that is failure.
    Lol, you can't use a projected 1RM... That would be pretty cool. I'd be benching over 350. But funny thing, I can't actually do that for a single, so I won't pretentiously presume that I can until I actually achieve it.

    What experts disagree with what I said?
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    I think you underestimate how much I've been reading.
    Nobody here underestimates how much you've been reading. It's about how much of what you read you actually understand well enough to apply to training in a meaningful way.
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  9. #39
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Lol, you can't use a projected 1RM... That would be pretty cool. I'd be benching over 350. But funny thing, I can't actually do that for a single, so I won't pretentiously presume that I can until I actually achieve it.

    What experts disagree with what I said?

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=180685543


    https://youtu.be/lu_BObG6dj8


    Maybe not to calculate 1RM, but accurately enough to predict 20RM from 8RM and 12RM being in agreement. I don't need to know the exact number. I just need to land with 1-2 reps of failure on each set and now about how far away failure is when I push for failure on test days.

    You can also hit hypertrophy sets every time just by stopping when your last rep is more than twice as long as your first, and I mean the part where you move against the force. For most weights, a 5 second grind can also count as failure for hypertrophy purposes. Where people mess up is thinking burn and challenge indicate being near failure, or slacking one rep slow and thinking that counts as half speed when full effort would move it at more than half speed.


    Just about every expert agrees that 3RM to 40RM can produce hypotrophy equally fast. Just 8-12 is more comfortable and more likely to be executed consistently. I can handle the burn of 20RM, but not 30RM. I don't know how researchers got anyone to do 40RM. Sounds brutal.
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  10. #40
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    Many a great physique has been built based on time surfing the Web. Plus it takes an extraordinary amount of reading combined with lack of experience in the gym to be this FoS.
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  11. #41
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Where people also mess up is thinking this matters when lifetime maxes on any lift hovers around bw and below. It's just inefficient cardio at that stage.
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  12. #42
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Where people also mess up is thinking this matters when lifetime maxes on any lift hovers around bw and below. It's just inefficient cardio at that stage.
    I haven't max deadlifted, but how much I comforably do 3 reps of 10 has been going up 20 pounds per session, 60, 80, 105. I haven't even gone near failure yet. Beginner gains are sweet.




    Color me stupid, but I just learned recently that if I eat before a cardio session, my heart rate is 20bpm lower at every intensity level. Also, I wonder if eating a potato 30 minutes before my workout is why my grip easily handled the extra weight this time but strugged with 80 last time. This proves that slow twitch fibers love sugar if they can get it, and that their contribution is non negligible. That or just beginner gains.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    I haven't max deadlifted, but how much I comforably do 3 reps of 10 has been going up 20 pounds per session, 60, 80, 105. I haven't even gone near failure yet. Beginner gains are sweet.
    You're not a point where you can actually reach meaningful failure. Those numbers are pretty low, even for an untrained individual.

    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Color me stupid, but I just learned recently that if I eat before a cardio session, my heart rate is 20bpm lower at every intensity level. Also, I wonder if eating a potato 30 minutes before my workout is why my grip easily handled the extra weight this time but strugged with 80 last time. This proves that slow twitch fibers love sugar if they can get it, and that their contribution is non negligible. That or just beginner gains.
    Bro science.
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Bro science.
    I think bros would be offended that you think this meets their level of science.
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  15. #45
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    You're not a point where you can actually reach meaningful failure. Those numbers are pretty low, even for an untrained individual.



    Bro science.
    I have a hunch back and have to be very careful not to hurt it. My muscles did not feel worked at 105. Right now I'm getting my form down and gradually going higher. I've felt a few warning pains when my back was not straight enough.



    The trainer for Will Smith, the action movie actor, started him at just the 45 pound bar. Because that trainer knows how important form is and to not rush into this.


    Most warehouse workers are told not to lift boxes with their backs. They can if they know what they are doing, but it is risky for untrained people using the wrong form.
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  16. #46
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    I have a hunch back and have to be very careful not to hurt it. My muscles did not feel worked at 105. Right now I'm getting my form down and gradually going higher. I've felt a few warning pains when my back was not straight enough.



    The trainer for Will Smith, the action movie actor, started him at just the 45 pound bar. Because that trainer knows how important form is and to not rush into this.
    If you're training movement patterns and technique, you're training training movement patterns and technique, not for hypertrophy.

    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Most warehouse workers are told not to lift boxes with their backs. They can if they know what they are doing, but it is risky for untrained people using the wrong form.
    Irrelevant. Warehouse workers are moving boxes, not training.
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Color me stupid, but I just learned recently that if I eat before a cardio session, my heart rate is 20bpm lower at every intensity level. Also, I wonder if eating a potato 30 minutes before my workout is why my grip easily handled the extra weight this time but strugged with 80 last time. This proves that slow twitch fibers love sugar if they can get it, and that their contribution is non negligible. That or just beginner gains.
    That's not....that's not how this works
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    Originally Posted by bLinkMoore View Post
    That's not....that's not how this works
    What gets me is OP apparently manages a warehouse and yet reasons like this...

    I'm thinking there might be a language barrier going on which is making some of these statements appear exaggerated. Either way, I think I'm out now.
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    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    I never said I manage a warehouse. I worked at one briefly, but I doubt I mentioned that.




    I finished reading the paper. It is shorter than it looks. Mostly references, which I bet are worth reading to see how they were done.

    Some take aways:

    1. During excess blood sugar, muscle prefers to spare glycogen and use sugar for sugar needs. So there is a dietary threshold that won't slow fat burn. But dump more glucose in at once and then fat burn will reduce.

    2. Some of this I got elsewhere. Glycogen is a fractal and fills and releases fastest when it is nearly full. It never gets empty. It supplies exponentially less sugar over time. The body then gets energy from protein, phasing in at 5% around maybe 45 minutes, 10% at 2 hours, and 20% at 3 hours of 75% heart rate.

    3. You can stave off protein burn and last much longer if you sip carbohydrate during your workout. You won't stimulate your glycogen capacity to grow as much.

    4. Glycogen supplies are proportional to muscle mass and also can double in density. So an athlete has twice the density of glycogen per pound muscle.



    So, I do my low intensity cardio for 20 minutes and then start sipping juice after that at 100 cal per hour. I now can more easily hit 2 hours, though I do alternate between treadmill and bicycle.



    I eat potatos and fruit 30 minutes before my weight workouts, and eat high carb low fat those day. Then I eat high fat low carb on my rest days to stimulate testosterone. This steategy is not mentioned in that article. I sip juice during my 3 LISS sessions on my off days. I wonder if I can get protein to absorb then too. Probably just by a meal that empties right before the LISS.



    Yes, I realize I'm thinking in a complicated way, but I'm not convinced I know a better way. It would be nice to supply the 100 cal per hour with a regular meal such as outmeal. I just like how I have pinpoint control over sipping juice. Glycogen is a buffer, though, so maybe precise control is not needed. I'll think about that more.






    ...



    For those of you against all this cardio, my alternative was to drop from "1800" calories down to "1300" just to lose a pound per week. I prefer to take in more nutrition. Cutting calories makes more sense for a full time worker who can't be at the gym half the day.
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    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-014-0054-7

    Fasted cardio has no benefit over non-fasted. In fact, it can be detrimental in the long term as you're ramping up cortisol levels while doing cardio in a fasted state.
    "The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." -Henry Rollins
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mdonnelly80 View Post
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-014-0054-7

    Fasted cardio has no benefit over non-fasted. In fact, it can be detrimental in the long term as you're ramping up cortisol levels while doing cardio in a fasted state.
    OP prob operates at artificially elevated cortisol levels 24/7. He should do some research on that and its effect on muscle & fat.
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  22. #52
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mdonnelly80 View Post
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-014-0054-7

    Fasted cardio has no benefit over non-fasted. In fact, it can be detrimental in the long term as you're ramping up cortisol levels while doing cardio in a fasted state.
    That's only true if glycogen is empty. My proposition is fasted cardio with full glycogen.


    I now suspect non fasted cardio can have the same effect as long as the glucose spike is very mild such as from spread out low glycemic meals.



    As for those saying timing does not matter (but who said above that it can matter), you have 3 points in your favor:
    1. If glycogen is full and a meal supplies still more glucose, that glucose won't decrease fat burn at first; the muscle will spare glycogen and only use blood sugar above that in place of fat.
    2. If glycogen is empty, duetary glucose will fill it first, though I don't know if fat cells compete or if glycogen can be synthesized during exercise.
    3. If glycogen is full and a meal is skipped, the glycogen can supply needs for a while, and once lower will take most the carbs of the next meal.

    So, the body has plenty of buffering ability within reason.



    However, if a meal is large and high glycemic, it can reduce fat burn during exercise. And if exercise is long and intense (maybe too much for the fitness level anyway), muscle protein will be used, but will stimulate growth of glycogen capacity.



    So within reason, you can say carb/fat/exercise timing don't matter, and that where they do matter, you still get positives like increased insulin sensitivity or increased glycogen capacity for later.


    For more extensive exertion, it becomes more important to clump carb consumption near the burn time.





    As for night time protein, it is clear that even on a bulk with icecream for dinner and full glycogen, you will lose muscle at night to your other body tissues. If you don't want to lose those gains, you need to take a small amount of protein at night to support body tissues especially guts.
    Last edited by Darkius; 10-28-2021 at 03:01 PM.
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  23. #53
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    As for my plan to burn calories via cardio. Even with carb drinks, I think muscle fiber break down may be an issue. Sugar can keep me going 8 hours, but muscles might need repair the next day.


    I learned that the closer you get to failure, the more tear happens and exponentially so. If my goal is simply to burn calories and avoid tear down and not care about growth stimulous, a safe way to boost performance is with half sets spread out. That means cycling for 30 minutes, rest 30, walk 30, rest 30, cycle 30, or similar, as opposed to 2 hour sessions. Spread like that, I could just power walk around the block and eat normal food.

    Each 30 minute session will burn 100 calories of fat and 50 of carb, so I'll up my carb intake by 50 grams, or even 40 carb 10 protein to stimulate more muscle repair. Four of those per day puts me almost on track to burn a pound of fat per week without hunger or reduced muscle gains.



    ....

    Edit: I learned that when interpretting a 300 calorie cycle burn, one must substract how many calories would have been burned just sitting or doing you other standard activity your maintainance calories were average calculated on. Further more, the sitting has a higher fat ratio, which means the 300 minus 100 calories added by exercise is mostly carbs.

    So, I now recommend replacing only half the carbs and accepting a carb deficit, a 50-50 split between extra burn and fasting.

    I still differ from most body builders in that I advocate steady state cardio in the 60-70% heart rate range, though people can throw in some intervals if they are not intense enough to affect leg workouts.

    When starting cardio, it still needs to be built up to, even though there technically is no failure point. For adding more volume sooner, I recommend multiple 30 minute sessions instead of 60 minute sessions, which need to be built up to if you want to do them often. To avoid wrecking your body building, add in some juice or just eat more carbs, etc, and again, build up to it. Super high intensity intervals count as leg sets as far as recovery goes but not helpful to hypertrophy.
    Last edited by Darkius; 10-28-2021 at 08:41 PM.
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    OP as before I highly recommend you read this and actually start applying the advice:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=122509811

    You are obsessing about things that may matter for people who are close to their full potential and/or dedicating their lives to bodybuilding; you are not them.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

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    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Next, I figured out why correct dieting often leads to rebound (not from lowered metabolism, which bad dieting does too).


    When you exercise, you burn glycogen and stimulate your body to build bigger glycogen stores. The larger capacity can store larger blood sugar spikes and supply energy longer without burning muscle. This helps you keep muscle on, keep fat off, and not feel hungry. You feel hungry when glycogen gets low and protein (your muscles) enter the cross hairs. Diet coaches then tell you to resist the urge to eat. I say give your muscles the carbs they need to exercise, no more, and let them burn fat. And don't do all the exercise at once and tear them down. Do several smaller boughts of mostly low intensity. You can do some high intensity too, such as weight training, as long as you don't overtrain and do get enough carbs and protein.



    So, my morning cardio will now only be 30. I don't think fasting is critical as long as I did not eat a big meal or chug a high glycemic meal.
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    As for my plan to burn calories via cardio. Even with carb drinks, I think muscle fiber break down may be an issue. Sugar can keep me going 8 hours, but muscles might need repair the next day.


    I learned that the closer you get to failure, the more tear happens and exponentially so. If my goal is simply to burn calories and avoid tear down and not care about growth stimulous, a safe way to boost performance is with half sets spread out. That means cycling for 30 minutes, rest 30, walk 30, rest 30, cycle 30, or similar, as opposed to 2 hour sessions. Spread like that, I could just power walk around the block and eat normal food.

    Each 30 minute session will burn 100 calories of fat and 50 of carb, so I'll up my carb intake by 50 grams, or even 40 carb 10 protein to stimulate more muscle repair. Four of those per day puts me almost on track to burn a pound of fat per week without hunger or reduced muscle gains.
    you can also burn a pound of fat per week by eating in a 500 calorie deficit and lifting hard. i don't want to say that you're misunderstanding all these studies that i haven't even read, but i can nearly guarantee you that in a parallel universe, another version of you is ignoring this fancy stuff and just trains hard in a deficit. in 1-2 years you meet this dude (the other you) and he looks exactly the same as you. you then ask yourself "was it worth it?"

    also, ever wonder why even pros don't do this stuff in contest prep?
    Last edited by faithbrah; 10-28-2021 at 04:08 PM.
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  27. #57
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    It's painfully obvious that he's just trolling now.
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
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    Pretty sure it's a diff issue than trolling sadly.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    OP as before I highly recommend you read this and actually start applying the advice:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=122509811

    You are obsessing about things that may matter for people who are close to their full potential and/or dedicating their lives to bodybuilding; you are not them.

    Yes, thanks, already read that a month ago.

    I think I'm done obsessing and found my strategy to weight loss. I'll walk around the 1.5 mile loop between working from home sessions, and alternate with 3 on my bike, and get carbs around those times. Fasted cardio is optional. And I'll have slow protein at night. Simple.


    Between that and my full body MWF weight training, and I should be fine.


    Ill let you all know if my low intensity cardio burns off this fat or not. I suspect my muscle gains will be higher with the extra food, and doubt the daily deficit is what stops muscle gains. I think dieting stops muscle gains. Running on low glycogen or less fat or less protein stops muscle gains. I could be wrong, but I'm giving this a try. I'm a former cross country runner and hate sitting on my but between weight lifting sessions, and I want to increase my hiking range so I can go more interesting places.
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    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    And TolerantLactose just negged me. Very immature, and the reason anyone who questions anything stays quiet. Fine. I'll leave this thread for the lurkers. I found the info I want and now will take a break from the forum.
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