Are natural recovery limitations exaggerated?

[EliKoehn]

When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?

[MyEgoProblem]

Over training, in the gym rat terminology (not the medical) is a hugely over blown and over simplified.

Over use injuries are real
Not recovering is real
Not sleeping right is real
Not eating right is real

But People CAN train way harder than most expect.

The problem is that HARDER isn't always better, MORE isn't always better..

its about stimulus.
And putting the right weight on the bar and lifting it the right number of times.

That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day. That's just how bros do it to ENSURE they get enough stimulus cos they don't know when they actually get enough.

Tldr.
Its nuanced

[air2fakie]

That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day.

I’d go with balls to the wall, but I guess balls deep is applicable as well.

[Tommy W.]

Recovery will be different for different people and even different for the same person. There are a multitude of factors that will compromise recovery. Training intensity is just one.

[Darkius]

I was not listening closely enough to my legs since I thought inclined power walking was no biggy. Then one day the soreness hit me all at once.

I had to take off 7 days from legs to get back to normal. Lots of stretching, protein, ended my calorie deficit, stretching, hot tub, drinking water. Finally the soreness died down.

I'm glad I did not strain a muscle. I now know an hour per day of power walking is too much. My legs need days off just like arms do. Power walking is not a freebee.

[coachcalande]

Recovery will be different for different people and even different for the same person. There are a multitude of factors that will compromise recovery. Training intensity is just one.

Have you seen what Im
Putting my 55 year old body through?

[coachcalande]

Have you seen what Im
Putting my 55 year old body through?

This was actually meant for OP

[WolfRose7]

On the whole yes hugely.
Though failure training is also ridiculously overrated at the same time.

There's more extremists than there are people training logically in moderation based on their individually recovery limits, and even rarer adjusting the training based on their recovery that day and week.

Also the amount of people who think they have to undertrain because they are over a certain age is crazy.

[coachcalande]

When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?

For the sake of discussion- this morning in less than an hour, I did 8 sets of squats to failure adding 20
Pounds to the bar each set. I did a total of 67 squats or so.

Then I did four sets of front squats adding 10 lbs to the bar each set for about 28 more reps.

Then 4 sets of extensions and 4 leg curls.

Ill recover just fine because a) I have a rest day tomorrow and again on Sunday b) I eat 5 times a day and sleep 6-8 hours a night and nap if necessary

Ill do a similar workout Monday.

Im enjoying this.

[coachcalande]

For the sake of discussion- this morning in less than an hour, I did 8 sets of squats to failure adding 20
Pounds to the bar each set. I did a total of 67 squats or so.

Then I did four sets of front squats adding 10 lbs to the bar each set for about 28 more reps.

Then 4 sets of extensions and 4 leg curls.

Ill recover just fine because a) I have a rest day tomorrow and again on Sunday b) I eat 5 times a day and sleep 6-8 hours a night and nap if necessary

Ill do a similar workout Monday.

Im enjoying this.

Oh and Ill train my arms after work since I ran out of time this am. Figure 16-20
Total sets too!

[jaxqen]

Oh and Ill train my arms after work since I ran out of time this am. Figure 16-20
Total sets too!

Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

Good luck!

[coachcalande]

Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

Good luck!

Only takes 15-20 min to blow up arms and I enjoy it so might as well
Blast em!

[BeginnerGainz]

Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

Good luck!

I only do 6 working sets lol

And 4 working sets for triceps

[MyEgoProblem]

Imagine caring about how many curls others do 😜

Just get a sick pump, take some sets close to or to f and get out after smashing chins and your other work.

I usually do 7-10min density sets (as many amcraps as poss in 7 mins) twice per week. After doing that it back and hammies.. and trunk one a year.

Probably the must disgusting pump you will ever get.


FitNotes Workout - Thursday 7th October 2021

** Cg mag grip Pulldown **
- Total Sets: 11
- Total Reps: 124
- 60.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
- 70.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
- 80.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
- 80.0 kgs x 15 reps [Start timer asap]
- 80.0 kgs x 15 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 12 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 9 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 9 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 7 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 6 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 6 reps [@11]

** Prone Ham Curl **
- Total Sets: 11
- Total Reps: 121
- 40.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
- 45.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
- 50.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
- 40.0 kgs x 15 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 13 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 10 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 10 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 8 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 8 reps
- 40.0 kgs x 7 reps [@10]
- 40.0 kgs x 5 reps [@11] ded

** Cable Curl **
- Total Sets: 11
- Total Reps: 117
- 17.5 kgs x 15 reps 30sec rest
- 20.0 kgs x 15 reps 30sec rest
- 25.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
- 25.0 kgs x 15 reps [Timer started ASAP]
- 25.0 kgs x 13 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 10 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 8 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 8 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 7 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 5 reps
- 25.0 kgs x 6 reps [@11] 6seconds over

[mdonnelly80]

On the whole yes hugely.

There's more extremists than there are people training logically in moderation based on their individually recovery limits, and even rarer adjusting the training based on their recovery that day and week.

Agreed. Finding ways to train optimally, versus "maximally", is important. And, that requires some diligence and auto-regulation. This is also why I feel having some kind of weight progression in place is important; if you're adding weight to the bar, you're doing things right. If you're not, then you need to adjust what your doing in some manner.

[coachcalande]

I think it’s very important to monitor ENTHUSIASM for training….at least for me.

When it becomes drudgery, a day off or a shockingly different set/rep/movements workout is in order as well as maybe more calories and sleep.

Sometimes just going to play tennis or going for a bike ride is refreshing enough.

[EiFit91]

When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?

In my experience: muscles can take much more beating and adapt faster than you think, but connective tissue (tendons/ligaments) adapt way slower. So when I increase training volume it works for a while but eventually the joints start crying for a deload/lowering the volume.

Interestingly I think non-natties face the same issues but maybe there are ways around it or special vitamins to help?

Recovery capacity is definitely greater the more experienced you get.

I try to maximize the number of hard sets that I can sustain without having to deload all the time.

[mdonnelly80]

I think it’s very important to monitor ENTHUSIASM for training….at least for me.

When it becomes drudgery, a day off or a shockingly different set/rep/movements workout is in order as well as maybe more calories and sleep.

Sometimes just going to play tennis or going for a bike ride is refreshing enough.

Good point. I don't run into many of those days when I'm bulking or maintaining. But it happens when I'm cutting; there are days where I scrap the weight room and go for a long walk.

[nightanole]

In my experience: muscles can take much more beating and adapt faster than you think, but connective tissue (tendons/ligaments) adapt way slower. So when I increase training volume it works for a while but eventually the joints start crying for a deload/lowering the volume.

Interestingly I think non-natties face the same issues but maybe there are ways around it or special vitamins to help?

Recovery capacity is definitely greater the more experienced you get.

I try to maximize the number of hard sets that I can sustain without having to deload all the time.

And along those lines, you have joint size, insertions, etc. Team 6" wrists will have a much harder time vs 8". Same with insertions and tendons, if your calves are all tendon, you are going to get tendonitis much easier. Just like people who if they sneeze wrong, get bicep tendonitis.

Muscles recover the quickest, followed by tendons, then ligaments recover the slowest. Dam that non vascular tissue...

[palumboism]

Workload tolerance builds over time, most that overdo it do large workloads too soon, not that it always may be too much for them.

[marinevet63031]

Over training, in the gym rat terminology (not the medical) is a hugely over blown and over simplified.

Over use injuries are real
Not recovering is real
Not sleeping right is real
Not eating right is real

But People CAN train way harder than most expect.

The problem is that HARDER isn't always better, MORE isn't always better..

its about stimulus.
And putting the right weight on the bar and lifting it the right number of times.

That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day. That's just how bros do it to ENSURE they get enough stimulus cos they don't know when they actually get enough.

Tldr.
Its nuanced

I came in to say exactly this. It is all about the following in this order. How is your nutrition, how is your sleep, how are your reps. Are you doing slow negatives that are controlled or are you just letting the weight drop? Too many people ask questions without understanding the problem. I have been guilty of that so many times myself.

[coachcalande]

I did 47 sets today. All to failure. Feel great.

Let’s see what happens in four days when I hit upper body again.

#undereatingNOTovertraining

[BenMcLeodNZ]

I get DOMS every time after every exercise and I have been training for 20 years. I do 1 set training. People who do 1 set training realize it's the hardest of all.

So today I hit 3 muscle groups in 7 exercises (therefore 7 sets) and I won't do them again for 8-9 days and I will have DOMS for about half of that time

[BenMcLeodNZ]

Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

Good luck!

I do 1 superset for biceps and less than once a week and they float between 17 and 18 inches lifetime natty