Wide stance squats for longevity

[Ironface]

I don’t remember where exactly, but I have read from numerous sources recently that wide stance squats are better from a longevity perspective, particularly in regards to knee health.

The idea seems to stem from the belief that “Olympic” style squatting (high bar, close stance, lots of forward knee travel) puts greater stress on the knee joint and over time this is more likely to lead to overuse related injuries, compared to a wider stance with the hips being pushed further back.

Louie Simmons is also quoted as saying “wide squats carry over to narrow, but not the other way around” due to increased muscle involvement in wide stance. The idea here is that while close stance is more quad dominant than wide, the quads are seldom the limiting factor in a squat and the wide stance increases involvement of the bigger workhorse muscles - glutes, hamstrings, hips, abductors and adductors.

Interested to see everyones’ thoughts on this

[Darkius]

My trainer says wide stance hurts less.

I say the wider the stance, the more you should angle your feet out so they line up with your knee direction, which will be more outward with a wider stance. Think how your upper legs connect at your rear when parallel to the ground.


I do feel pain with regular squats due to knees going forward of the toes or side to side or wrong angle. So, I bend foreward to balance as I sit my rear further back as though sitting on a pot. That is the recommended form, and I know why since I'm already nursing bad knees. Martial arts injury.

Imagine a column that comes straight up from the edges of your shoes. Make sure your knee stays inside that column. My trainer told me, and my knees confirm it.


A wide stance is more likely to land you in the right place automatically, since it is hard to go too far forward in a wide stance. But it is possible to safely do a regular squat as long as you lean down and move your rear back like sitting on a toilet. Just have to consciously do that is all.

[EliKoehn]

Makes sense to me... The only thing that strikes me as a bit odd is saying that the quads aren't the Achilles heel of the lift. For me they are, at least.

[Darkius]

The most likely way people will mess up a wide stance is by starting with their feet parallel.


Sit on a low stool that makes your upper legs almost parallel to the ground so you can see which way they point. Where shorts so you can see where your knee caps point. Point your feet that way.

Your heels say how wide, and your toes say what directions. For shoulder width, likely 30 degrees. For wider stance, likely 45 degrees.

Now stand up a bit and push the stool out of the way. You are now standing correctly for the squat.


If you have to, get a big sheet of poster paper and place it on the floor. Repeat above procedure and trace the outline of your shoes. Now every time you squat, put your feet in the outline.


Or for multiple widths, do color coded outline pairs or angled lines so people with different sized shoes can use it.

[Darkius]

Makes sense to me... The only thing that strikes me as a bit odd is saying that the quads aren't the Achilles heel of the lift. For me they are, at least.

If your knees are not yet injured, a coach must point out your bad form. If they are already injured, your knee will tell you when your form is off.

[BeginnerGainz]

Wide stance anything is just gonna be more adductor, and less range of motion.

A good tool in the tool box but not so sure about longevity vs other squat patterns.

I would take advice from geared, juiced lifters with a grain of salt…

Reason being, have you ever seen anyone drop into a squat and then watch their hips shoot up before the bar barely moves? That is from weak quads.

The best way to strengthen the quads IS forward knee travel. As in, get your hamstrings on your calves. So heel elevated squats, low leg presses, etc.

Even leg extensions are good for strengthening the quads. The top ROM of the leg extension is basically PT 101 following knee surgery to strengthen the quads, particularly the VMO.

[Darkius]

Wide stance anything is just gonna be more adductor, and less range of motion.

A good tool in the tool box but not so sure about longevity vs other squat patterns.

I would take advice from geared, juiced lifters with a grain of salt…

Reason being, have you ever seen anyone drop into a squat and then watch their hips shoot up before the bar barely moves? That is from weak quads.

The best way to strengthen the quads IS forward knee travel. As in, get your hamstrings on your calves. So heel elevated squats, low leg presses, etc.

Even leg extensions are good for strengthening the quads. The top ROM of the leg extension is basically PT 101 following knee surgery to strengthen the quads, particularly the VMO.

Definitely true the quads engage more if the knee is in front of the toes.

I wonder if this good form rule is just like going below 90 degrees, that it only hurts for people who are already injured.


I would like to here more about the PT 101 though. If I currently have damage, are you saying I should do leg extensions and mostly in the top of the ROM?

[TolerantLactose]

Wide stance squats kill my hips. I don't have the anatomy for it.

[bLinkMoore]

Imagine a column that comes straight up from the edges of your shoes. Make sure your knee stays inside that column. My trainer told me, and my knees confirm it.

If your trainer is seriously telling you not to let your knees track out over your toes, do yourself a solid and get a new trainer.

As for the original thread, I don't think there's any real evidence that forward knee travel, when progressed as tolerated, is damaging to your knees. There seems to be some evidence that it actually prevents potential knee injury, since the supporting structures are strengthening along with the muscle.

Like spinal flexion during deadlifts. The main risk for injury there is suddenly loading your spine in a position that it's not used to, because everyone has been told not to bend their back when they lift, so they avoid it like the plague for years. It never gets a chance to strengthen, and then boom one day you max out your deadlift, your back flexes tremendously, and you mess yourself up.
Same goes for your knees. If you spend years avoiding letting your knees travel forward, they never strengthen properly to tolerate that motion. Then one day you DO squat deeper than usual, your tendons are suddenly stretched and loaded more than they've been before, and something tears.

Edit: I think the biggest thing to consider here is the progression. I could definitely see transitioning from being a couch potato to doing deep, explosive Olympic-style squats--dropping quickly, narrow stance, using the stretch reflex to explode off the bottom--would strain your knees too much, too quickly. Progressing slowly and listening to your body would avoid that risk, imo. Not a ton of studies done on it yet, unfortunately. But definitely an area that's getting more attention

[Darkius]

If your trainer is seriously telling you not to let your knees track out over your toes, do yourself a solid and get a new trainer.

As for the original thread, I don't think there's any real evidence that forward knee travel, when progressed as tolerated, is damaging to your knees. There seems to be some evidence that it actually prevents potential knee injury, since the supporting structures are strengthening along with the muscle.

Like spinal flexion during deadlifts. The main risk for injury there is suddenly loading your spine in a position that it's not used to, because everyone has been told not to bend their back when they lift, so they avoid it like the plague for years. It never gets a chance to strengthen, and then boom one day you max out your deadlift, your back flexes tremendously, and you mess yourself up.
Same goes for your knees. If you spend years avoiding letting your knees travel forward, they never strengthen properly to tolerate that motion. Then one day you DO squat deeper than usual, your tendons are suddenly stretched and loaded more than they've been before, and something tears.

Edit: I think the biggest thing to consider here is the progression. I could definitely see transitioning from being a couch potato to doing deep, explosive Olympic-style squats--dropping quickly, narrow stance, using the stretch reflex to explode off the bottom--would strain your knees too much, too quickly. Progressing slowly and listening to your body would avoid that risk, imo. Not a ton of studies done on it yet, unfortunately. But definitely an area that's getting more attention

I agree with what you said. Only problem is my knee is already injured. Crack in cartilage behind knee cap. So I don't know how to strengthen the forward position, or if it even can be. No pain if I keep my knee over my foot. Does this mean I'm setting myself up for injury later and might as well get a cadaver partial knee replacement sooner than later?

[BeginnerGainz]

I agree with what you said. Only problem is my knee is already injured. Crack in cartilage behind knee cap. So I don't know how to strengthen the forward position, or if it even can be. No pain if I keep my knee over my foot. Does this mean I'm setting myself up for injury later and might as well get a cadaver partial knee replacement sooner than later?

Nooooot really a question for a forum to answer…

[bLinkMoore]

^^^

Talk to an actual doctor. If you have cracked cartilage in your knee, to the point where you can't track your knee over your toes, you should have that treated ASAP

[MyEgoProblem]

It's gonna be different for everyone..
Hip and femur head morphology, tendon insertions and training history will dictate which stance/tech will be most tolerable for you.

More tollerable likely means more longevity with more room to train it hard.

What we can say is usually a middle of the road position will be the winner for being able to do more work.
Avoiding absolute end ranges of external or internal rotation at the hip, not leaning so far forward on the ties that your heels come up and not so far on your heels your centre of gravity is thrown off.

Variation of movement pattern will also help you avoid overuse injuries to your tendons, joints ect.

Tldr.
Depends but use different stances anyway.

[Ironface]

Re: toe angle. That is something I forgot to mention. When I do wide stance squats, I have to get my toes way out like a duck otherwise the movement feels incredibly awkward

With a closer stance, I can get away with a more moderate toe angle

[EliKoehn]

Re: toe angle. That is something I forgot to mention. When I do wide stance squats, I have to get my toes way out like a duck otherwise the movement feels incredibly awkward

With a closer stance, I can get away with a more moderate toe angle

Yep, exactly the same with me. It actually looks kind of stupid how fanned out my feet have to be on a wide stance.

[TheShadowMan]

Wide back squats feel terrible for me(probably my most disliked lift), force a substantial weight drop(which i'm open to if an exercise has more stress per pound), and instability in that position, I never really found any use for them. When doing glutes I stick with hip thrusts(sometimes zerchers) and side kicks and find them to be a more efficient way to hit the target without the pain or balance issues. Wides seem like a similar case to fronts, they work after you have the flexibility and conditioning built up(unless you use crossgrip or accessories like harnesses, then you can void the pre-requisites to an extent).