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  1. #1
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Does keto cut out whole food groups?

    Fruits and grains have sugar and starch. They also have a wide range of nutrients, some of which might not have been isolated and identified yet. Vitamin pills don't cover everything.


    So if carbs are bad, and if keto cuts out fruit and grains, then how is the loss of nutrient variety justified?



    I say just avoid bleached grains, processed fruits, and anything with ingredients from sugar beats, sugar cain, or corn syrup.

    If a diabetic is afraid of fruit, take some fiber powder with the fruit, but don't cut out the food group.




    Please educate me if I'm wrong.
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    Registered User EliKoehn's Avatar
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    I'm not the most educated poster, but the keto diet has a poor reputation on this forum, primarily for the fact that it claims to circumvent a mandatory caloric deficit via the ostensible shortcut of eliminating carbs nearly altogether - something which tends to coincide with an overall reduction in calories anyway, yet masked by the means by which that is done (especially the swift loss of water weight concomitant with healthy glycogen stores, an asset in athletics in fitness and near-immediately regained upon resumption of normal eating).

    Secondly, the ill-repute seems to stem from the fact that carbohydrates being "bad" is a fundamental misconception, which compels hopeful people to undergo the keto diet in the first place on a wrong footing. As you point out, the benefits of carbs as a source of energy besides, fiber and many vitamins and micronutrients essential to long-term health are going to be hard to come by.

    I love meat and personally hardly ever crave sweets or lots of carbs, but a mixed diet is obviously superior to keto.
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    I lost 15% of my bodyweight on keto, then stalled. That's when I started lifting. I also joined this forum the same day. It was opening day of dove season.
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    I can only speak anecdotally as I'm not a guru. I've dropped weight in several ways, one of them being a ketogenic diet. I disliked keto for a number reasons: it wasn't sustainable, it was tedious, and cutting carbs that low wasn't necessary to lose fat. And, yes, I did feel nutritionally deficient as I was limiting vegetables that were higher in carbs as well as grains, berries and fruit. I followed it for two months and took off a significant amount of BF but it wasn't worth it for me.
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Fruits and grains have sugar and starch. They also have a wide range of nutrients, some of which might not have been isolated and identified yet. Vitamin pills don't cover everything.


    So if carbs are bad, and if keto cuts out fruit and grains, then how is the loss of nutrient variety justified?



    I say just avoid bleached grains, processed fruits, and anything with ingredients from sugar beats, sugar cain, or corn syrup.

    If a diabetic is afraid of fruit, take some fiber powder with the fruit, but don't cut out the food group.




    Please educate me if I'm wrong.

    Carbs aren’t bad. Only middle aged moms believe that.

    You can’t live off of carbs while in a state of ketosis and expect stay in it.

    Keto isn’t a diet plan like paleo or the cereal diet or whatever else. It’s an actual metabolic state that your body goes into.

    It’s as simple as that.

    If you’re doing keto and want those foods, then have them, in very small portions.
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    Fruits and grains have sugar and starch. They also have a wide range of nutrients, some of which might not have been isolated and identified yet. Vitamin pills don't cover everything.


    So if carbs are bad, and if keto cuts out fruit and grains, then how is the loss of nutrient variety justified?



    I say just avoid bleached grains, processed fruits, and anything with ingredients from sugar beats, sugar cain, or corn syrup.

    If a diabetic is afraid of fruit, take some fiber powder with the fruit, but don't cut out the food group.




    Please educate me if I'm wrong.
    Who said carbs are bad?
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  7. #7
    Registered User kennycroxdale's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I'm not the most educated poster, but the keto diet has a poor reputation on this forum, primarily for the fact that it claims to circumvent a mandatory caloric deficit via the ostensible shortcut of eliminating carbs nearly altogether - something which tends to coincide with an overall reduction in calories anyway, yet masked by the means by which that is done (especially the swift loss of water weight concomitant with healthy glycogen stores, an asset in athletics in fitness and near-immediately regained upon resumption of normal eating).
    The Ketogenic Diet

    I have been on the Ketogenic Diet since July 2016 due to a metabolic condition. I have all the toys to measure and determine how I am doing: Blood Ketometer, Glycometer, and a Breath Ketometer.,

    With that said, let break some of this information down...

    Weight Loss

    1) Calorie Deficit

    Yes, part of the reason the Ketogenic Diet is effective is satiety; is staves off hunger. You tend to consume fewer calories. Thus, losing weight.

    Water Weight Loss

    Yes, there is initial water weight loss with a decrease in body weight.

    However, once Keto Adaption occurs, the body restores water weight; which is stored in the muscles. (Research Drs. Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney).

    Thus, what ever water weight was lost during the first week or two is regained.

    Muscle Glycogen Restoration

    Research also demonstrated that Muscle Glycogen Restoration occurs once Keto Adaptation takes place.

    Keto Adapted individual have virtually the same amount of Muscle Glycogen as those on a High Carbohydrate Diet.

    Keto Adapation

    One Keto Adaptation trains the body to prefer and use ketone over glucose.

    Glucose becomes the secondary fuel source.

    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Secondly, the ill-repute seems to stem from the fact that carbohydrates being "bad" is a fundamental misconception, which compels hopeful people to undergo the keto diet in the first place on a wrong footing. As you point out, the benefits of carbs as a source of energy besides, fiber and many vitamins and micronutrients essential to long-term health are going to be hard to come by.
    Carbohydrates

    Yes, the simplistic view of individual who lack knowledge in regard to the Ketogenic Diet is that carbohydrates are bad.

    With that said, simple sugars and high glucose and insulin index carbohydrate consumption is an issue.

    As per Dr Jonny Bowden (PhD Nutrition) foods of color (vegetable like green beans, broccoli, etc) are the best choices.

    Fuel For Energy

    Ketones provide fuel for energy, as well as carbohydrates.

    With that in mind, let look at...

    The Energy Systems

    1) Phosphagen Energy System

    Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training runs off ATP, the Phosphagen Energy System.

    Exercise, in the above listed Strengths, that are preformed in 15 seconds, primarily use ATP; not glucose or ketones.

    Thus, an individual on a Keto Diet or Standard High Carbohydrate Diet will perform equally as well in sport such as: Powerlifting, Olympic Lifting, Sprints, etc.

    Research has demonstrated this.

    2) Glycolytic Energy System

    Sports or activities that utilize The Glycolytic Energy System need to maintain a High Carbohydrate Diet; Bodybuilding, Soccer, Basekball, etc are examples.

    The Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Ketogenic Diet Protocol

    For individuals on a Ketogenic Diet that interested in Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training, this is the key...

    Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

    One of the issues with Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training is that size is developed at the expense of strength; when it is solely performed.

    Research by Dr Jonnathan Oliver determined that Cluster Set Training ensured gains in muscle mass while maintaining and developing Power and Strength.

    Cluster Sets involve short rest period between cluster of repetitions. These short reset period ensure ATP Muscle Restoration. This allows athletes to produce more power and strength with cluster repetitions.

    3) Oxidative Energy System

    The Oxidative Energy System involve Endurance Sports. This is where the majority of research has occur with the Ketogenic Diet.

    The Oxidative Energy System utilizes ketones for energy than the other systems.

    Research has demonstrated that the Ketogenic Diet protects and preserves glycogen. Marathon Runner usually "Bonk" around the 18 mile mark.

    Research with Keto Adapted Endurance demonstrated that it eliminated "Bonking" or minimized it with these athletes.

    Vegetables On The Ketogenic Diet

    Vegetable are recommended and allowed.

    Vegetables such as green beans, broccoli, cauliflower (cauliflower rice or potatoes), celery, tomatoes, spinach, mushrooms, etc.

    All of these vegetables are low in carbohydrates and have a very low glycemic/insulin index.

    Diet Failure

    Around 90% of individual who go on any diet fail.

    That in part because most individual don't have the will power to maintain it.

    They also lack knowledge in how to make is work.

    And finally, the more restrictive a diet is, the less likely they are will be able to stick with it/maintain it. This is one of the main issue with the Ketogenic Diet and the Vegan Diet.

    Kenny Croxdale
    Last edited by kennycroxdale; 11-07-2021 at 06:06 AM.
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  8. #8
    Registered User kennycroxdale's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    So if carbs are bad, and if keto cuts out fruit and grains, then how is the loss of nutrient variety justified?
    Misinformation

    All carbohydrates is an over simplified statement based on a lack of knowledge regarding The Ketogenic Diet.


    Due to a metabolic condition, I have been on The Ketogenic Diet since July 2016.

    Like many, I thought I needed to avoid carbohydrates and fruits; which is incorrect.

    Vegetable and Fruits are allowed on the Ketogenic Diet that low in carbohydrates and have a low glycemic/insulin index.

    As per Dr Jonny Bowden, vegetable of color are on the list: green beans, broccoli, cauliflower (cauliflower rice or potatoes), celery, tomatoes, spinach, mushrooms, etc.

    Fruits such as blackberries, blueberries. avocados. strawberries, tomatoes, raspberries. etc.

    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    If a diabetic is afraid of fruit, take some fiber powder with the fruit, but don't cut out the food group.
    Fiber

    Yes, fiber will slow it down.

    However, consuming fruit after a meal with protein and fat will, as well.

    Even better is to select fruits that are low in carbohydrates and have a low glycemic/insulin index.

    One of the issue with a banana is it has no fiber and it has a high glycemic index. It basically like eating sugar.

    That doesn't mean you can ever have a banana. It just means there are better choices and if you do have bananas, limit them.

    On another noted, research shows that fiber is overrated. Dr Paul Mason provides some interesting research on that in one of his podcast.

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  9. #9
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    Keto is not just a fad. When fat cells shrink, water takes their place and the body eventually flushes the system of this water and all of a sudden, overnight, you look much leaner. This often happens with a carb-up meal. If I had to guess, several of the pounds you lost from a "balanced" diet were actually lost while on keto, and didn't flush out until your balance diet which is leading you to believe balanced diet worked better.

    That said, a balanced diet will lose weight just fine. Keto isn't magical, it is just easier to adhere to from a hunger perspective. However, if you are happier on a balanced diet, then that is better for you.

    Keto is probably best for non-active people. For active people, get this can get muddy... Endurance sports work well with keto, but explosive sports do not. Additionally, keto is often very anti-inflammatory, so endurance training has less aches and pain.

    Keto works great for many people. I often go keto for 2 months a year. I don't have any of the problems you are reporting, nor do I understand how you possible couldn't get enough potassium on greens. If you truly at as many as you said, then your cramping had nothing to do with potassium.
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