Reply
Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2019
    Age: 51
    Posts: 3,161
    Rep Power: 14695
    EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) EliKoehn is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    EliKoehn is online now

    Are natural recovery limitations exaggerated?

    When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

    We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

    One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

    I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

    So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?
    Bench: 320
    Squat: 375
    Deadlift: 495

    "... But always, there remained, the discipline of steel!"
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2015
    Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
    Posts: 7,044
    Rep Power: 58871
    MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    MyEgoProblem is offline
    Over training, in the gym rat terminology (not the medical) is a hugely over blown and over simplified.

    Over use injuries are real
    Not recovering is real
    Not sleeping right is real
    Not eating right is real

    But People CAN train way harder than most expect.

    The problem is that HARDER isn't always better, MORE isn't always better..

    its about stimulus.
    And putting the right weight on the bar and lifting it the right number of times.

    That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day. That's just how bros do it to ENSURE they get enough stimulus cos they don't know when they actually get enough.

    Tldr.
    Its nuanced
    FMH crew - Couch.
    Washed up meathead

    I don't always reply to threads. Cos I don't always remember I posted in the first place😅
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2019
    Age: 51
    Posts: 5,583
    Rep Power: 18492
    air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) air2fakie is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    air2fakie is offline
    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day.
    I’d go with balls to the wall, but I guess balls deep is applicable as well.
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2006
    Age: 69
    Posts: 18,936
    Rep Power: 94929
    Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000) Tommy W. has a brilliant future. Third best rank! (+40000)
    Tommy W. is online now
    Recovery will be different for different people and even different for the same person. There are a multitude of factors that will compromise recovery. Training intensity is just one.
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2016
    Age: 37
    Posts: 1,701
    Rep Power: 3632
    Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) Darkius is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    Darkius is online now
    I was not listening closely enough to my legs since I thought inclined power walking was no biggy. Then one day the soreness hit me all at once.

    I had to take off 7 days from legs to get back to normal. Lots of stretching, protein, ended my calorie deficit, stretching, hot tub, drinking water. Finally the soreness died down.

    I'm glad I did not strain a muscle. I now know an hour per day of power walking is too much. My legs need days off just like arms do. Power walking is not a freebee.
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Recovery will be different for different people and even different for the same person. There are a multitude of factors that will compromise recovery. Training intensity is just one.
    Have you seen what Im
    Putting my 55 year old body through?
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Have you seen what Im
    Putting my 55 year old body through?
    This was actually meant for OP
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    Registered User WolfRose7's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2016
    Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
    Age: 28
    Posts: 11,136
    Rep Power: 52377
    WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) WolfRose7 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    WolfRose7 is offline
    On the whole yes hugely.
    Though failure training is also ridiculously overrated at the same time.

    There's more extremists than there are people training logically in moderation based on their individually recovery limits, and even rarer adjusting the training based on their recovery that day and week.

    Also the amount of people who think they have to undertrain because they are over a certain age is crazy.
    5 day full body crew

    FMH Crew, Sandbagging Mike Tuscherer Wannabee
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

    We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

    One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

    I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

    So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?

    For the sake of discussion- this morning in less than an hour, I did 8 sets of squats to failure adding 20
    Pounds to the bar each set. I did a total of 67 squats or so.

    Then I did four sets of front squats adding 10 lbs to the bar each set for about 28 more reps.

    Then 4 sets of extensions and 4 leg curls.

    Ill recover just fine because a) I have a rest day tomorrow and again on Sunday b) I eat 5 times a day and sleep 6-8 hours a night and nap if necessary

    Ill do a similar workout Monday.

    Im enjoying this.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    For the sake of discussion- this morning in less than an hour, I did 8 sets of squats to failure adding 20
    Pounds to the bar each set. I did a total of 67 squats or so.

    Then I did four sets of front squats adding 10 lbs to the bar each set for about 28 more reps.

    Then 4 sets of extensions and 4 leg curls.

    Ill recover just fine because a) I have a rest day tomorrow and again on Sunday b) I eat 5 times a day and sleep 6-8 hours a night and nap if necessary

    Ill do a similar workout Monday.

    Im enjoying this.

    Oh and Ill train my arms after work since I ran out of time this am. Figure 16-20
    Total sets too!
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    Registered User jaxqen's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2016
    Age: 33
    Posts: 853
    Rep Power: 5765
    jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000) jaxqen is a name known to all. (+5000)
    jaxqen is offline
    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Oh and Ill train my arms after work since I ran out of time this am. Figure 16-20
    Total sets too!
    Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

    Good luck!
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

    Good luck!

    Only takes 15-20 min to blow up arms and I enjoy it so might as well
    Blast em!
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2019
    Age: 51
    Posts: 7,055
    Rep Power: 41319
    BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) BeginnerGainz has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    BeginnerGainz is online now
    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

    Good luck!
    I only do 6 working sets lol

    And 4 working sets for triceps
    Age: 29

    "If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants"
    -Sir Isaac Newton
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2015
    Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
    Posts: 7,044
    Rep Power: 58871
    MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) MyEgoProblem has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    MyEgoProblem is offline
    Imagine caring about how many curls others do 😜

    Just get a sick pump, take some sets close to or to f and get out after smashing chins and your other work.

    I usually do 7-10min density sets (as many amcraps as poss in 7 mins) twice per week. After doing that it back and hammies.. and trunk one a year.

    Probably the must disgusting pump you will ever get.


    FitNotes Workout - Thursday 7th October 2021

    ** Cg mag grip Pulldown **
    - Total Sets: 11
    - Total Reps: 124
    - 60.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
    - 70.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
    - 80.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
    - 80.0 kgs x 15 reps [Start timer asap]
    - 80.0 kgs x 15 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 12 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 9 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 9 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 7 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 6 reps
    - 80.0 kgs x 6 reps [@11]

    ** Prone Ham Curl **
    - Total Sets: 11
    - Total Reps: 121
    - 40.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
    - 45.0 kgs x 15 reps 30s rest
    - 50.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
    - 40.0 kgs x 15 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 13 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 10 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 10 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 8 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 8 reps
    - 40.0 kgs x 7 reps [@10]
    - 40.0 kgs x 5 reps [@11] ded

    ** Cable Curl **
    - Total Sets: 11
    - Total Reps: 117
    - 17.5 kgs x 15 reps 30sec rest
    - 20.0 kgs x 15 reps 30sec rest
    - 25.0 kgs x 15 reps [PR] [@8]
    - 25.0 kgs x 15 reps [Timer started ASAP]
    - 25.0 kgs x 13 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 10 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 8 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 8 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 7 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 5 reps
    - 25.0 kgs x 6 reps [@11] 6seconds over
    FMH crew - Couch.
    Washed up meathead

    I don't always reply to threads. Cos I don't always remember I posted in the first place😅
    Reply With Quote

  15. #15
    Registered User mdonnelly80's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2013
    Location: Billings, Montana, United States
    Age: 41
    Posts: 840
    Rep Power: 4054
    mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    mdonnelly80 is offline
    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    On the whole yes hugely.

    There's more extremists than there are people training logically in moderation based on their individually recovery limits, and even rarer adjusting the training based on their recovery that day and week.
    Agreed. Finding ways to train optimally, versus "maximally", is important. And, that requires some diligence and auto-regulation. This is also why I feel having some kind of weight progression in place is important; if you're adding weight to the bar, you're doing things right. If you're not, then you need to adjust what your doing in some manner.
    "The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." -Henry Rollins
    Reply With Quote

  16. #16
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    I think it’s very important to monitor ENTHUSIASM for training….at least for me.

    When it becomes drudgery, a day off or a shockingly different set/rep/movements workout is in order as well as maybe more calories and sleep.

    Sometimes just going to play tennis or going for a bike ride is refreshing enough.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  17. #17
    Registered User EiFit91's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2020
    Age: 51
    Posts: 1,228
    Rep Power: 6371
    EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000) EiFit91 is a name known to all. (+5000)
    EiFit91 is offline
    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    When DOMS isn't experienced anymore, and you feel strong and vigorous and want to put in a lot of time and work in the gym on a regular, routine basis with only one or two rest days, is this necessarily going to result in burnout? Is it liable to make you smaller?

    We have programs carefully balancing volume and intensity because of the inherent recovery limitations of the natural lifter; but if the desire to train itself as well as performance are the reliable barometers here rather than DOMS, wouldn't "ad libidum" training in this way not push you too far past your recovery abilities?

    One worry, however, is that a true 100% on Monday might mean only 50% on Tuesday, when you could have gone 80% both days and yielded a higher average. Yet, it seems to be a dogmatic assumption that recovery capacity is more or less flat and static by the time someone is intermediate. My only data are anecdotal, but my ability to recover has increased fairly linearly with my lifts themselves, so if that holds true in general, pushing yourself really hard whenever you feel like it and intuitively training whatever exercises seem appropriate without regard for programming, may not be a bad move.

    I just get the impression that the "Woah, hold on, you better only do 5 sets because you can't recover from more than that" is perhaps a little bit too cautious. Obviously, the natural lifter is severely disadvantaged against the enhanced, but it seems to hold true in my own experience and that of many other (natural) lifters I know and train with, that recovery capacities are plastic and malleable just like strength itself.

    So, what is the research basis for this idea and what are your thoughts?
    In my experience: muscles can take much more beating and adapt faster than you think, but connective tissue (tendons/ligaments) adapt way slower. So when I increase training volume it works for a while but eventually the joints start crying for a deload/lowering the volume.

    Interestingly I think non-natties face the same issues but maybe there are ways around it or special vitamins to help?

    Recovery capacity is definitely greater the more experienced you get.

    I try to maximize the number of hard sets that I can sustain without having to deload all the time.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 10-08-2021 at 03:52 AM.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

    - Richard Feynman
    Reply With Quote

  18. #18
    Registered User mdonnelly80's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2013
    Location: Billings, Montana, United States
    Age: 41
    Posts: 840
    Rep Power: 4054
    mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) mdonnelly80 is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    mdonnelly80 is offline
    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I think it’s very important to monitor ENTHUSIASM for training….at least for me.

    When it becomes drudgery, a day off or a shockingly different set/rep/movements workout is in order as well as maybe more calories and sleep.

    Sometimes just going to play tennis or going for a bike ride is refreshing enough.
    Good point. I don't run into many of those days when I'm bulking or maintaining. But it happens when I'm cutting; there are days where I scrap the weight room and go for a long walk.
    "The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." -Henry Rollins
    Reply With Quote

  19. #19
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2010
    Age: 43
    Posts: 9,002
    Rep Power: 14850
    nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) nightanole is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    nightanole is offline
    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    In my experience: muscles can take much more beating and adapt faster than you think, but connective tissue (tendons/ligaments) adapt way slower. So when I increase training volume it works for a while but eventually the joints start crying for a deload/lowering the volume.

    Interestingly I think non-natties face the same issues but maybe there are ways around it or special vitamins to help?

    Recovery capacity is definitely greater the more experienced you get.

    I try to maximize the number of hard sets that I can sustain without having to deload all the time.
    And along those lines, you have joint size, insertions, etc. Team 6" wrists will have a much harder time vs 8". Same with insertions and tendons, if your calves are all tendon, you are going to get tendonitis much easier. Just like people who if they sneeze wrong, get bicep tendonitis.

    Muscles recover the quickest, followed by tendons, then ligaments recover the slowest. Dam that non vascular tissue...
    Reply With Quote

  20. #20
    Lemme tell ya sumthin.... palumboism's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2008
    Posts: 547
    Rep Power: 3053
    palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500) palumboism is a glorious beacon of knowledge. (+2500)
    palumboism is offline
    Workload tolerance builds over time, most that overdo it do large workloads too soon, not that it always may be too much for them.
    Reply With Quote

  21. #21
    PNBA Pro marinevet63031's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2011
    Location: Florissant, Missouri, United States
    Posts: 1,845
    Rep Power: 39588
    marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) marinevet63031 has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    marinevet63031 is offline
    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Over training, in the gym rat terminology (not the medical) is a hugely over blown and over simplified.

    Over use injuries are real
    Not recovering is real
    Not sleeping right is real
    Not eating right is real

    But People CAN train way harder than most expect.

    The problem is that HARDER isn't always better, MORE isn't always better..

    its about stimulus.
    And putting the right weight on the bar and lifting it the right number of times.

    That doesn't mean balls deep, beyond failure every day. That's just how bros do it to ENSURE they get enough stimulus cos they don't know when they actually get enough.

    Tldr.
    Its nuanced
    I came in to say exactly this. It is all about the following in this order. How is your nutrition, how is your sleep, how are your reps. Are you doing slow negatives that are controlled or are you just letting the weight drop? Too many people ask questions without understanding the problem. I have been guilty of that so many times myself.
    *Cardinals, Blues, Chiefs, MLS *
    *INBA/PNBA - PNBA (Professional) Wheelchair Natural Bodybuilder*
    *Founder - Adaptive Fitness*
    *Disabled US Marine Corps Combat Veteran 1992-1997*
    *Hogan is G.O.A.T., Ultimate Warrior, Hart & Sting fanatic*
    Reply With Quote

  22. #22
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2015
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,005
    Rep Power: 7073
    coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000) coachcalande is a name known to all. (+5000)
    coachcalande is offline
    I did 47 sets today. All to failure. Feel great.

    Let’s see what happens in four days when I hit upper body again.

    #undereatingNOTovertraining
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

    Every workout is GAME DAY!
    Reply With Quote

  23. #23
    Kiwi Battler BenMcLeodNZ's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2015
    Posts: 3,482
    Rep Power: 13805
    BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    BenMcLeodNZ is offline
    I get DOMS every time after every exercise and I have been training for 20 years. I do 1 set training. People who do 1 set training realize it's the hardest of all.

    So today I hit 3 muscle groups in 7 exercises (therefore 7 sets) and I won't do them again for 8-9 days and I will have DOMS for about half of that time
    Reply With Quote

  24. #24
    Kiwi Battler BenMcLeodNZ's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2015
    Posts: 3,482
    Rep Power: 13805
    BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) BenMcLeodNZ is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    BenMcLeodNZ is offline
    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Makes me laugh when I see other workouts with only 2 sets for bis... in the entire week.

    Good luck!
    I do 1 superset for biceps and less than once a week and they float between 17 and 18 inches lifetime natty
    Reply With Quote

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts